what am i supposed to tell people if they ask about No salvation outside the Church?

[distracted]

i think most pepole end up in Hell cuz they won’t do what that one psg says…

if your foot causes you to stumble, cut if off…

somehwere else it says to cut if off… and cast it from you…

i dont see many “foot- less” pepole walking around… Yes… I KNOW it doesn’t mean to cut off your foot literally… (altho if that’s what it takes to avoid sin… but normally it does not take such drastic action…such action is NEVER required if one just removes oneself from the ocassion of sin…)…

What i mean is that i see very few pepole going seriously out of their way to avoid sin… instead thye seem to rationalize it… live with it… live close to people who are in great sin…meaning they make friends with unrepentant people… who drag them down to their level… .etc… etc… ;i don’t see people giving up R rated TV shows… True, i don’t see too many people of any kind… but when i take walks sometimes… in the evening… i walk by houses and all i ever see is the glow from a TV set… shining thro the window… house after house after house…

anyhow…

if something causes you to sin, get it out of your life… just seems that nowadays people just want Jesus plus this and Jesus plus that… but you can’t have everything… Jesus said you will love one master & hate the other… can’t serve both…

.

 

[HelenRose]

heard this a 1000 times:

A loving God would not throw people into eternal fire. He loves them

no God wont… but unrepented sin WILL…

& most people don’t seem to be doing much repenting these days… in my opinion, based on experience…

Jesus and the saints say that not many make it to Heaven… words to taht effect…

They go to Hell cuz they do not love God and his law/truth… enough to apply it to their lives…

It is humans who put themselves far from God…

it is NOT God’s will that any should perish…

if they DO it is NOT God’s fault… not ONE little bit…

“god’s spirit will not always strive with man’s.” (somwhere in the bible)

We must pray for Mercy for ourselves and for others. To me this is an argument that goes around and around in circles that never end. We will not settle it and it seems to me that we could find a lot more peace in believing that God really does know what He is doing and we can trust Him to do what is right and what is just.

God is not a soft warm fuzzy. After all He did create the laws of nature that in turn created black holes and volcanos. It would not be wise to second guess Him.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Can you answer the following questions for me so I can better understand you:

Why be Catholic if it doesn’t matter (i.e., you said, “one does not have to be a member of the Catholic Church in order to receive salvation through her”)?

Do you think everyone will ultimately be saved?

Lastly, where does the Church teach this:

Doesn’t that very idea violate what you “agreed” to in your earlier post?

Fourth Lateran Council “There is indeed one universal church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved”
ewtn.com/library/councils/lateran4.htm

Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos #10 “For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one, compacted and fitly joined together, it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.”
vatican.va/holy_father/pi…animos_en.html

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis #22 “Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed… It follows that those who are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.”
vatican.va/holy_father/pi…hristi_en.html

I will be happy to answer your questions but I’ll have to wait until tomorrow for some of them because I am sick today. I think I may have made a wording mistake. I don’t believe that everybody will be saved. I don’t think every Catholic will be saved. But I do think that everyone can be saved. I believe that we choose to be with Christ. If we choose not to be with Him we end up in hell. God will send us where we want to go. He won’t force anyone to be with Him. Unfortunately a lot of people make the choice to be without Him.

Why be Catholic if it doesn’t matter? It does matter. We are very blessed. We have the fullness of faith. We have the sacraments. We have the Holy Eucharist. I think that people who are not practicing Catholics have a much harder time becoming saved. I wish that everyone in the world was a Catholic, practicing and believing in the One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

I’ll have to wait until tomorrow for the rest. I’m sorry. I’m on a new medication and it’s making me very groggy.

God bless!!

 

[LittleSoldier]

heard this a 1000 times:

A loving God would not throw people into eternal fire. He loves them

no God wont… but unrepented sin WILL…

& most people don’t seem to be doing much repenting these days… in my opinion, based on experience…

Jesus and the saints say that not many make it to Heaven… words to taht effect…

They go to Hell cuz they do not love God and his law/truth… enough to apply it to their lives…

It is humans who put themselves far from God…

it is NOT God’s will that any should perish…

if they DO it is NOT God’s fault… not ONE little bit…

“god’s spirit will not always strive with man’s.” (somwhere in the bible)

I believe you are correct. It’s not God’s will but He gives us free will - we make the choice to be with Him or to stay away from Him. If we choose to stay away from Him it’s our fault, not His. Not one little bit, like you said.

 

[RosaryCrusader]

I would be a little leery of using blogs as Church documentation. Anyone can write anything he/she wants to write on a blog. It seems strange that a blog would have Fr. Feeney as its subject.

I’m not referencing an individual’s blog entry - I’m referencing the documents contained on them signed by Church hierarchy and Roman offices saying that they’re free to hold Fr. Feeney’s views in full communion with the Church. The Vatican has said that those who hold the more strict interpretation are just as free as those who hold the more liberal view.

Like it or not that’s fact and if it’s heresy that makes a good number of Popes, Saints, doctors of the Church and revered theologians ‘heretics’ according to you.

Rome has ruled, the members of St. Benedict are in full communion - I understand you don’t like this - but sorry, you have to deal with it now and cease calumniating them. If you’re not going to follow the links and see the evidence you deceive only yourself and reveal your bad will.

 

[RosaryCrusader]

It’s not true that those who are not Catholic are damned to hell and why anyone would believe that a loving God would allow such a travesty is beyond me.

Do you believe there is a hell? If so, is God not worthy of love because He is also just?

God loves us. Do you realize how many people would be damned to hell each and every day simply because they are not Catholic? No wonder people get upset at the Church; no wonder Protestants don’t want to convert. I don’t blame them. If I thought the Feeney heresy were true Church teaching I wouldn’t want to have anything to do with the Catholic Church either.

Mathew 7:14 says few are saved. Is God unjust?

 

[RosaryCrusader]

LittleSoldier,

You are a conflicted individual:

The Catholic Church is absolutely necessary for salvation. I never said she wasn’t.

As stated above, she does not have to be a member of the Catholic Church in order to be saved. This belief is heresy.

 

[The_Reginator]

Why be Catholic if it doesn’t matter? It does matter. We are very blessed. We have the fullness of faith. We have the sacraments. We have the Holy Eucharist. I think that people who are not practicing Catholics have a much harder time becoming saved. I wish that everyone in the world was a Catholic, practicing and believing in the One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

That’s how I attempt to explain things.

I’m tending to look at the situation this way:
Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. True.
But a protestant with a very strong faith in our Lord, although separated (due to, say, growing up in a protestant family) from the Church can be saved –

1. By the Church, through her prayers and devotions for all believers
   &
2. By their own faith that keeps them connected to Christ’s Church even if they do not recognize the fact.

Hmmm… That may not make as much sense as it did in my head, but it’s getting late.

 

[Justin_Mee]

That’s how I attempt to explain things.

I’m tending to look at the situation this way:
Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. True.
But a protestant with a very strong faith in our Lord, although separated (due to, say, growing up in a protestant family) from the Church can be saved –

1. By the Church, through her prayers and devotions for all believers
   &
2. By their own faith that keeps them connected to Christ’s Church even if they do not recognize the fact.

No. 1, I will agree.
No. 2, needs to be expanded. If it is explained to you that Jesus is present at the Mass in Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, and you choose to ignore it; I don’t think you can be saved. If, you believe it but chose to stay away; how can you be saved? If you have never had it explained to you in a manner that is understandable to you, then No. 2 would be reasonable. This, of course, is reasoning in the little minds of men, so, it is a big chance to take.

 

[CradleCath]

Geez, the Feeneyites are back AGAIN. When are the moderators going to stop this?

 

[RosaryCrusader]

Hard to tell whether this is a wilfull misrepresentation or just a repeating of the myth that some websites keep propagating.

From one of the many sources that cites the condemnation:
Nothing could be further from the truth. On August 8, 1949, the Holy Office sent a letter to Archbishop Richard James Cushing of Boston condemning Father Feeney’s error. In this letter, the Holy Office explained that, “…among those things which the Church has always preached and will never cease to preach is contained also that infallible statement by which we are taught that there is no salvation outside the Church. However, this dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church herself understands it. For, it was not to private judgments that Our Savior gave for explanation those things that are contained in the deposit of faith, but to the teaching authority of the Church.”

As to whether the excommunication was lifted, yes it was. Was it done so lawfully? All but those few who support the Feeney position deny that it was since it did not comply with the canonical need to repent of dogmatic error. Can his “spiritual descendents” be in actual full communion with the Church? Again, aside from those who cling to the errors of Fr. Feeney, none support the idea that one can be in opposition to the stated meaning of the dogma by the only valid authority, the Church, and still be in communion.

lasalettejourney.blogspot.com/2008/10/did-father-feeney-and-his-followers.html

I’m not a canon lawyer and will not attempt to make the judgment myself but those representing the Church disagree with the concept that one can hold the Feeney position and be in full communion and advise great caution in promoting a disobedience to Mother Church that could put one’s salvation in jeopardy. Or, as Jesus put it, “It were better for him, that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should scandalize one of these little ones.”

Visit the link I provided earlier which has scanned copies of the relevant authority’s documents saying they’re in full communion and are also allowed to not only teach what Fr. Feeney was saying but to propagate it. Did you know that Fr. Frank Pavone hosts retreats at the “Feeneyite” retreat center? So does the FSSP and others. Why? Because they’re in full communion. You need to educate yourself and stop having the typical knee jerk reaction thinking you’re a faithful son of the Church when you’re smearing Catholics who are in full communion - choosing to remain in ignorance. Charity as well as justice requires you educate yourself if you’re going to make condemnations which you’re not knowledgeable enough to make.

 

[ncjohn]

Visit the link I provided earlier which has scanned copies of the relevant authority’s documents saying they’re in full communion and are also allowed to not only teach what Fr. Feeney was saying but to propagate it. Did you know that Fr. Frank Pavone hosts retreats at the “Feeneyite” retreat center? So does the FSSP and others. Why? Because they’re in full communion. You need to educate yourself and stop having the typical knee jerk reaction thinking you’re a faithful son of the Church when you’re smearing Catholics who are in full communion - choosing to remain in ignorance. Charity as well as justice requires you educate yourself if you’re going to make condemnations which you’re not knowledgeable enough to make.

I am quite familiar with all of what you’ve posted and don’t need to be lectured by you. And I’m also very familiar with the requirement of canon law, both current and previous versions, that excommunications cannot be “legally” be lifted in the absence of recantation. I am neither ignorant nor unknowledgeable about the issue so please keep your personal insults to yourself.

I am also not making any condemnations whatsoever. In fact I expressly noted that I am not qualified to do so. I am simply putting people on notice that those within the Church knowledgeable about canon law disagree with any idea that either Fr. Feeney or his current followers can actually be in communion with the Church. The Church has also made it abundantly clear what they are teaching with regard to this. If they are correct, and somebody mistakenly sidestepped the requirements for reconcilliation which has now created such confusion, people are possibly gambling their salvation on holding this view.

If it’s that important an issue for you I certainly wouldn’t presume to suggest that you change your views. For those who are wondering if it is legitimate and safe to hold such views, I’m providing the information on what canon law says, and what the Church teaches, so they have the information to make their decision. Holding the view yourself is one thing; encouraging others to do so is really gambling with putting that millstone around your neck. I’m really baffled at why it would bother you for people to have all the information available from both sides of the discussion.

I personally can’t find presuming to define what God can do worth gambling on. I’ll just stick with what the Church has clearly said her understanding of the dogma is rather than risk second-guessing her.

 

[joedecarlo]

EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALLUS

-Saint Cyprian of Carthage 3rd Century bishop

“all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body.” - CCC

Jesus Christ established one Church.

“Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it” (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium)

When I attended Catholic schools during the 50’s and early 60’s, we were taught that no non-Catholic could achieve salvation. That was an infallible teaching. I understand that Infallible teaching is no longer adhered to.

 

[distracted]

i have been angry @ God b4… very angry at certain times in my life… and if you knw what was going on, you would probably understand why i was so angry…

but even so… i never questioned … when i heard that only few are saved… God’s perfect justice…

i don’t get it when people get angry at God when they hear that few are saved… angry enough to abandon the Church… They should direct their anger at the people who choose to go away from Him…living their lives doing their own worldly thing rather t han doing what HE wants…

the fact (and it seems to be a fact… but in any case the IDEA) that many end up in Hell… that even MOST end up in Hell… does not take away from God being, as 1 Jn 4 says “love”…

all it says is that people are sinful and don’t love God enough… and even the ones who DO love him… well, sometimes it is just an affection they FEEL for Him… not real love… because when there is true love of God, there is love of His commandmnets… love of HIS ways… and when there is love of his comandments there is an effort to conform to them… We fail right and left… but those who try end up at least in Purg…

i see all around me people violating God’s 2nd commandmnet… to love others as yourself… I see so little love anymore… getting particularly bad in the last several yrs… maybe partly cuz we have a president who has no apparent love for the unborn humans… but i digress…

people just love themsleves…

why is it so surprising to hear that few are saved? I see nothing but evil everywhere i look… even within, of course… but i am working on that… i have no problem with God “sending” me to Purgtory for many, many yrs when i die… I will be there exactly as long as i need to be…

I don’t feel i am going to Hell but i guess one never really knows…

i do know one thing… if i end up there it will be MY fault alone…

the souls in Hell hate God… they are only doing what they have done on Earth…

Pray for those who are on their way to Hell… offer up Masses for them… the most powerful prayer of all… Also Mary says to offer up sacrifices for them…

 

[distracted]

i used to look at people and think… They’re not doing so bad spiritually… seem to be nice people…" andthat kind of thing…

well, that’s just as much judging as if i said they were rotten horrible people and are going straight to Hell when they die…

people ALWAYS try to look good in public… whether they ARE good is … or can be… a totally different story…

We should never assume that ANYONE is going to get into Heaven… I feel it is best to assume they are going to Hell…

according to Jesus and the saints they likely ARE… no matter who they are or how nice they seem to be… Jesus (by the way) never said to be “nice” whatever the heck tht subjective soundign word means…

Jesus…

Why do we have to grow up??

If we were baptized infants or young children forever… and never “grew up” we would all make it to Heaven…

 

[LittleSoldier]

I’m not referencing an individual’s blog entry - I’m referencing the documents contained on them signed by Church hierarchy and Roman offices saying that they’re free to hold Fr. Feeney’s views in full communion with the Church. The Vatican has said that those who hold the more strict interpretation are just as free as those who hold the more liberal view.

Like it or not that’s fact and if it’s heresy that makes a good number of Popes, Saints, doctors of the Church and revered theologians ‘heretics’ according to you.

Rome has ruled, the members of St. Benedict are in full communion - I understand you don’t like this - but sorry, you have to deal with it now and cease calumniating them. If you’re not going to follow the links and see the evidence you deceive only yourself and reveal your bad will.

I am not the one who said Feeney was a heretic; Feeneyism is a heresy and if you state that you agree with it, you are leading people away from Truth.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Geez, the Feeneyites are back AGAIN. When are the moderators going to stop this?

Maybe you can help. They don’t believe me. A heresy is a heresy is a heresy, no matter how many website say differently.

 

[LittleSoldier]

When I attended Catholic schools during the 50’s and early 60’s, we were taught that no non-Catholic could achieve salvation. That was an infallible teaching. I understand that Infallible teaching is no longer adhered to.

It wasn’t an infallible teaching. It was mistakenly thought as an infallible teaching by many. I went to Catholic school then, too.

 

[RosaryCrusader]

I am quite familiar with all of what you’ve posted and don’t need to be lectured by you. And I’m also very familiar with the requirement of canon law, both current and previous versions, that excommunications cannot be “legally” be lifted in the absence of recantation. I am neither ignorant nor unknowledgeable about the issue so please keep your personal insults to yourself.

I am also not making any condemnations whatsoever. In fact I expressly noted that I am not qualified to do so. I am simply putting people on notice that those within the Church knowledgeable about canon law disagree with any idea that either Fr. Feeney or his current followers can actually be in communion with the Church. The Church has also made it abundantly clear what they are teaching with regard to this. If they are correct, and somebody mistakenly sidestepped the requirements for reconcilliation which has now created such confusion, people are possibly gambling their salvation on holding this view.

If it’s that important an issue for you I certainly wouldn’t presume to suggest that you change your views. For those who are wondering if it is legitimate and safe to hold such views, I’m providing the information on what canon law says, and what the Church teaches, so they have the information to make their decision. Holding the view yourself is one thing; encouraging others to do so is really gambling with putting that millstone around your neck. I’m really baffled at why it would bother you for people to have all the information available from both sides of the discussion.

I personally can’t find presuming to define what God can do worth gambling on. I’ll just stick with what the Church has clearly said her understanding of the dogma is rather than risk second-guessing her.

Evidently you do need to be lectured by me. The same Church that excommunicated Fr. Feeney has now admitted his orders into full communion with the Church w/o having to recant anything. You may not understand why, you may not like it - but it is what it is and anyone who says otherwise, as you continue to do, are going against the Church. Where does that put you? It puts you in the same boat that Fr. Feeney originally found himself in; disobedient to lawful Church authority. Irony of ironies - you may want to think about that.

We should be happy when someone or a group of people are admitted back into the Church. It reminds me of the parable of the prodigal son - the older son resenting his younger brother being accepted back into the family. But in this case the readmittance of Fr. Feeney’s orders w/o having to recant clearly exposes the bureacratic elements involved in the prior dealings with him leading up to his excommunication. He was clearly dealt with unjustly; not even being told who his accusers were or what were the accusations which was required by canon law. Even secular, godless, courts allow this basic right of knowing your accusers and what is being brought against you. I think readmitting SBC is a quiet admission of fault.

…and for what it’s worth I’m not a “Feeneyite.” I’m of the same opinion as this good Priest of the FSSP:

audiosancto.org/sermon/20091115-Salvation-is-Only-in-the-Catholic-Church.html

End of lecture.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Visit the link I provided earlier which has scanned copies of the relevant authority’s documents saying they’re in full communion and are also allowed to not only teach what Fr. Feeney was saying but to propagate it. Did you know that Fr. Frank Pavone hosts retreats at the “Feeneyite” retreat center? So does the FSSP and others. Why? Because they’re in full communion. You need to educate yourself and stop having the typical knee jerk reaction thinking you’re a faithful son of the Church when you’re smearing Catholics who are in full communion - choosing to remain in ignorance. Charity as well as justice requires you educate yourself if you’re going to make condemnations which you’re not knowledgeable enough to make.

Such language!! My goodness!! I’d heard that this particular forum was the nastiest in CAF and I believe it. It’s one thing to discuss and debate a subject using repectful language. You have crossed the line. You speak of another poster “smearing Catholics who are in full communion.” That is not a nice thing to say and it isn’t even true. You speak of charity but you show none yourself.

Your conclusion as to why “Father” Frank Pavone and the FSSP are in full communion is not logical.

premise 1: Fr. Pavone and the FSSP host retreats at the Feeneyite retreat center.
conclusion: Ergo, they are in full communion.

Does that make sense? No, it does not.

What difference does it make if “Father” Pavone hosts retreats at the “Feeneyite” retreat center? What makes you think he and his followers are in full communion? The members of “Catholics for Choice” probably host retreats too, probably run by priests. Are they in full communion? What about those who believe that women should have the option of becoming priests and teach this as Church dogma? Are they in full communion? Should we now say that the Church teaches that abortion is fine and “good Catholics use condoms” and women should be allowed to become priests?

Heresies are rampant and one of the reasons is that people do not educate themselves. So far on this thread I have been told that Feeney’s words were not condemned- lie. They were condemned. Feeney himself was excommunicated and it is true he was excommunicated for his failure to present himself at the Vatican. Why do you think he was ordered to go to the Vatican and why did he DISOBEY? Wasn’t he in full communion? Why would someone in full communion be excommunicated? He was excommunicated because he was teaching heresy and refused to stop. The Church ordered him to appear at the Vatican to try to get some sense into him. He refused and was excommunicated.

You speak of another “choosing to remain in ignorance.” You are the one who is ignorant and no matter how angry you become it does not change the fact that Feeneyism is a heresy (that, unfortunately, refuses to die).