What about "White" lies?

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When I was a child my maternal grandfather had the last of several heart attacks that killed him. Me and sister stayed at our other grandparents house over night. The call came in the morning that Grandpa was “Ok.” In reality, he had died. As my parents and my grandmother approached the house of my other grandparents, I saw my grandmother sobbing and wailing. I thought that maybe the condition had taken a turn for the worse since the phone call. Then I was told that he had died and that the lie I was told had a special name and that is “White” lie; and that parents have the right to “White” lie to their children or in other situations when it is intended to spare feelings or protect (my sister and I shouldn’t have to hear such news without our parents actually present). Issues of forgiveness aside, how was my father justified in lying?
 
He meant no harm; and now that I think of it, grandfather did go to heaven–so in a sense he was “ok”. Still, my dad explained about white lying–so that throws the heaven theory out the door. I’m really puzzled by all this? I also must confess, that I knew it was a falsehood when I heard it. I was old enough to know that grandpa’s next heart attack would likely be his last and I saw him in the stretcher going to the ambulance. He was moaning and it didn;t even remotely look good.
 
He meant no harm; and now that I think of it, grandfather did go to heaven–so in a sense he was “ok”. Still, my dad explained about white lying–so that throws the heaven theory out the door. I’m really puzzled by all this? I also must confess, that I knew it was a falsehood when I heard it. I was old enough to know that grandpa’s next heart attack would likely be his last and I saw him in the stretcher going to the ambulance. He was moaning and it didn;t even remotely look good.
yes people sometimes tell these “white lies”…to protect others…kids etc…which does not make them right…

though often too they can use “careful” language to not lie…(or they make use of a legit kind of mental reservation)…which can be not lying…

(see link from Catechism)
 
I really like your answer. I never knew the ‘entitled to’ part of your answer at all. I’ve given away some very intimate secrets in life, especially when I was younger, believing that I had to set a good example for non christian friends when they asked questions of me that I should have more carefully eschewed. I owe you a debt of gratitude for your reply, but likewise am uncertain of where to read more about this.:o
 
Not sure if this applies to your situation or not…but as I understand church teaching telling the truth vs.sinful lies only pertains to a situation where the individual asking the question is entitled to the information.

If a casual friend were to curiously ask a couple how often they have intimate relations, since this friend is not entitled to this information the couple being asked is not obligated to divulge the truth. Or a severe case during WWII when people where hiding Jews in their homes…if the Nazis came and asked them if they knew where any Jews were and they said “no” this would not be lying (as in a** sinful** lie) as the Nazis were not entitled to know where they were since they were only seeking them to cause them unjust harm.

Another more common situation might be when a child asks their mom and dad if they every used drugs. Parents are not obligated to divulge this information. Some day, they may decide to share their life experiences if they think it might help…but if they are worried it might appear to tell their children “drugs are okay” then it is best for the parent not to tell their children. This is not a sinful lie as children are NOT entitled to this information so it is up to the parent on whether or not they want to be truthful.

It doesn’t seem your family was planning on hiding your grandfathers death from you forever, but merely waiting until your parents got there to comfort you. Perhaps also your grandmother didn’t think she could handle it trying to comfort you at the time and so wanted to postpone it. I think I would want to be there for my young children to hear such sad news so maybe that’s why your family made the same decision?

It is a bit of a grey area since as a child you are certaintly entitled to the news of your grandfathers death. However were you entitled to it at that very moment of the phone call? Or was it within the rights of the adults involved to decide it appropriate that you wait a little while to find out while the adults could talk and inform your parents. My guess from the information you provided is that their actions were probably not sinful and so they don’t owe an apology really.
I don’t think whether or not one is entitled to information is relevant here, especially because the choices here are not merely “lie” or “tell the truth.” One can, for instance, refuse to speak, defer answering until a later time, etc. The old murderer-at-the-door scenario was always a red herring for that reason – it would be perfectly morally licit for you to, for instance, shoot the murderer in the head rather than reveal that you are in fact hiding his intended victim.

I can’t say I’ve ever done drugs, but I have done some things I’m not proud of (bullying, premarital sex, etc.). If asked, I would either, depending on my child’s age, admit that I’d done such things and that they were wrong of me or simply tell them we’d talk about it when they’re older.

Not sure what Catechism teaches re: lying, but Edward Feser has suggested that under most circumstances (e.g., telling kids Santa Clause exists or lying to the murderer at the door to protect his intended victim) lying is at worst a venial sin. Obviously there are other circumstances (e.g., perjury, lying to cover up a crime or sin such as cheating on a spouse, etc.) where it crosses the line into mortal sin but these are less frequent in terms of our day-to-day life.

As for children… well, they have to learn about death some time. :bighanky:
 
Okay, I don’t mean to throw cold water on anyone,
but what about telling your kids
that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny really exist???
(( Not to mention the monsters hiding under their beds
who will “get them” if they misbehave and don’t go to sleep…))
 
What about lying in order to protect yourself from creepy people? I have experienced this and I either didn’t answer or lied in order to protect myself. It was stated in the CCC that is is okay not to give an answer if the person asking does not have the right to the answer.
 
The Church has its position on lying which I sometimes do not fully understand or have trouble agreeing with. Here are some examples. Your six year old child drew a picture of you. It doesn’t look good at all. “How do you like my picture of you Mommy/Daddy?” Do you tell the truth and say “That doesn’t look good at all” and hurt the child or do you spare their feelings and say “It looks very nice”. A friend has prepared a dinner and it tastes simply awful. When they ask “How’s the food” Do you say " This food tastes simply awful" making your host feel so humiliated they wish they could crawl under the floor boards, or do you choke it down trying not to make an obvious face of discomfort and say “Oh it’s fine it’s fine”. Or maybe “I think it might need a little salt” Or do you say “I guess I’m not as hungry as I thought I was” but deep down you’re really starving. Samson lied several times on how to make him lose his strength and the one time he tells the truth WHAM! he gets it, eyes burnt out and put on shameful public display. When Jesus was asked by what authorities do you do these things. He didn’t answer with an answer He answered with a question. He didn’t lie, but he did withhold a truth. Does this make Jesus Himself a liar?
 
The Church has its position on lying which I sometimes do not fully understand or have trouble agreeing with. Here are some examples. Your six year old child drew a picture of you. It doesn’t look good at all. “How do you like my picture of you Mommy/Daddy?” Do you tell the truth and say “That doesn’t look good at all” and hurt the child or do you spare their feelings and say “It looks very nice”. A friend has prepared a dinner and it tastes simply awful. When they ask “How’s the food” Do you say " This food tastes simply awful" making your host feel so humiliated they wish they could crawl under the floor boards, or do you choke it down trying not to make an obvious face of discomfort and say “Oh it’s fine it’s fine”. Or maybe “I think it might need a little salt” Or do you say “I guess I’m not as hungry as I thought I was” but deep down you’re really starving. Samson lied several times on how to make him lose his strength and the one time he tells the truth WHAM! he gets it, eyes burnt out and put on shameful public display. When Jesus was asked by what authorities do you do these things. He didn’t answer with an answer He answered with a question. He didn’t lie, but he did withhold a truth. Does this make Jesus Himself a liar?
Over the course of time the answer was given by Jesus; and he was already tempted in the desert by that time, so I suppose he knew what evil could attempt better than we do. Maybe given the developmental issues of a child, time is relevant? Also, with regard to the picture and food, the question hinges on what the definition of “good” is. Jesus was clear on that also—God alone is good. (Imagine that—“was the food good?”–“No. God alone is good!”

Still, I see your point. I also think this is how many Catholics and other Christians get manipulated into saying things and then having to honor those things they didn’t want to say.
 
The problem with the explanation offered above is that Santa Clause is not, to my mind, merely an entertaining story. Books are entertaining stories, even those that pretend to be real histories (e.g., certain C. S. Lewis books), because we all know they’re not real histories but merely entertaining stories.

Children, on the other hand, are not told Santa Clause is just an entertaining story but is a real person who acts in concrete ways by delivering gifts. He is proferred as an explanation for something that happened. Why not simply tell your kid you gave him the gifts because you love him?

Again, it’s a venial sin at worst, but I don’t see a reason why you should tell your kids about Santa at all. If you do, you should do so in a manner that makes clear that he’s just a fabricated story and not a real person.
 
Not sure if this applies to your situation or not…but as I understand church teaching telling the truth vs.sinful lies only pertains to a situation where the individual asking the question is entitled to the information.

If a casual friend were to curiously ask a couple how often they have intimate relations, since this friend is not entitled to this information the couple being asked is not obligated to divulge the truth. Or a severe case during WWII when people where hiding Jews in their homes…if the Nazis came and asked them if they knew where any Jews were and they said “no” this would not be lying (as in a** sinful** lie) as the Nazis were not entitled to know where they were since they were only seeking them to cause them unjust harm.

Another more common situation might be when a child asks their mom and dad if they every used drugs. Parents are not obligated to divulge this information. Some day, they may decide to share their life experiences if they think it might help…but if they are worried it might appear to tell their children “drugs are okay” then it is best for the parent not to tell their children. This is not a sinful lie as children are NOT entitled to this information so it is up to the parent on whether or not they want to be truthful.

It doesn’t seem your family was planning on hiding your grandfathers death from you forever, but merely waiting until your parents got there to comfort you. Perhaps also your grandmother didn’t think she could handle it trying to comfort you at the time and so wanted to postpone it. I think I would want to be there for my young children to hear such sad news so maybe that’s why your family made the same decision?

It is a bit of a grey area since as a child you are certainly entitled to the news of your grandfathers death. However were you entitled to it at that very moment of the phone call? Or was it within the rights of the adults involved to decide it appropriate that you wait a little while to find out while the adults could talk and inform your parents. My guess from the information you provided is that their actions were probably not sinful and so they don’t owe an apology really.
Totally correct.
 
Over the course of time the answer was given by Jesus; and he was already tempted in the desert by that time, so I suppose he knew what evil could attempt better than we do. Maybe given the developmental issues of a child, time is relevant? Also, with regard to the picture and food, the question hinges on what the definition of “good” is. Jesus was clear on that also—God alone is good. (Imagine that—“was the food good?”–“No. God alone is good!”

Still, I see your point. I also think this is how many Catholics and other Christians get manipulated into saying things and then having to honor those things they didn’t want to say.
Michael, Thanks for at least reading my post, but your reply still doesn’t answer my questions. The only thing I can take away from this is according to the Church’s teaching (or at least people’s interpretatations) is that I’m obligated to be honest, even to the point of being rude and hurtful by telling a child that their artwork stinks, by telling someone the food they prepared for me tastes horrible, by traversing into that no win situation with women, and just say “YES! YES! That does make you look fat!” OR “Noooo…, that doesn’t make you LOOK fat. You ARE fat”.
 
Michael, Thanks for at least reading my post, but your reply still doesn’t answer my questions.
You are welcome. I started this thread to learn about this (I’ll give you more of the background in a minute…)
A friend has prepared a dinner and it tastes simply awful. When they ask “How’s the food” Do you say " This food tastes simply awful" making your host feel so humiliated they wish they could crawl under the floor boards, or do you choke it down trying not to make an obvious face of discomfort and say “Oh it’s fine it’s fine”. Or maybe “I think it might need a little salt” Or do you say “I guess I’m not as hungry as I thought I was” but deep down you’re really starving.
Why should anyone have the authority or right to ask me questions in a definitive cross examination manner so as to limit my capacity for qualification? Certainly not a child.

I think the difficulty might be in limiting the answer to Yes, No. Especially in the case of children, where you can use your parental authority to turn the question back on them: “Why do you ask daddy about your picture today?” or “Why did you paint that?” “How did you paint that?” This might not work with an adult who is older and keener, but still I think there must be ways to get the meaning across effectively : “I’m sure it’s good enough in itself, just didn’t agree with my stomach today.” Over time you might let your host know that you really are a picky eater, but that you can’t pass judgment on his her food because that is not your judgment to make (unless you happen to be in a position to give constructive criticism as chef etc).

I don’t mean to suggest that you or anyone reading this post can’t think of such ideas for yourself, but rather that we needn’t knock the person off their horse as Paul was by the light when nearing Damascus. That’s what I meant by “over time,” we can reveal the truth slowly. Jesus in his ministry John 2:24 is said not to have yet “trusted himself to them…” He also spoke in parables and with significant speech. He was not a liar, obviously, nor did he obfuscate the truth in any way…I believe he simply knew that ultimately the holy spirit would lead them to “remember all that [he] told them.” This obviously included interpreting his words in light of the truth he was to reveal…“destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up,” they could not have realized his meaning; so similarly, we need to speak always to the ultimate truth and possibly think of a good reason why our palette requires so much ketchup and pepper all the time we will consider it not a lie but a form of penance to say, “yes, dear, it was good…please don’t make it any more or I’ll become a glutton!” Please don’t take that as sarcasm.

The example I gave in the opening to this thread was that of death. I also said that I later realized Heaven more maturely than as a child. As such I am capable of knowing that ideas and words are more permanent in this world than are bodies, so I know very well that my grandfather is alive not only with a body in heaven, but with words and ideas that live in me here on earth. Thus time revealed my dad didn’t lie.

But, he was in the career of advertising. Many people pity me because of that—there is so much lying in that career. Yet the proponents point out all the economic benefit of having these half baked jingles and outrageous promises on the airwaves, etc. In a strange way, my dad, who is loathe to give a straight answer to any question, taught me semiotics (through signs themselves, of course). He even used semiotics to help me quit smoking, which I have stayed quit for over 15 years now.

Therefore, even though the injunction is to let your yes mean yes and your no mean no; I personally see no reason to judge your own self when you have a clear no or yes in mind. There will always be disagreement on what is polite. Personal politics is an art as well as a science.

If one takes too strict a stance on the yes/no issue, then all drama and literature is lie? That seems just plain stentorian.
 
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