What am I?

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Oldtimer_7 said:
Laughing Crow, you are way ahead of a lot of Christians in your understanding. There seems to be a large group who think that Jesus Christ is the son of John and Mary Christ.

I would love to hear your point of view on comparing Jesus’ Passion in Matthew 27:15-54 and the 22nd Psalm. As an associated question, how do you look on the idea of prophecy?
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I am unfamiliar with those. Could you please link them? I would look them up myself but i busted my net cap so dial up speeds for me >.<

As for prophecy, im not sure. I do believe some people can forsee the future but at the same time I dislike the idea as it means I have no control over my own life as it is already pre-determined what actions I will make. Recently a friend introduced me to a series called ‘The Saxon Stories’ by Bernard Cornewell in which they often use an anglo-saxon phrase “Wyrd bið ful aræd” which means “Fate is inexorable” linked to the old Norse belief of the Three Weavers who control fate of man and gods. My friend liked the phrase so much he had them tattooed onto his arm. Im rambling sorry 😊.

To be short, yes I do believe in prophecy, but I believe those who can actual preform it are rare.
 
My comment was in a light-hearted vein and a take-off on something that N. T. Wright, the Anglican bishop of Durham, England wrote in one of his many works. There have been and are groups that deny Jesus’ divinity. In fact, this was one of the early conflicts in the church. Though they might disagree, I would consider Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons as two modern groups that do not see Jesus as divine. Certainly, Islam denies Jesus’ divinity.

There is a significant difference between prophecy as popularly understood and that inspired by God. I could claim to prophesy that your next meal out will be cooked by an Australian, but that doesn’t take a lot of doing. No need to invoke a deity here, unless there is a god that makes us look up to read personal info.

The prophecies in the Bible rarely had to to with things happening within the lifetime of those who heard them spoken. If we take my example of the 22nd Psalm, there is a gap of some centuries between the speaking of the Psalm and its realization in Jesus’ passion.

There is a second aspect of prophecy that involves telling truth to power, Thus John the Baptizer’s condemnation of the marriage of Herod Antipas and Herodias led to John’s death. Herod eventually comes to a gruesome end, though we do not know what happened to Herodias. This is found in Matthew 14:3-12 and Mark 6:17-29. Here we have a prophet not predicting the future, but commenting on the state of society.

This aspect of prophecy is the more important. If we consider Jesus as prophet, He did not come to predict that we all would go to Hell, but that we could be saved. Read John 3:16-17 for this passage.

Finally, I am willing to forgive any of your digressions if you will forgive mine.
 
Laughing crow, I don’t really have an answer for you exactly but I’d like to offer up my two cents.
Why do you ask “What am I?” Is it because you want to pursue a religious education, but don’t know which one to choose? Is it that certain aspects of joining a religion sound nice to you? Is it because you don’t want people to make assumptions about your beliefs when you tell them you’re an atheist? Is it because your beliefs are kind of hazy to you, and you want them to be clearer, and think finding like-minded people will help with that? Or was it just bc you were bored and thought it would be an interesting discussion, not actually trying to find the right religion for you?

I myself am bored, so I’m not going to post that and wait for an answer. I’m just going to answer what I feel like answering right now.
If you want to join a religion/or ascribe to a certain philosophy such as atheism, I suggest checking out religioustolerance.org. They have all sorts of religions on there I never even heard of. Awhile back I asked myself a question that was different than yours but still kind of similar: are there any religions that I can say I believe in? See, I am half-Jewish, half-Catholic, 100% atheist. As you may or may not know, being half Jewish makes one Jewish. There are many aspects of my Jewish heritage that make me proud so when the subject of religion comes up in conversation, I will mention that I am Jewish. But that’s pretty much a lie bc I am culturally and genetically Jewish, not religiously Jewish. But I was like well wouldn’t it be nice if I really was this thing I claim to be proud of? But when I read even like one sentence on Judaism, I’m like 🤷 Ok that’s actually a shrug smiley but at first I thought he was doing thumbs down and since there is no thumbs down smiley, I’m going to leave it.
Despite being a “devout” atheist, there are some things about religion that appeal to me, so I went on a little internet mission to find out if any religions might be suited for me. I was hoping I could call myself some sort of neopagan religion bc I like the whole nature thing and also I like jewelry with pagan symbols on it! Alas, the pagan religions are theistic. Although I like the idea of Mother Nature better than the Abrahamic religions’ God, I simply do not believe it! Scratch that off the list. Finally I settled on Humanistic Judaism as the religion I would choose if I felt like it. (it emphasizes Jewish culture and Jewish history - rather than belief in God - as the sources of Jewish identity. Its rituals and ceremonies usually do not include prayer or any invocation of a deity 👍 )
I went off on that little tangent which probably no one cares about bc I just thought that if finding and belonging to a particular religion is what you seek, you might want to pay extra close attention to the pagan religions (bc their beliefs in souls and afterlives might jibe with yours) and to Humanistic denominations, of which there are both religious and secular, bc they reject reject/deny/or at least de-emphasize deities, as do you.
So that actually took me awhile to write so now I don’t even feel like answering my other questions so I will just leave you with that.
 
Oldtimer_7 said:
My comment was in a light-hearted vein and a take-off on something that N. T. Wright, the Anglican bishop of Durham, England wrote in one of his many works. There have been and are groups that deny Jesus’ divinity. In fact, this was one of the early conflicts in the church. Though they might disagree, I would consider Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons as two modern groups that do not see Jesus as divine. Certainly, Islam denies Jesus’ divinity.

There is a significant difference between prophecy as popularly understood and that inspired by God. I could claim to prophesy that your next meal out will be cooked by an Australian, but that doesn’t take a lot of doing. No need to invoke a deity here, unless there is a god that makes us look up to read personal info.

The prophecies in the Bible rarely had to to with things happening within the lifetime of those who heard them spoken. If we take my example of the 22nd Psalm, there is a gap of some centuries between the speaking of the Psalm and its realization in Jesus’ passion.

There is a second aspect of prophecy that involves telling truth to power, Thus John the Baptizer’s condemnation of the marriage of Herod Antipas and Herodias led to John’s death. Herod eventually comes to a gruesome end, though we do not know what happened to Herodias. This is found in Matthew 14:3-12 and Mark 6:17-29. Here we have a prophet not predicting the future, but commenting on the state of society.

This aspect of prophecy is the more important. If we consider Jesus as prophet, He did not come to predict that we all would go to Hell, but that we could be saved. Read John 3:16-17 for this passage.

Finally, I am willing to forgive any of your digressions if you will forgive mine.
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Oh I agree, there is ‘fortune telling’ and then ‘prophecy’, and as you said, most prophecies take places years, sometimes centuries after they are predicted.

Im afraid the part about ‘aspect of prophecy that involves telling truth to power’ went over my head, sorry. Could you elaborate one what you mean?

As for your part about digressions, I apologise if I insulted anyone on here. I did not enter here with a ‘sword drawn’, I left my ‘weapons’ at the door as I did not want to leave here shedding blood. That was something our debate and history teacher said to us. Basically it means you cant hope to enter a debate/arguement/discussion and come out of it happy if you go in there with the intention of willfully attacking the other sides beliefs and ideals.
 
Truth to power. Grab a Bible or go to Biblegateway.com and look at the book of Matthew 14:3-12. Pick a translation that you are comfortable with. I like the English Standard Version, but the Contemporary English Version is also very readable. We aren’t going into the declension of Greek verbs or anything like that, so just read the story.

The Herodians were the puppets of the Romans, but they were the secular rulers of Judea. They claimed to be Jewish, a claim that was not accepted by all Jews. One of the Jewish precepts for a ruler was that he had to be honorable. The Romans were pretty pragmatic about subject rulers, but did want them to have influence among the subject people. The marriage between Herod Antipas and Herodias was one of the banned degrees of kinship. Therefore, Herod Antipas could not represent the Jewish people to the Romans, nor could he intercede if he were not respected by his own people. Regardless of one’s feelings about Herod Antipas and his family, they were the power in Judea.

In the birthday party in question, the daughter of Herodias is probably about 10-12 years old and Herod A has her acting like a prostitute rather than a princess. Rather than look like a piker before his drunken guests, he has John the Baptizer beheaded on the wishes of Herodias, who knows an opportunity when she sees one. Thus John is killed not because he has made some prediction that was displeasing to the queen, but because he told the truth. Jesus does the same with the Pharisees and that is why later on, He is also put to death on trumped up charges.

There is a huge difference between coming here armed to do combat and prepared to discuss issues. Discomfort is just a natural accompaniment to the process. Your hard questions and views are welcome here. I do not recall that you have attacked anyone personally, though you have criticized, rightly, others arguments. This is as it should be. I have enjoyed our dialog and look forward to more.
 
Oldtimer_7 said:
Truth to power. Grab a Bible or go to Biblegateway.com and look at the book of Matthew 14:3-12. Pick a translation that you are comfortable with. I like the English Standard Version, but the Contemporary English Version is also very readable. We aren’t going into the declension of Greek verbs or anything like that, so just read the story.

The Herodians were the puppets of the Romans, but they were the secular rulers of Judea. They claimed to be Jewish, a claim that was not accepted by all Jews. One of the Jewish precepts for a ruler was that he had to be honorable. The Romans were pretty pragmatic about subject rulers, but did want them to have influence among the subject people. The marriage between Herod Antipas and Herodias was one of the banned degrees of kinship. Therefore, Herod Antipas could not represent the Jewish people to the Romans, nor could he intercede if he were not respected by his own people. Regardless of one’s feelings about Herod Antipas and his family, they were the power in Judea.

In the birthday party in question, the daughter of Herodias is probably about 10-12 years old and Herod A has her acting like a prostitute rather than a princess. Rather than look like a piker before his drunken guests, he has John the Baptizer beheaded on the wishes of Herodias, who knows an opportunity when she sees one. Thus John is killed not because he has made some prediction that was displeasing to the queen, but because he told the truth. Jesus does the same with the Pharisees and that is why later on, He is also put to death on trumped up charges.

There is a huge difference between coming here armed to do combat and prepared to discuss issues. Discomfort is just a natural accompaniment to the process. Your hard questions and views are welcome here. I do not recall that you have attacked anyone personally, though you have criticized, rightly, others arguments. This is as it should be. I have enjoyed our dialog and look forward to more.
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Ah now I see, I did look up the passages you mentioned but it went a little over my head (then again it was 1AM here). Im afraid I still dont see this as prophocey, it was more John stated an obvious fact and was killed because it displesed Queen Herodia. Basically he was killed for preaching common sence 🤷

I have not meant to attack anyone and I apologize if anyone has felt like I did. I often speak my mind, which often leads to people thinking I am attackign their views when I am simply expressing mine so I have always tried to be careful about how I phrase my words in the hopes I do not come across as arguementative.
 
Laughing Crow, I do think you got it. We are our own worst judges. We need someone to show us who we really are. Sadly, like Herodias, we most often cannot stand the truth, nor is it anything that we seem to be able to find willingly.

To this point, let me quote that master observer of human and lousy behaviour, Mr. Robert Burns:

O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us,
An’ foolish notion:
What airs in dress an’ gait wad lea’e us,
An’ ev’n devotion!
 
Oldtimer_7 said:
Laughing Crow, I do think you got it. We are our own worst judges. We need someone to show us who we really are. Sadly, like Herodias, we most often cannot stand the truth, nor is it anything that we seem to be able to find willingly.

To this point, let me quote that master observer of human and lousy behaviour, Mr. Robert Burns:

O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us,
An’ foolish notion:
What airs in dress an’ gait wad lea’e us,
An’ ev’n devotion!
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Didn’t you and Robbie Burns go to high school together, OT? 😛
 
Randy, you’re just picking on me because I was 16 before I had my first bath. I had to wait that long for them to invent dirt.
 
Oldtimer_7 said:
Laughing Crow, I do think you got it. We are our own worst judges. We need someone to show us who we really are. Sadly, like Herodias, we most often cannot stand the truth, nor is it anything that we seem to be able to find willingly.

To this point, let me quote that master observer of human and lousy behaviour, Mr. Robert Burns:

O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us,
An’ foolish notion:
What airs in dress an’ gait wad lea’e us,
An’ ev’n devotion!
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I see, actually that is one way of interperating the Nietzsche qoute in my signature, the ‘abyss’ being our human nature or our darker selves which is rather nasty (though this could be argued) and thus many of us dont look into the abyss as we cant face the truth of what we are and what we have done.
 
Oldtimer_7 said:
Laughing Crow, I do think you got it. We are our own worst judges. We need someone to show us who we really are. Sadly, like Herodias, we most often cannot stand the truth, nor is it anything that we seem to be able to find willingly.

To this point, let me quote that master observer of human and lousy behaviour, Mr. Robert Burns:

O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us,
An’ foolish notion:
What airs in dress an’ gait wad lea’e us,
An’ ev’n devotion!
Click to expand...
That’s one “giftie” that I, for one, am ECSTATIC ^3 that we do not have!!!

The psychological beating each of us would take if we did, would far outweigh the few social “blunders” we would avoid each year. While nobody likes social blunders, they are, after all, a normal part of human life.

And, back on point, I doubt that any one of us has one person in our life that can truthfully “show us who we really are.”

God Bless and ICXC NIKA.
 
GEddie,

I was also thinking of John 6:66 in my comment. Truth gets a lot of lip service, but being faced with it, many of us, including yours truly, often cut and run. I think also of St. Peter after he betrayed Jesus. Jesus showed St. St Peter just who he was with only a glance. In this regard, one of the ways of looking at the Bible is that it tells us much about who we are. This is a great way to see it, especially now, in the season of Lent.

Laughing Crow, now that we are on common ground as to how to understand the Bible, I will return to an idea that I offered to you earlier. Since you are now seeing an aspect of the philosophical and heuristic nature of Christianity, are you ready to explore how it works on the ground? Have you connected with a faith community?
 
Oldtimer_7 said:
GEddie,

I was also thinking of John 6:66 in my comment. Truth gets a lot of lip service, but being faced with it, many of us, including yours truly, often cut and run. I think also of St. Peter after he betrayed Jesus. Jesus showed St. St Peter just who he was with only a glance. In this regard, one of the ways of looking at the Bible is that it tells us much about who we are. This is a great way to see it, especially now, in the season of Lent.

Laughing Crow, now that we are on common ground as to how to understand the Bible, I will return to an idea that I offered to you earlier. Since you are now seeing an aspect of the philosophical and heuristic nature of Christianity, are you ready to explore how it works on the ground? Have you connected with a faith community?
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The primary problem with connectign to a faith community is I live in the out back, a good 20-50 ks from any church ad I am still on my L plates so transportation is difficult.
 
I fully understand. I live out back of beyond, too. And if your petrol prices are like ours, just getting into town gets really expensive in a hurry. The thing is that once you make contact, it suddenly becomes much easier for things to happen. I am glad that you at least have looked at the situation and what it would take to connect with a community. You might also consider making a phone call to one of the nearby churches and tell them of your interest. Again, it may surprise you how this may work out. Keep in touch.
 
Oldtimer_7 said:
I fully understand. I live out back of beyond, too. And if your petrol prices are like ours, just getting into town gets really expensive in a hurry. The thing is that once you make contact, it suddenly becomes much easier for things to happen. I am glad that you at least have looked at the situation and what it would take to connect with a community. You might also consider making a phone call to one of the nearby churches and tell them of your interest. Again, it may surprise you how this may work out. Keep in touch.
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Well Hopefully these problems will be aleviated sometime this week. I have applied for a job and Ill know if I have it around Wednesday so petrol prices will be less of a worry if I am able to pay for it myself.
 
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