What about timbrels and cymbals?(All peoples, clap your hands)

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From Judith 16, this morning’s canticle…

Strike up the instruments,
a song to my God with timbrels,
chant to the Lord with cymbals.
Sing to him a new song, exalt and acclaim his name.

A new hymn I will sing to my God.
O Lord, great are you and glorious, wonderful in power and unsurpassable.

Hey, where are the cymbals and timbrels, that’s what I want to know?! And, from this, it sounds like having new types of hymns is alright.

And, from Psalm 47, also in today’s morning prayers:

All peoples, clap your hands,
cry to God with shouts of joy!
For the Lord, the Most High, we must fear,
great king over all the earth

Gee, it sounds like hand clapping and joyful, uplifting hymns, with instruments other than the organ, are actually encouraged! Halleluya!!! :clapping: :dancing: :love:
 
Psalms 150:
1 Hallelujah! Praise God in his holy sanctuary; give praise in the mighty dome of heaven. 2 Give praise for his mighty deeds, praise him for his great majesty. 3 Give praise with blasts upon the horn, praise him with harp and lyre. 4 Give praise with tambourines and dance, praise him with flutes and strings. 5 Give praise with crashing cymbals, praise him with sounding cymbals. 6 Let everything that has breath give praise to the LORD! Hallelujah!!:dancing:
 
At my Parish we use other instruments, along with the organ. We still sing the traditional hymns, but also some new things as well. Our Choir Director and Pastoral Associate likes to “jazz” things up a bit, now and then. She chooses some wonderful songs for the choir to sing. In fact, at the Easter Mass this past April, the choir sang a song during Holy Communion that got the whole congregation clapping along (not those still waiting to receive, though-those who had already sat down). It wasn’t loud and bousterous, but it had a great African beat to it-like Ladysmith Black Mambazo (I hope I spelled that right). It was really great and, since it was the first time I could receive Holy Communion, it made it that much more special.

As a former Protestant I don’t really mind the old, traditional songs and styles of worship-because it’s pretty much all new to me. What I had to get used to was the congregation not singing in four-part harmonies, which I was raised on. I can read music very well, though, so I am grateful that I can follow along pretty easily because most of the songs I’ve never heard of or sang before. Catholics and Protestants don’t usually sing the same songs. There are a few exceptions (like Christmas Carols and such), but not very many.

Scout :tiphat:
 
I don’t have a problem with diferent instruments but please no dancing girls, or theater.
 
If you wish to go Sola Scriptura–and Old Testamentize while you’re at it–best be prepared to do things in your life very differently. Do not work from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. Tithe your 10%. Keep a kosher kitchen. Keep your distance from Gentiles, and do not intermarry with them. Oh, if you have a skin rash, present yourself to the priest. . .get the drift?

On the other hand, if you recognize that the keys Christ gave to Peter means that Peter has authority over how we worship, too, then perhaps we should reference the actual words of Vatican II which tell us that the organ has pride of place among instruments to be used at Mass, that the faithful should know all their parts in Latin, and that likewise Chant is the one form of music which by it’s very nature is most suitable for Mass.

Far as I can see, Vatican II is still just sitting on paper. It hasn’t even been implemented yet.
 
Dear blue,
Hey, I just wanted to share from today’s Liturgy of the Hours morning prayer, that’s all. I thought that was the prayer of the whole Apostolic Church!

I noticed that this morning’s prayer kind of had a theme to it. A ‘sing a new song of joy to the Lord’ theme. I don’t think I said anything about sola scriptora in my post, did I?

Did you guys hear me mention that everyone should be kosher and offer unblemished lambs on an altar???
 
I love the music we have at Mass. Very traditional and reverent. But, sometimes, just sometimes, I kinda wish we could jazz it up a bit.

I “snuck” (is that a word? lol) to a Baptist church and they were sings a song called Father Abraham. I loved it, I mean the people there were really getting into that song. How many of us have gone to Masses where the singing was, well how should I put it,A Little Lack Luster? Only thing about this song is, get a medical check up first 😛 This song requires alot of physical movements.

But, that being said, no matter how lackluster our singing might be, there is no better way to worship our Lord then in Holy Mass. 👍

Whats a “Timbrel”?
 
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mkw:
Whats a “Timbrel”?
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From Nelson’s Illustrated Bible Dictionary:

MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS OF THE BIBLE
Code: 
Tambourine (see Timbrel).
Timbrel. A percussion instrument which was carried and beaten by hand. Considered inappropriate for the Temple, it was probably played primarily by women <Ps. 68:25>. The timbrel may have been excluded from the Temple instruments because of its great popularity with the Canaanite fertility cults. Among the Hebrew people, it was associated with merrymaking and processions <Gen. 31:27>. Remnants of timbrels with pieces of bronze inserted in the rim have been uncovered by archaeologists. Thus, the instrument could be shaken as well as beaten.
For blueyedmule: They had organs in the first century???

DaveBj
 
The reason I raised the shadow of Sola Scriptura is because I was seeing applied to liturgical practice, development, and discipline a kind of “Bible-only” way of thinking. Ie, “it says this in Psalms, so why don’t we do it?” and now, “There were organs in the first century?”.

No, there were not organs in the first century, neither was their a Ludwig drum kit or a compiled bible, and in fact the doctrine of the Holy Spirit was not yet defined in the first century. Just as the Church developed–grew organically as it were–in the first century in belief, so it has grown in liturgical practice and liturgical discipline.

I was raised and spent about 33 years of my life as a Fundamentalist Protestant. Our battle cry was “returning and restoring the Church to the Church of Acts”, ie the church of the first century. You might as well try to wedge a 2000 year old redwood back into it’s seed. The Church has grown and matured. Vatican 2 gives us concrete directives in regards to liturgy which have been largely abandoned–in fact, were never implemented. Those were the items I listed–that we should all know our parts of the Mass in Latin, that the organ has pride of place as well as Chant as the music of choice for liturgy. While it seems like a great idea to find something in the Old Testament and say, “Why don’t we make that our rule of faith!”, the first century Church already examined that and decided not to. In fact, all they were willing to saddle the gentile converts to fledgling Christianity with is to abstain from drinking of blood and meat sacrificed to idols–the same thing all of humanity has always been bound to through God’s covenant with Noah. While tambarines and cymbals have their place in celebrations, they are not appropriate to Mass. What happens at Mass? We enter into Calvary, we participate in his sacrifice. It is appropriate to be somber and reflective. Yes, I know the big emphasis these days tends to be on “celebration”, and within bounds we do celebrate Mass as well, because Christ didn’t stay in the tomb. However, balance is important and balance has already been lost completely in terms of liturgy.

mule
 
Like the song says,“The Spirit is a’movin, moving all over this land.” As our past history shows there is almost as much that changes and develops as stays frozen in time. Praise God for life and change. Praise Him for the Spirit sent to energize and move us.
 
Songs of jubilation are okay, BUT should be saved for outside Mass. We are supposed to reflect on Jesus DYING for us, not clapping and smaking around tin instruments. We should be on our knees thankig God with tears and sunken hearts at Mass. Jesus DIED for us on calvary because we are wretched sinners, the least we can do is show some respect for that for an on hour.
Would you play tha tamborine and clap your hands at your parents funeral?..NEGATIVE!..and how much more important and worthy of the utmost respect is the sacrafice of Jesus? Keep the jubilation for after Mass.
I can’t stand how people get mad when disrespect is shown during the Star Spangled Banner yet they don’t care if we don’t do things right at Holy Mass. People died for this country and we should show our respect…GOD ALMIGHTY died for US, and for that we should be even more respecful…because of HIM, we, and lets not forget to mention all those who died for our country can now go to HEAVEN.

Mass is supposed to be a solemn event and we should reflect.

Besides tamborines are not real instruments:nope: … Outside of Mass Cymbols are okay but have to be attached to a drumset.

Yes, be jubilent and joyful and sing God’s praises, but save them for when we are not at Mass…
This is not a bad attitude on my behalf, it is respect…

What’s that you say? you still want songs of jubilation so we can be happy like the Protestants…no problem! That is why we have 168 hours in a week…1-2 hours at Holy Mass minumum and then at least 166 left to have any other type of music you want at an organized church function even, there is nothing wrong with starting a “glory and praise” prayer group for after church is over (provided you remain Catholic and don’t get caught up in the craze)…people in the US want to WASTE time watching football when they get home from Mass instead of being jubilant so I doubt that would happen…I hope this “football attitude” changes and we spend more time on God.
 
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flick427:
Songs of jubilation are okay, BUT should be saved for outside Mass. We are supposed to reflect on Jesus DYING for us, not clapping and smaking around tin instruments. We should be on our knees thankig God with tears and sunken hearts at Mass. Jesus DIED for us on calvary because we are wretched sinners, the least we can do is show some respect for that for an on hour.
Would you play tha tamborine and clap your hands at your parents funeral?..NEGATIVE!..and how much more important and worthy of the utmost respect is the sacrafice of Jesus? Keep the jubilation for after Mass.
I can’t stand how people get mad when disrespect is shown during the Star Spangled Banner yet they don’t care if we don’t do things right at Holy Mass. People died for this country and we should show our respect…GOD ALMIGHTY died for US, and for that we should be even more respecful…because of HIM, we, and lets not forget to mention all those who died for our country can now go to HEAVEN.

Mass is supposed to be a solemn event and we should reflect.

Besides tamborines are not real instruments:nope: … Outside of Mass Cymbols are okay but have to be attached to a drumset.

Yes, be jubilent and joyful and sing God’s praises, but save them for when we are not at Mass…
This is not a bad attitude on my behalf, it is respect…

What’s that you say? you still want songs of jubilation so we can be happy like the Protestants…no problem! That is why we have 168 hours in a week…1-2 hours at Holy Mass minumum and then at least 166 left to have any other type of music you want at an organized church function even, there is nothing wrong with starting a “glory and praise” prayer group for after church is over (provided you remain Catholic and don’t get caught up in the craze)…people in the US want to WASTE time watching football when they get home from Mass instead of being jubilant so I doubt that would happen…I hope this “football attitude” changes and we spend more time on God.
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Since when are joy, happiness, and a sense of gratitude disrespecful. I have let known my desire to have a funeral mass that joyfully praises God for the gift of life he gave me and even more for the gift of eternal life he has earned for me by his sacrifice. We need to celebrate this wonderful gift and not morn because Jesus died. He died willingly that we might live forever in His Kingdom as His brothers and sisters before the throne of the Father. I have belongd to praise and prayer groups that meet outside of mass. The praise and worship there is so powerful that many of the mornful masses are no longer of much meaning for some and to my sorrow they go elsewhere to join a church where they are able to express their joy in the Lord with exuberant(sic) as well as more solemn ways. They have both,but sadly not our Lord in the Euchrist.
 
WhiteDove,

Did you notice that the fellow that advised against the dangers of sola scriptura only quoted part of the document on sacred music? He left off the part about other suitable instruments. I am not going to say “if they were good enough for Paul and Silas” or in this case “good enough for David”, but it they are good enough for your Bishop and priest, then amen, halleluah!

If we are not to interpret the Bible outside the authoritative structure of the church, then how much slower should we be top interpret liturgical documents outside the structure for which they were intended.
 
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rwoehmke:
Since when are joy, happiness, and a sense of gratitude disrespecful. I have let known my desire to have a funeral mass that joyfully praises God for the gift of life he gave me and even more for the gift of eternal life he has earned for me by his sacrifice. We need to celebrate this wonderful gift and not morn because Jesus died. He died willingly that we might live forever in His Kingdom as His brothers and sisters before the throne of the Father. I have belongd to praise and prayer groups that meet outside of mass. The praise and worship there is so powerful that many of the mornful masses are no longer of much meaning for some and to my sorrow they go elsewhere to join a church where they are able to express their joy in the Lord with exuberant(sic) as well as more solemn ways. They have both,but sadly not our Lord in the Euchrist.
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The worship and praise are not disrespectful, but they have their time and place.
The point I am making is that we can rejoice after Mass, but at Mass we should be reverent and solemn. The reason I view it this way is because Jesus had to die for us because of our sin. We need to spend time reflecting on that…if anything, as a reminder that we are sinful. If you go to another thread I started called “Favorite song lyrics at Adoration” in the Spirituality section, you may see what I mean. I don’t think Mass should be a sad or depressing thing, but it should be a time of prayer. I ese to like the more upbeat music at Mass years ago (I’m only 25 now) but now I realize also that it can be distracting to people who are there to Worship in a more solemn way…the rest of us can be joyful in our hearts, but you never know what someone else is praying for at Mass, so we should be mindful not to let the music get overpowering. Does this clarify any???
The Mass is not really provided by us, it is provided by the Grace of God, so I am in favor of doing things His way and since Mass is a reenactment of Christ Sacrafice on Calvary, we should have Mass to consider that…If Jesus had wanted us to do otherwise, he would have had Mass be a reflection of His Resurection…
Anyway, I hope this clarifies, take care…
 
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flick427:
… but at Mass we should be reverent and solemn. The reason I view it this way is because Jesus had to die for us because of our sin
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In light of our extreme sinfulness, and what God did for us, do you not also see why some are extremely joyous and happy in their praise and worship?

The church in her wisdom has set aside liturgical seasons to keep us in balance in our emotions. We can worship with joy and happiness if Christmas and Easter (and Feast days) while reflecting on our sorrowful condition and need for a savior (Lent), and our hope in Jesus (Advent).

(Of course ordinary time is up for grabs and subject to the whims of the liturgist)😃
 
Yes, I can see their joy, but I personally prefer to just contemplate the joy and not express it outwardly (kinda like it is said of our Blessed Mother in Scripture)

I heard someone saying once about how upon looking at Jesus bleeding upon the cross even though they were not present personally on Calvary that day, they always ask Jesus: “Jesus, how could I do this to you?” (because of our sins we in reality are just as guilty as those who literally participated) I just am one who is hopeful that people will bring this attitude to Mass.
While there are “many parts and all one body” as said in scriputure, we have our own ways of worshipping and doing things which can be beautiful but at Mass, I like whe the “body” has all its parts working in unison.
Well, perhaps one day we can find out how Jesus really wanted us to conduct our worship;) …
 
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DaveBj:
From Nelson’s Illustrated Bible Dictionary:

For blueyedmule: They had organs in the first century???

DaveBj
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I believe the earliest use of the organ was in the 4th century.
 
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pnewton:
WhiteDove,

Did you notice that the fellow that advised against the dangers of sola scriptura only quoted part of the document on sacred music? He left off the part about other suitable instruments. I am not going to say “if they were good enough for Paul and Silas” or in this case “good enough for David”, but it they are good enough for your Bishop and priest, then amen, halleluah!

If we are not to interpret the Bible outside the authoritative structure of the church, then how much slower should we be top interpret liturgical documents outside the structure for which they were intended.
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“Other instruments” have been part of Christian worship virtually since the beginning. (The Russian Orthodox, however, use no instruments because the human voice is the instrument invented by God and cannot be surpassed for worship.) This thread has intrigued me because of the occasional expressions of enthusiasm for styles of music that I would consider painfully immature. As for “jazzing it up” – one is at a painful loss of comprehension as to what that might mean in the context of liturgy. The Hallelujah chorus is not “jazzy” but lacks nothing in vigor. When I think of jazz, I think of syncopation. When I think of syncopation, I think of non-European tradition. While the Mass is universal and cross-cultural, it IS deeply rooted in European culture (and so am I). Why is it that we are encouraged to respect everybody’s culture except our own? Besides, I can’t syncopate for the life of me.

In response to the person who misses “singing in four parts” and who reads music well, I have yet to see a pew hymnal in a Catholic church that includes any other line than the melody. Even if one can read music, there is no music to read. Altos, tenors and basses need not apply.

Rant, rant. This subject makes me need to go to confession.
 
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blueyedmule:
Vatican 2 gives us concrete directives in regards to liturgy which have been largely abandoned–in fact, were never implemented. Those were the items I listed–that we should all know our parts of the Mass in Latin, that the organ has pride of place as well as Chant as the music of choice for liturgy.

While tambarines and cymbals have their place in celebrations, they are not appropriate to Mass.
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Go to Assumption Grotto in Detroit! The congregation cheerfully recites or chants the responses, the Creed and the Lord’s prayer, while the dedicated amateur choir sings the Ordinary in Renaissance polyphony. Now THAT is the spirit of Vatican 2!

My Coptic friends worship to the sound of finger cymbals, little drums, and flutes. Can’t say it would make a good import into the Latin Rite but it works for Egyptians! As Plato says, when you change the music, you change the culture.
 
Greetings
How did I miss this thread!

I love these scriptures.

I have this beautiful tambourine . It has a lovely white dove painted on it. I can hardly wait to use it to help me Praise the Lord!
 
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