What about the Jesuits

[Kitty_Chan]

For another topic

I remember yrs ago watching The Mission I really enjoyed it but cannot remember much now.

But I remember someone saying at the time “ohhhh the Jesuits they were” (cant remember exactly) but mean or something like not to be challenged, you didnt want to cross them.

Just wondering what caused this feeling, what was some of history of it??

(someone mentioned Jesuits lately and that made me remember)

 

[Contarini]

The Jesuits were founded as a renewal movement within Catholicism. But they were founded shortly after Protestantism had erupted onto the scene, so very quickly they became involved in anti-Protestant activities. In England, the Jesuits were the spearheads of the movement to re-Catholicize the country. Some of them (by no means all) were involved in political plots to overthrow Elizabeth (who was not a legitimate monarch in their eyes because Henry had annulled his first marriage without Papal approval in order to marry Elizabeth’s mother–obviously Catholics didn’t consider this second marriage valid). Government propaganda painted the Jesuits as ruthless schemers who would use any method to advance their ideology, and that characterization became widespread in English-speaking Protestantism. In Eastern and Central Europe, they were more successful, setting up schools that were so good that even Protestants sent their kids there–these kids then were influenced by Catholic ideas and grew up to take influential positions within society. Jesuits tended to be politically savvy and pragmatic. Protestants (and some Catholics as well) saw them as willing to justify any means that advanced Catholicism. I don’t think that was fair–arguably they tended to be a bit too flexible, but that doesn’t mean that they had no principles. Most of them were men of great courage and in many cases saintliness–there are many Jesuit martyrs, such as St. Isaac Jogues, who returned to preach to the Iroquois even after they had already tortured him horribly (they wound up torturing him again and killing him).

Edwin

 

[Lazerlike42]

What’s the deal with the Jesuits nowadays, though? From what I understand, they are really dissenters from the Magisterium and more or less want to run things their own way. But then I see a guy like Fr. Pacwa who seems very faithful.

 

[Brain]

Like all churchmen, only the really emabrassing jesuits get attention outside of EWTN. in general the few (2) jesuits i have met are very holy and orthodox servants of God, and slightly annoyed by the “bad press” they get.

 

[scylla]

I think Contarini sums it up nicely and pretty much explains what is up with Jesuits lately.

This tendancy to be flexible in order to spread the faith has led to a little bit too much flexibility and confused that, instead to some Jesuits almost compromising the truth in their flexibility.

We do have some great Jesuits out there like Father Mitch Pacwa.

God Bless
Scylla

(on break from debating with dispensationalists for one night)

 

[George_Waters]

Brain:

Like all churchmen, only the really emabrassing jesuits get attention outside of EWTN. in general the few (2) jesuits i have met are very holy and orthodox servants of God, and slightly annoyed by the “bad press” they get.

I agree!

 

[Kitty_Chan]

scylla:

I
(on break from debating with dispensationalists for one night)

too funny also why I posted the question not re dispensationalists but just a change of topic.

Thanks Contarini interesting, so see if I got this straight. They wanted to advance catholism so they were agressive and in that also savy (what was that to be smart like the serpant??)

But ended up stepping on toes and getting this repution, so it wasnt so much they had bad teachings just non main stream methods??

And it seems totally decicated to God. (didnt the movie end with the natives putting the fellow on the cross over the falls?) who was that? and the guy that went next. I wonder if I should watch again or just get a real book rather than Hollywood

also why were they saintless because they were a offshoot of the church but they were pushing catholism??? seems odd.

last thought about the churchmen getting bad press, doesnt ANY believer in God get bad press?? Look at the hoo ha over Mels Passion, the press was so “annoyed” when they couldnt get in there first. But it didnt stop them slamming it even if they hadnt seen . Or the bit about offending Jews etc. But the press loves to slam any believer be it protestant or catholic thats a boat we all share.

 

[Contarini]

I didn’t say they were saintless. I said many of them were men of great saintliness. There are many Jesuit saints. I have a book called Jesuit Saints and Martyrs with hundreds of entries.

I am not in a position to pass judgment on the methods of the Jesuits. I have not studied the more controversial parts of their history in detail. I’ve read John O’Malley’s excellent book The First Jesuits and I know some basic stuff about what happened later. I can tell you that they were widely criticized and seen as overly pragmatic in matters of ethics, but I’m not trying to pass judgment on them. I’m not Catholic, so I’m in no position to pass judgment on their doctrine.

Edwin

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Contarini:

I didn’t say they were saintless. I said many of them were men of great saintliness. There are many Jesuit saints. I have a book called Jesuit Saints and Martyrs with hundreds of entries.

:whacky: oops! maybe my eyes are getting bad, yea thats it! that makes more sense, sorry.

oh thanks I ask not to pass judgement just something I was curious about. But I find that once one does look at things and events what really happened starts to slowly surface. We really dont know “the half of it” as the saying goes.

This sort of thing facsinates me as I induldge in the “wondering” occasionally of what Heaven would be like. There is so many stories of what people have done over the centuries it will be amazing to find out that other half.

 

[Zooey]

St Isaac Jogues, & other Jesuits like him, were the first to bring Christianity to the area where I live…There were many who were tortured,& killed, or made slaves, by the Indian tribes they came to tell about our Lord.
Looking into these men’s lives gives you a totally different view of the Jesuits. They were so, extraordianrily courageous in evangelizing the people of the Americas.

 

[JOHNYJ]

Kitty Chan:

For another topic

I remember yrs ago watching The Mission I really enjoyed it but cannot remember much now.

But I remember someone saying at the time “ohhhh the Jesuits they were” (cant remember exactly) but mean or something like not to be challenged, you didnt want to cross them.

Just wondering what caused this feeling, what was some of history of it??

(someone mentioned Jesuits lately and that made me remember)

Ah memories,the Jesuits use to be called "the Marine corp. " of the Catholic church.Because of their education and their special attachent to the Pope.Nowdays they wouldn’t be compared to the National guard.
The 1960’s& 70’s was very damaging to the
Jesuits Our Holy Father John Paul II had to personaly remove the Father general of the jesuits and install an Apostolic administrator.
He even for a time stoped allowing them to take the speial Oath to the Pope that was one of their hall marks. They have since reclaimed their autonomy but.Not their reputation.

 

[shawnbm]

scylla:

I think Contarini sums it up nicely and pretty much explains what is up with Jesuits lately.

This tendancy to be flexible in order to spread the faith has led to a little bit too much flexibility and confused that, instead to some Jesuits almost compromising the truth in their flexibility.

We do have some great Jesuits out there like Father Mitch Pacwa.

God Bless
Scylla

(on break from debating with dispensationalists for one night)

I agree with wht you have said about Fr. Pacwa but also was just wondering, is Fr. Jorge Loring (a Spanish priest on EWTN early in the morning on either “Para Salvarte” and/or “Conozca Primerso Su Fe CAtolica” a Jesuit or a member of a different order? Thanks.