D
distracted
Guest
All i hear is conflicting information… even from the popes…
so if you could shed some light on this…
so if you could shed some light on this…
what am i supposed to tell people if they ask about No salvation outside the Church?
- Status
T
tbtcom1213
Guest
EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALLUS
-Saint Cyprian of Carthage 3rd Century bishop
“all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body.” - CCC
Jesus Christ established one Church.
“Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it” (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium)
-Saint Cyprian of Carthage 3rd Century bishop
“all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body.” - CCC
Jesus Christ established one Church.
“Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it” (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium)
R
RosaryCrusader
Guest
If they ask - you tell them the truth: There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.
Why?
Because there is no salvation outside of Christ (protestants will agree with you on this) - the Church is Christ’s Body meaning there is no salvation outside of Christ’s Body - the Church. But also, Christ said he who hears YOU hears ME - and he who rejects YOU rejects ME and he who rejects ME rejects Him who sent ME. Nobody can say they have faith yet reject the very things that Christ taught. This is why the Church infallibly taught that heretics, schismatics and the likes cannot be saved. There is no reason to go into theological assumptions and judgements as to invincible ignorance or baptism of desire- this will only do more harm than good. Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus is part of the deposit of faith - something Christ revealed and the Truth shall set you free.
Why?
Because there is no salvation outside of Christ (protestants will agree with you on this) - the Church is Christ’s Body meaning there is no salvation outside of Christ’s Body - the Church. But also, Christ said he who hears YOU hears ME - and he who rejects YOU rejects ME and he who rejects ME rejects Him who sent ME. Nobody can say they have faith yet reject the very things that Christ taught. This is why the Church infallibly taught that heretics, schismatics and the likes cannot be saved. There is no reason to go into theological assumptions and judgements as to invincible ignorance or baptism of desire- this will only do more harm than good. Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus is part of the deposit of faith - something Christ revealed and the Truth shall set you free.
C
Corki
Guest
I’ll tell you how I explain salvation to my high school CCE students.
As Catholics, we are part of a one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. Part of what it means to be apostolic is that whatever we need for our salvation has been handed down to us through the Apostles as Scripture AND Tradition. The teaching handed down from the Apostles is that to attain salvation one needs to be in communion with the Church and her Sacraments, first through Baptism and to die in a state of Grace. We as Catholic Christians have that teaching given to us as the one, ordinary, way to salvation.
God, fortunately, is not bound to only the ordinary way. He can grant salvation to others who may not have access to the Church and her Sacraments. The fact that God can do that does not in any way diminish the obligation of Catholic Christians to follow the ordinary way as handed down to us through the Apostles.
Perhaps you will find something in this that will be helpful.
As Catholics, we are part of a one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. Part of what it means to be apostolic is that whatever we need for our salvation has been handed down to us through the Apostles as Scripture AND Tradition. The teaching handed down from the Apostles is that to attain salvation one needs to be in communion with the Church and her Sacraments, first through Baptism and to die in a state of Grace. We as Catholic Christians have that teaching given to us as the one, ordinary, way to salvation.
God, fortunately, is not bound to only the ordinary way. He can grant salvation to others who may not have access to the Church and her Sacraments. The fact that God can do that does not in any way diminish the obligation of Catholic Christians to follow the ordinary way as handed down to us through the Apostles.
Perhaps you will find something in this that will be helpful.
M
Melchior_1
Guest
When in doubt;
1a) The Catechism of the Catholic Church.
1b) The Early Church Fathers.
What’s quoted here pretty much covers things nicely.
S
sawman
Guest
distracted,
Unless you want have a prolonged discussion on the meaning of " Church", you should probobly not get into much of a response. To adequately understand tthis truth, a proper understanding of Church is essential. In my experience, most folks don’t want a thorough discussion on too many topics. God bless your efforts.
Peace
Tom
Unless you want have a prolonged discussion on the meaning of " Church", you should probobly not get into much of a response. To adequately understand tthis truth, a proper understanding of Church is essential. In my experience, most folks don’t want a thorough discussion on too many topics. God bless your efforts.
Peace
Tom
T
Trishie
Guest
**Going back to basics. God who created the universe and
God who became Incarnate as Redeemer.
God who gave the gift of Church.
The God who is merciful.
The power, the greatness, the truth, the holiness, the life
of the Church,
comes from HIM.
We should carefully read the words of the Redeemer **
who is also Judge of souls,
in Matthew 25, verses 31-46.
**What does God Incarnate use as criteria for judgement.?
Behold, it is acts of practical kindness
which He takes as practical kindness (love) of Himself,
and is in His, THE expert testimony,
what determines who will be saved.
God incarnate, Redeemer and Judge, God of merciful Love, the highest authority, in the universe, in the Church, and regarding each soul**!
:harp::harp::harp::harp::harp::harp:
God who became Incarnate as Redeemer.
God who gave the gift of Church.
The God who is merciful.
The power, the greatness, the truth, the holiness, the life
of the Church,
comes from HIM.
We should carefully read the words of the Redeemer **
who is also Judge of souls,
in Matthew 25, verses 31-46.
**What does God Incarnate use as criteria for judgement.?
Behold, it is acts of practical kindness
which He takes as practical kindness (love) of Himself,
and is in His, THE expert testimony,
what determines who will be saved.
God incarnate, Redeemer and Judge, God of merciful Love, the highest authority, in the universe, in the Church, and regarding each soul**!
:harp::harp::harp::harp::harp::harp:
L
Lancer
Guest
The Popes and the Catechism are very clear…always have been and always will be on the DOCTRINE: "… outside the Church, there is no salvation…"period!
I find that the discomfort about this comes to me from withing myself…but…Our Lord Jesus Christ and His Church are very comfortable with what this DOCTRINE:…“Outside the Church there is no salvation”…really says and really means.
Here are the CCC paragraphs that helped me…for your consideration.
Pax Christi
"**
I find that the discomfort about this comes to me from withing myself…but…Our Lord Jesus Christ and His Church are very comfortable with what this DOCTRINE:…“Outside the Church there is no salvation”…really says and really means.
Here are the CCC paragraphs that helped me…for your consideration.
Pax Christi
**845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334 [334 St. Augustine, Serm. 96,7,9L 38,588; St. Ambrose, De virg. 18 118
"**
Re-formulated positively, ** it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:****“Outside the Church there is no salvation” **
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? 335 [335 Cf. Cyprian, *Ep. 73.21
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336 [336 *LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5.]
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
T
Trishie
Guest
I am sometimes sad that there is sometimes less emphasis placed on Jesus’ words than should be placed on the words of the saviour of the human race who is God’s Son, who is God as well as human. Jesus is the source of salvation and the foundation of the Church. Can we call ourself Christians if we don’t accept the words of Jesus the Christ?
Matthew 25 verses 31-46…Jesus’ words on who will be saved:
"The Last Judgement"
“When the Son of Man comes in all His glory, escorted by all the angels, then he will take his seat on his throne of glory. All the nations will be assembled before him and he will separate men from one another as the shepherd separates sheep from goats.
He will place the sheep on his right hand and the goats on his left. then the King shall say to those on his right hand,” Come you whom my Father has blessed, take for your heritage the kingdom prepared for you since the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food; I was a stranger and you made me welcome. I was thirsty and you gave me drink; naked and you clothed me; sick and you visited me, in prison and you came to see me.
Then the virtuous will say to him in reply, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you; or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you hungry and feed you; or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and make you welcome; naked and clothe you; sick or in prison and go to see you?
And the King will answer, " I tell you solemnly, in so far as you did this to one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did it to me."
Next he will say to those on his left “Go away from me with your curse upon you, to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels, for when I was hungry you never gave me food; I was thirsty and you never gave me anything to drink; I was a stranger and you never made me welcome, naked and you never clothed me, sick and in prison and you never visited me.”
Then it will be their turn to ask, “Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty; a stranger or naked, sick or in prison, and not come to your help?”
Then he will answer, “I tell you solemnly, in so far as you neglected to do this to one of the least of these, you neglected to do it to me.” And they will go away to eternal punishment, and the virtuous to eternal life.
And since Jesus is the very Person who will judge all of us, I think we have to accept HIS criterion for who may be saved! His criterion is salvation depends upon our charity towards other people, which He regards as charity directly given to Him
Matthew 25 verses 31-46…Jesus’ words on who will be saved:
"The Last Judgement"
“When the Son of Man comes in all His glory, escorted by all the angels, then he will take his seat on his throne of glory. All the nations will be assembled before him and he will separate men from one another as the shepherd separates sheep from goats.
He will place the sheep on his right hand and the goats on his left. then the King shall say to those on his right hand,” Come you whom my Father has blessed, take for your heritage the kingdom prepared for you since the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food; I was a stranger and you made me welcome. I was thirsty and you gave me drink; naked and you clothed me; sick and you visited me, in prison and you came to see me.
Then the virtuous will say to him in reply, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you; or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you hungry and feed you; or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and make you welcome; naked and clothe you; sick or in prison and go to see you?
And the King will answer, " I tell you solemnly, in so far as you did this to one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did it to me."
Next he will say to those on his left “Go away from me with your curse upon you, to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels, for when I was hungry you never gave me food; I was thirsty and you never gave me anything to drink; I was a stranger and you never made me welcome, naked and you never clothed me, sick and in prison and you never visited me.”
Then it will be their turn to ask, “Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty; a stranger or naked, sick or in prison, and not come to your help?”
Then he will answer, “I tell you solemnly, in so far as you neglected to do this to one of the least of these, you neglected to do it to me.” And they will go away to eternal punishment, and the virtuous to eternal life.
And since Jesus is the very Person who will judge all of us, I think we have to accept HIS criterion for who may be saved! His criterion is salvation depends upon our charity towards other people, which He regards as charity directly given to Him
B
buffalo
Guest
I like this - it is sure to make them think.
If you find yourself in heaven you will be Catholic and it will have come through the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic church Christ founded for that very reason.
If you find yourself in heaven you will be Catholic and it will have come through the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic church Christ founded for that very reason.
D
diggerdomer
Guest
Tell them they don’t understand Catholic teaching. See the Catechism 846-848.
M
manualman
Guest
The catechism references are the perfect answer. But sometimes you need an introduction! Jokes work well for this.
A Baptist preacher dies and stands before God in judgement. God looks down at the preacher and says, “My son, I have some good and some hard news for you, which do you want first?” The Baptist gulps and says “Well I suppose I’ll take the bad news first.” God responds “Every single person in heaven is a catholic.” Gasping and turning white as a sheet, the preacher yelps “Then what is the GOOD news?!” God: “Everybody in hell is catholic too. You’re going to heaven. But first we need to get a few last things straight.”
A Baptist preacher dies and stands before God in judgement. God looks down at the preacher and says, “My son, I have some good and some hard news for you, which do you want first?” The Baptist gulps and says “Well I suppose I’ll take the bad news first.” God responds “Every single person in heaven is a catholic.” Gasping and turning white as a sheet, the preacher yelps “Then what is the GOOD news?!” God: “Everybody in hell is catholic too. You’re going to heaven. But first we need to get a few last things straight.”
A
AnneElliot
Guest
I don’t get the last part of the joke, manualman
distracted,
The Popes do not teach conflicting things on EENS. You have to read carefully. Dogma does not change.
distracted,
The Popes do not teach conflicting things on EENS. You have to read carefully. Dogma does not change.
M
manualman
Guest
Or maybe you DO get it and I’m not as funny as I like to think… 
Part of judgement is the stripping away of all ignorance, self-imposed or otherwise. We’ll face the naked truth about ourselves and the world and have every rationalization and self-delusion stripped away. There won’t be any “Baptists” in heaven because they will cease to be Baptists before they get there. There won’t be any atheists in hell for the same reason. (And that’s not to say that there won’t be some atheists that end up in heaven after having previously invincible ignorance stripped away) Judgement means no hiding from the Truth.
The Truth is what God says it is. If He says that He established the Church and has chosen to make it the avenue of all Grace distributed to earth, then that’s the way it is. But that doesn’t mean that everybody who receives God’s Grace comprehends BEFORE judgement that the Church is His chosen vehicle for it.
Part of judgement is the stripping away of all ignorance, self-imposed or otherwise. We’ll face the naked truth about ourselves and the world and have every rationalization and self-delusion stripped away. There won’t be any “Baptists” in heaven because they will cease to be Baptists before they get there. There won’t be any atheists in hell for the same reason. (And that’s not to say that there won’t be some atheists that end up in heaven after having previously invincible ignorance stripped away) Judgement means no hiding from the Truth.
The Truth is what God says it is. If He says that He established the Church and has chosen to make it the avenue of all Grace distributed to earth, then that’s the way it is. But that doesn’t mean that everybody who receives God’s Grace comprehends BEFORE judgement that the Church is His chosen vehicle for it.
A
AnneElliot
Guest
How can everyone in Hell be “catholic”? Wouldn’t part of the reason for their being there [in Hell] is that they obstinately refuse to believe and/or accept Catholicism? Knowledge does not make a person a Catholic.
D
distracted
Guest
wow… something good cme from Vatican II…?
true i don’t know a whole lot about Vat II but … well, anyhow…
does this mean that those who don’t know for sure that the Catholic Church is the real one… have doubts till death… can go to Heaven? cuz i am wondering about that… i suppose they couldgo to Purgatory… God u/stands ignorance and has mercy on pepole because of it… i would assume… but then maybe we shouldn’t assume too much about God… never a good idea… hmmm…
M
manualman
Guest
But if judgement is the stripping away of all deceit, then all those in hell KNOW that God offered them only love and salvation and they refused it. Yes, certain knowledge is not the same and belief, much less baptism. But ANY joke falls flat if you must pull out THAT sharp a scalpal to examine it…
D
distracted
Guest
anyone who accepts Christ with all his heart is going to be interested in His Church… They may not know the Catholic Church IS That Church…most probably won’t… at first… but they will investigate and find out… and eventually become Catholic…
if they study and do not become Catholic, i belive it is because they don’t want to lose their protestant life…or some aspect thereof… thye don’t like the sacrifice involved…
that’s my opinion…
i didn’t ask the Q because i don’t know the answer… although i am always learning … appreicate new (name removed by moderator)ut… but because there are so many conflicting answers, even here @ CAF… .even among orthodox Catholics…
actually, i am still a little confused about… well, how exactly pepole are saved outside actual membership in the RCC… I do believe God is big enough to save them… without the Sacraments and all… but i believe only those who at least ON their way… to the Chruch are saved… Do you agree??
S
sawman
Guest
distracted,
I investigated this very topic a number of years ago for some of the same reasons you have put forward here. What I am saying is off the top of my head and I can’t remember sourses very well either. I know that I was satisfied that the Holy Church teaches the truth and is not saying different things about this topic.
One problem people run into is what do we mean by “the Church”? One of the posters had a relevant quote from Lumen Gentium. The “Church” is not just the Roman Catholic Church. It includes all christians. There are even ways for non-christians to go to heaven. The faith is meant to lived out in a community of believers, and it is impossible to be a christian without the Church. For one thing we need the sacraments, and the ministry of the priests, we need teachers, and all that. Oh, and most importantly, we need the Head.
Then you have what Jesus said, we need to do the will of the Father. Love God, Love your nieghbor, Do good, avoid evil. We need to believe in Christ as lord. All these things are marks of the Church. So a person who holds these things to be true but is not yet baptised physically, can still go to heaven by virtue of desire.
There are means available known only to God for a soul to go to heaven we have figured out a number of them but we have not exauhsted the list. Only God will judge in the end, and only God knows the heart. Technically, even a pagan can attain heaven, under the right circumstances. There is a good discussion of this in one of Pope John Paul II"s letters. I can’t rember the name of it. It came out about 8-10 yrs ago and was about salvation is only thru Jesus Christ.
I am sorry if I am being more confusing than a help, the catechism has very good information on the whole topic too. The paragraphs on Baptism, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church all go into the details of what and who is the Church, why and how she is needed for salvation etc.
Peace,
Tom
I investigated this very topic a number of years ago for some of the same reasons you have put forward here. What I am saying is off the top of my head and I can’t remember sourses very well either. I know that I was satisfied that the Holy Church teaches the truth and is not saying different things about this topic.
One problem people run into is what do we mean by “the Church”? One of the posters had a relevant quote from Lumen Gentium. The “Church” is not just the Roman Catholic Church. It includes all christians. There are even ways for non-christians to go to heaven. The faith is meant to lived out in a community of believers, and it is impossible to be a christian without the Church. For one thing we need the sacraments, and the ministry of the priests, we need teachers, and all that. Oh, and most importantly, we need the Head.
Then you have what Jesus said, we need to do the will of the Father. Love God, Love your nieghbor, Do good, avoid evil. We need to believe in Christ as lord. All these things are marks of the Church. So a person who holds these things to be true but is not yet baptised physically, can still go to heaven by virtue of desire.
There are means available known only to God for a soul to go to heaven we have figured out a number of them but we have not exauhsted the list. Only God will judge in the end, and only God knows the heart. Technically, even a pagan can attain heaven, under the right circumstances. There is a good discussion of this in one of Pope John Paul II"s letters. I can’t rember the name of it. It came out about 8-10 yrs ago and was about salvation is only thru Jesus Christ.
I am sorry if I am being more confusing than a help, the catechism has very good information on the whole topic too. The paragraphs on Baptism, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church all go into the details of what and who is the Church, why and how she is needed for salvation etc.
Peace,
Tom
R
RosaryCrusader
Guest
I’m sorry but you just oversimplified this to the point of being contrary to Church teaching. The Chuch IS just the Roman Catholic Church - there are no other “Churches” properly so called especially in reference to protestant sects - (vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html)
Not without Christ or the Church.
If there are means “known only to God” then how did you figure them out? All we know is what Christ left us and He didn’t leave us any other way than Himself through the Church. There is no other way. If you’re referencing so called baptism of desire and of blood even these are instruments of grace through the Church. These are not elements outside of the Church.
- Status