What Archbishop Bugnini Really Said - The Article that Proves It

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YoungTradCath said:
This is straight from the Roman Missal.

"For the unity of Christians

Let us pray also for all our brothers and sisters who believe in Christ,
that our God and Lord may be pleased,
as they live the truth,
to gather them together and keep them in his one Church."

I believe this is extremely ambiguous, but I’ll leave it up to the Holy See.

"For the Jewish People

Let us pray also for the Jewish people,
to whom the Lord our God spoke first,
that he may grant them to advance in love of his name
and in faithfulness to his covenant."

The tiny, tiny hint to the rejection of truth is at the words, “faithfulness to his covenant.”
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What is ambiguous about that? It is clear to me that prayer is expressing the hope that all who believe in Christ will one day be fully part of the Catholic Church.
 
thistle said:
What is ambiguous about that? It is clear to me that prayer is expressing the hope that all who believe in Christ will one day be fully part of the Catholic Church.
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Then why not say keep them in the Catholic Church instead of His one true church? A protestant reading that or hearing that may very well believe that the Baptists comprise the true churh. Likewise the Methodists or any other protestant group.

While the prayer may be very clear to us as Catholics it probably is not clear at all to protestants.
 
Mike30 said:
Then why not say keep them in the Catholic Church instead of His one true church? A protestant reading that or hearing that may very well believe that the Baptists comprise the true churh. Likewise the Methodists or any other protestant group.

While the prayer may be very clear to us as Catholics it probably is not clear at all to protestants.
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The one Church IS the Catholic Church and Protestants know very well what Catholics mean by the one Church. We always tell them the Catholic Church is the one true Church and that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. They would have to pretty stupid to think a Catholic prayer meant their own Protestant church is the one!!
You are looking for faults where none exist.
 
thistle said:
The one Church IS the Catholic Church and Protestants know very well what Catholics mean by the one Church. We always tell them the Catholic Church is the one true Church and that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. They would have to pretty stupid to think a Catholic prayer meant their own Protestant church is the one!!
You are looking for faults where none exist.
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Especially when the Catholic Church has, from Unitatis Redintegratio onward, notably refused to apply the label “church” to Protestant organizations, terming them mere “ecclesial communities” instead, a fact which has long rankled the Protestants.
 
thistle said:
What is ambiguous about that? It is clear to me that prayer is expressing the hope that all who believe in Christ will one day be fully part of the Catholic Church.
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Because it at least implies that they are “living the truth.” Of course we should pray for them, but I think in at least a more direct manner, especially since it’s not like 99% of them hear Catholic liturgical prayers at the Holy Sacrifice of Mass.
 
thistle said:
The one Church IS the Catholic Church and Protestants know very well what Catholics mean by the one Church. We always tell them the Catholic Church is the one true Church and that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. They would have to pretty stupid to think a Catholic prayer meant their own Protestant church is the one!!
You are looking for faults where none exist.
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With all due respect sir, they sure don’t believe that we are the one true Church, I can assure you of that.

Why are you being so confronational? Have I done something to offend you in some way?
 
MarkThompson said:
Especially when the Catholic Church has, from Unitatis Redintegratio onward, notably refused to apply the label “church” to Protestant organizations, terming them mere “ecclesial communities” instead, a fact which has long rankled the Protestants.
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The problem is, is that most protestants have no idea that this is the case, so the ambiguity is certain in those whom do not know the truth of the matter, which is the majority of anyone outside the one true Church, and, certainly a large portion within the Church.
 
Irish_Polock said:
The problem is, is that most protestants have no idea that this is the case, so the ambiguity is certain in those whom do not know the truth of the matter, which is the majority of anyone outside the one true Church, and a certainly a large portion within the Church.
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Most Protestants also do not go to some long, Roman Catholic service on Good Friday, so I guess it’s a wash then.
 
MarkThompson said:
Especially when the Catholic Church has, from Unitatis Redintegratio onward, notably refused to apply the label “church” to Protestant organizations, terming them mere “ecclesial communities” instead, a fact which has long rankled the Protestants.
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“Mere?”

I thought, for a moment, that I was starting to understand the debate.

Now, however, I realise that I have no idea at all why the prayer was changed.
 
MarkThompson said:
Most Protestants also do not go to some long, Roman Catholic service on Good Friday, so I guess it’s a wash then.
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I think that the real problem here isn’t with protestants and the prayer. It is with poorly catechized Catholics and the prayer. If you took a representative sampling of Catholics I would venture to say that a high percentage of them don’t know that the Church is the one true Church, even if many of us us who frequent these forums do, Heck I have seen people, self identified as Catholics, ask on this forum if they can fulfill their Sunday obligation by attending a protestant service and when answered in the negative have trouble accepting it.
 
Warrenton said:
I did not say the new prayer is innacurate. I said the old prayer was more accurate. It’s a small point, but I think it is important.
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I do not doubt that, but I question its importance. Indeed, if neither prayer is inaccurate, yet the older one is more accurate, that is why I said it is a question of prudence. It is not always best when engaging in ecumenism to confront every disagreement in the most accurate way. I remember upon my conversion, I am glad that I was able to separate only the simplest and most basic points of divergence from the way I was raised and the Catholic faith. If I had attempted extreme accuracy in all ways, I would have been distracted from secondary matters and not able to properly consider the primary matters. For example, the matter of authority by necessity had to precede other doctrines, like Marian doctrines, the Saints and the hierarchy. I guess that is why I understand the necessity of reducing things as basic as prayers for our separated brothers to the basics, even if it does not include as much stuff we disagree on.

My goodness folks, it is a prayer, not a sermon or an apologetic treatise. Let us approach the altar of God with the intent of unity. Leave the more complex stuff for other venue. This is why I see it as a matter of prudence. Perhaps even my conversion is the product of the Holy Spirit leading the Church is a different direction, so I guess I may be prejudice in this.
 
Mike30 said:
With all due respect sir,** they sure don’t believe that we are the one true Churc**h, I can assure you of that.

Why are you being so confronational? Have I done something to offend you in some way?
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That is correct but they do know that when we talk about the one true Church we mean the Catholic Church.
You are saying the prayer is ambiguous and I am saying it is not. Are you implying that anyone who disagrees with you is confrontational?
 
thistle said:
That is correct but they do know that when we talk about the one true Church we mean the Catholic Church.
You are saying the prayer is ambiguous and I am saying it is not. Are you implying that anyone who disagrees with you is confrontational?
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**You are looking for faults where none exist. ** your words.

Are you implying that someone who does not agree with you is trying to find fault where none exists?

As to what I said, yes, to the uninformed, both Catholic and protestant, the prayer can indeed be ambiguous.
 
An even poignant question, is not what Protestants understand of the prayer, but what does the average Catholic think it means?

Edited: I just realized that’s what you said Mike in post 49. :o
 
Mike30 said:
**You are looking for faults where none exist. ** your words.

Are you implying that someone who does not agree with you is trying to find fault where none exists?

As to what I said, yes, to the uninformed, both Catholic and protestant, the prayer can indeed be ambiguous.
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It is irrelevant what Protestants think. It is a Catholic prayer and Catholics know that when the Catholic Church refers to the one true Church it is talking about the Catholic Church.
 
thistle said:
It is irrelevant what Protestants think. It is a Catholic prayer and Catholics know that when the Catholic Church refers to the one true Church it is talking about the Catholic Church.
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You are looking for faults where none exist. your words.

Nice sidestep. Not all Catholics do know. You only have to read some of the posts on this forum to know that.
 
thistle said:
It is irrelevant what Protestants think. It is a Catholic prayer and Catholics know that when the Catholic Church refers to the one true Church it is talking about the Catholic Church.
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I’d venture to say many do not.
 
thistle said:
I’m all ears. How many Catholics have you spoken to that do not know the Catholic Church is the one true Church?
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I’ve met many who think going to the local Baptist churches is the same as going to Catholic mass, particularly those around my age and into their twenties.
 
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