what am i supposed to tell people if they ask about No salvation outside the Church?

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manualman said:
But if judgement is the stripping away of all deceit, then all those in hell KNOW that God offered them only love and salvation and they refused it. Yes, certain knowledge is not the same and belief, much less baptism. But ANY joke falls flat if you must pull out THAT sharp a scalpal to examine it…
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:confused::confused:
 
sawman said:
distracted,
I investigated this very topic a number of years ago for some of the same reasons you have put forward here. What I am saying is off the top of my head and I can’t remember sourses very well either. I know that I was satisfied that the Holy Church teaches the truth and is not saying different things about this topic.
One problem people run into is what do we mean by “the Church”? One of the posters had a relevant quote from Lumen Gentium. The “Church” is not just the Roman Catholic Church. It includes all christians. There are even ways for non-christians to go to heaven. The faith is meant to lived out in a community of believers, and it is impossible to be a christian without the Church. For one thing we need the sacraments, and the ministry of the priests, we need teachers, and all that. Oh, and most importantly, we need the Head.
Then you have what Jesus said, we need to do the will of the Father. Love God, Love your nieghbor, Do good, avoid evil. We need to believe in Christ as lord. All these things are marks of the Church. So a person who holds these things to be true but is not yet baptised physically, can still go to heaven by virtue of desire.

There are means available known only to God for a soul to go to heaven we have figured out a number of them but we have not exauhsted the list. Only God will judge in the end, and only God knows the heart. Technically, even a pagan can attain heaven, under the right circumstances. There is a good discussion of this in one of Pope John Paul II"s letters. I can’t rember the name of it. It came out about 8-10 yrs ago and was about salvation is only thru Jesus Christ.
I am sorry if I am being more confusing than a help, the catechism has very good information on the whole topic too. The paragraphs on Baptism, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church all go into the details of what and who is the Church, why and how she is needed for salvation etc.

Peace,
Tom
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i used to believe a lot of what you say and still kinda do… but sometimes i really wonder… i am in the right Church… and do everything i can to avoid sin… haven’t committed a mortal sin in yrs… but even with all that… lots of prayer, etc… when i am in the Real Presence of Christ, which is absolute holiness… i sometimes feel that i have a long ways to go in being pure enough for Heaven… where there is absolutely NO sin or stain of sin or desire for sin… or even thinking of sin…

i dont feel condemned when i am There… in fact tht’s about the only place where i have never felt condemned… but i have to say… a few yrs ago… when i wasn’t so… well… “absolved” or what have you… :shrug:i do recall one time being There and feeling that… well, i had this temporary feeling tht i wasn’t going to make it to Heaven…:eek: :(but the longer i sat There… well, Jesus straightened me out as only HE can do… He fixed me… so what i am saying is tht … people fool themselves whne thye think all they have to do, basically, is avoid murdering poeople and maybe adultery and they will get to Heaven… When that incident happend i was a very devout Christian doing the best i could do…

so anyhow… people lose sight of just how absolutely HOLY God really is… and how absolutely FAR from sin we must be to enter Heaven…
 
RosaryCrusader said:
I’m sorry but you just oversimplified this to the point of being contrary to Church teaching. The Chuch IS just the Roman Catholic Church - there are no other “Churches” properly so called especially in reference to protestant sects - (vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html)

Not without Christ or the Church.

If there are means “known only to God” then how did you figure them out? All we know is what Christ left us and He didn’t leave us any other way than Himself through the Church. There is no other way. If you’re referencing so called baptism of desire and of blood even these are instruments of grace through the Church. These are not elements outside of the Church.
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this is FAR closer to what i believe … than the poster you respond to… .in fact it is exactly what i believe… but then i read comments like what poster said… and i get a little confused… cuz… well it does seem that God would make a way for others not officially Ctaholic to get to Heaven… He is a very big and lovng God…

but … well… i think this is what the deal is… i think that everyone knows about the Catholic Church… I thnk the thought comes to virtually EVERYONE at one point in their lives… no at many points… “The Catholic Church is the right one…” because she stands against all the modern errors and worldliness… but anyhow… If they don’t follow through on that thought… go to RCIA… investigate… then i feel they are saying NO to Christ…

no, i dont feel they are… they ARE… objectively speaking… and it is Objective Truth that will get you in the End… to reject Jesus is to reject reality… its like saying “i can jump off this 5 story building and still live…”

🤷
 
I apologize if I have mis-stated what the Church teaches. I have re-read my post and I realize that I cannot correctly remember the passages from different documents. I disagree with some of what has been said here, but I do not have the inclination or the interest or the time to go and re-read all the documents I studied years ago. I knew I should not have gone any further than my original response.

Sorry for the confusion.
Peace,
Tom
 
distracted said:
this is FAR closer to what i believe … than the poster you respond to… .in fact it is exactly what i believe… but then i read comments like what poster said… and i get a little confused… cuz… well it does seem that God would make a way for others not officially Ctaholic to get to Heaven… He is a very big and lovng God…
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The Church teaches that God will not deny anyone the graces they need to be saved. The real question is whether or not (and/or) how people will respond… we cannot control the decisions and choices that others make with their lives, but we can (and should) pray for them.
 
distracted said:
All i hear is conflicting information… even from the popes…

so if you could shed some light on this…
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It all depends on who is asking. Are they anti-Catholic? Are they thinking of becoming Catholic? Are they traditional Catholics? Are they informed about who Fr. Feeney was? What do they know about the Council of Trent, Lumen Gentium, or the papal bulls that are often used to defend the rigorous interpretation of the formula? I don’t think there is even any embarrassment with confessing your inability to answer. I might try, but I wouldn’t expect everybody who is Catholic to be knowledgable about such a subject. I wouldn’t even expect every priest to be knowledgable about it.

I have never had anyone ask me anything like that. I suppose that says something about the impression I make on people in person. Heh. Depending on the inquirer I would probably try to talk a little about good Fr. Feeney. I say good because he was a wonderfully evangelistic priest and a credit to his faith who died reconciled to the Church. I would say, based on a conversation I once had with an apologist from Catholic Answers, that his position was heterodox, not heretical. I think the rigorous view of the matter is only wrong. It isn’t definitively wrong. The problem it seems to me is that some “Feeneyites” seem determined to posit that their position is definitively right. That, as I understand it, is the unacceptable part of the belief.

In short, the Council of Trent speaks favorably about baptism of desire, and I am happy to pray for the dead who never joined the Catholic Church.

Rory
 
Just tell them if they want to be saved they need to become Catholic, if you tell them that they might even convert and be saved which is what we want for them after all, they won’t convert if you tell them they are fine the way they are and might be saved no matter what they do or belief and they will probably go to hell, I don’t think any of us hate anyone enough to wish that on them.
 
MarkThompson said:
Careful, now! 🙂
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Yes, of course - Sorry, I assumed people knew what I meant - I’m talking about one Church (one Faith) - many rites. The Eastern Rites are obviously Catholic - not talking about the schismatic Orthodox.
 
manualman said:
But if judgement is the stripping away of all deceit, then all those in hell KNOW that God offered them only love and salvation and they refused it. Yes, certain knowledge is not the same and belief, much less baptism. But ANY joke falls flat if you must pull out THAT sharp a scalpal to examine it…
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I understood the joke and I thought it was funny. First time around, too. 😃

God bless! 🙂
 
distracted said:
anyone who accepts Christ with all his heart is going to be interested in His Church… They may not know the Catholic Church IS That Church…most probably won’t… at first… but they will investigate and find out… and eventually become Catholic…

if they study and do not become Catholic, i belive it is because they don’t want to lose their protestant life…or some aspect thereof… thye don’t like the sacrifice involved…

that’s my opinion…

i didn’t ask the Q because i don’t know the answer… although i am always learning … appreicate new (name removed by moderator)ut… but because there are so many conflicting answers, even here @ CAF… .even among orthodox Catholics…

actually, i am still a little confused about… well, how exactly pepole are saved outside actual membership in the RCC… I do believe God is big enough to save them… without the Sacraments and all… but i believe only those who at least ON their way… to the Chruch are saved… Do you agree??
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Anyone who is searching for Truth will eventually find the Church. But it takes time to discover Truth and many will die before they discover it here on earth. A loving God would not throw them to eternal fire. He loves them! If they have lived good lives, working in charity towards the least of God (for whatever you do to these, the least of mine, you do to Me), they will go to heaven and they will have found Truth.

It’s hard here on earth. Satan is around tricking people and a lot of people think their church is right when the church two blocks away is wrong. People are just people. We’re not too bright sometimes and sometimes life gets in the way. We have children to raise and jobs to work at and school to go to and sometimes we are very, very tired at the end of the day or sick and unable to do what we feel we need to do. God knows what is in our hearts.

God will separate the sheep and the goats. One does not have to be Catholic to be a sheep. And a Catholic can be a goat. One does not have to be a Catholic to be saved, but their saving is done through the Church as the Church is Christ.

Hope this helps! 🙂
 
LittleSoldier said:
Anyone who is searching for Truth will eventually find the Church. But it takes time to discover Truth and many will die before they discover it here on earth. A loving God would not throw them to eternal fire. He loves them! If they have lived good lives, working in charity towards the least of God (for whatever you do to these, the least of mine, you do to Me), they will go to heaven and they will have found Truth.
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God is in control of our lives. His Divine Providence guides all things (except sin)… God would bring such a person to the fullness of Truth before their death because He will not deny grace to anyone who asks for it.
 
AnneElliot said:
God is in control of our lives. His Divine Providence guides all things (except sin)… God would bring such a person to the fullness of Truth before their death because He will not deny grace to anyone who asks for it.
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God is not in control of our lives, although He knows what will happen to us. He gives us all free will, as a gift, and allows us to use that free will. Will a 12 year old child be brought to the fullness of Truth before she is suddenly killed in a car accident? Maybe, maybe not. She may not be blessed to be a Catholic as we are. She may not have had the chance to learn much about Jesus and the Church He founded.

God certainly has the power to show the fullness of Truth in His own Being at our death.

One does not have to be a member of the Catholic Church in order to go to heaven. But as the Church is Christ, one cannot be saved except through the Church.
 
distracted said:
All i hear is conflicting information… even from the popes…

so if you could shed some light on this…
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Depending on who you’re talking to…
Go to Romans 6 on salvation
** 3Or do you not know that all of us who have been (E)baptized into (F)Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?**

4Therefore we have been (G)buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was (H)raised from the dead through the (I)glory of the Father, so we too might walk in (J)newness of life.

5For (K)if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

6knowing this, that our (L)old self was (M)crucified with Him, in order that our (N)body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

7for (O)he who has died is freed from sin.

** 8Now (P)if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, **

And to Pope Benedict’s encyclical on Salvation
Spe Salvi
(Saved in Hope)

catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=26060

And I just found this explanation of “No salvation outside the church.”
catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp
 
The Catholic Church is very clear about this dogma:

Council of Florence, Session 11, Ex Cathedra (emphasis mine):

It [the Catholic Church] firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church.
 
DorianGregorian said:
The Catholic Church is very clear about this dogma:

Council of Florence, Session 11, Ex Cathedra (emphasis mine):

It [the Catholic Church] firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church.
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Why isn’t the “c” in “catholic church” upper case? “Catholic”, when spelled as “catholic” means “universal.” It’s kinda weird how you capitalized it when you put it in brackets, but not otherwise.

Is this a typo? I’m not trying to get on your case; I’m merely confused.

ECUMENICAL COUNCIL OF FLORENCE (1438-1445)

[CIRP Note: Pope Eugenius IV issued a papal bull regarding reconciliation with the Coptic Christians during the Ecumenical Council of Florence. Coptic Christians, in contrast with other Christians, practice male neonatal circumcision. Therefore it was necessary for the Roman Catholic Church to state its position on male circumcision. This is an extract from the Bull of Union with the Copts (1442) that describes the Roman Catholic Church’s position on circumcision for Christians.]

cirp.org/library/cultural/councilflorence/

This is called “The Bull of Union with the Copts.” What determines the ex cathedra infallibility of this council?

I looked up “papal bull” and found this:

A papal bull is a special kind of patent or charter issued by a pope. It is named after the seal (bulla) that is appended to the end to authenticate it.

…Papal bulls were originally issued by popes for various reasons of public communication, but after the fifteenth century C.E., they were only issued for the most formal or solemn of occasions. Modern scholars have retroactively used the term “bull” to describe any elaborate papal document issued in the form of a decree or privilege (solemn or simple), including some papal letters. Traditionally, papal bulls always bore a metal seal, but today bulls only do so on the most solemn of occasions.

newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Papal_bull
 
After 30+ years of seeking and soul searching, if I thought that the true Church was not the Catholic Church; and there were other “churches” that could lead me to Heaven…well…I would still be a Protestant enjoying the pitch-in dinners and clapping along with “When the Saints go Marching In” (not to mention attending service when I felt like it or had nothing better to do).This new Catholic believes the only salvation is in THE Church or an unknown Grace of God not revealed to us mortals.
 
I wish I had been following this thread from its inception. It has gotten late and I haven’t the time to read all the posts.

The sad thing is that earlier tonight my 84 year old mother (now in a nursing home) called me a bigot for defending the Church not serving her (an Anglican) communion.

She has a very strong faith in Jesus. She was raised a Mennonite and became an Anglican after marriage. She was in tears thinking that I believed that my late father and late brother were destined for hell and that she was too. (Her mind is still sound but her emotional state is touch and go, ever since loosing her first born child a short time ago.)

I told her that that is not the belief of the Catholic Church.

It’s been a tough night.
 
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