What Archbishop Bugnini Really Said - The Article that Proves It

  • Thread starter Thread starter QOM
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Did you forget the words were changed from “heretic” to brothers and sisters? Yes it’s true that the first generation that left the Church as Protestants were heretics, and many papal documents appealed to them to return the the faith.

However, as Lumen Gentium recognized (and other previous popes in our century wrote) the children born in subsequent generations are innocent and believe that what their parents taught them is true. Yet they love Christ, and the Church states that through their baptism, they are in the Mystical Body of His Church, while belonging to the Protestant faith. That designation of non-catholic did not change, except for their oneness in Spirit through the Holy Spirit having been bestowed in baptism.

There’s just no getting around that truth, Warrenton. Like it or not. That is why we can no longer call them heretics, because the choice to abandon the faith was nonexistent in our era.
But there are inevitably Protestants who, for whatever reason, know about or know of the truth of the Catholic faith, yet still reject it. To go ahead and label all Protestants as hopelessly ignorant is a broad stroke of the brush. And even then, that doesn’t change the fact that Protestantism itself is a heresy. Although, I will concede that probably many Protestants are hopelessly ignorant.
 
Please do not supplant my words with your own coloring. **I did not say that they are *****hopelessly ignorant. ***You seem to be looking for an argument, YTC, in your choice of wording “broad stroke of the brush.”

You profess to know your faith well, yet you are unaware (?) that LG states that those who know the truth of Catholicism and choose to reject it are not included in the Mystical Body as I have described it. Read a little more about the pastoral consideration, that many non-Catholics reject what they have been exposed to with regard to our faith due to extremely prejudicial teachings that they were taught. It is difficult to overcome that bias, and pastorally, the Church is still encouraging them with patience and kindness.

As Pope Pius XII said emphatically, to force them to accept what in their heart they do not understand or profess as yet, they must be absolutely free to do so.
 
Please do not supplant my words with your own coloring. ** I did not say that they are *****hopelessly ignorant. *** You seem to be looking for an argument, YTC, in your choice of wording “broad stroke of the brush.”
**
You profess to know your faith well, yet you are unaware (?) that LG states that those who know **the truth of Catholicism and choose to reject it are not included in the Mystical Body as I have described it.
Hopeless ignorance is the idea the Church uses when she says, for example, even non-Christians (as in, aboriginal peoples, for example) can go to heaven. Hopeless ignorance is a term I use to say what you are saying. 🤷 In no way is it meant negatively. I don’t see how that’s bad. In fact, hopeless ignorance is a very kind concession to those peoples who have never been properly evangelized.

I’m looking for no argument.

Yes, I do know that (second paragraph). So we agree. That’s what I’m saying when I said, “But there are inevitably Protestants who, for whatever reason, know about or know of the truth of the Catholic faith, yet still reject it.” I used that as an example.
 
Did you forget the words were changed from “heretic” to brothers and sisters? Yes it’s true that the first generation that left the Church as Protestants were heretics, and many papal documents appealed to them to return the the faith.
What about all the generations between 1550 and 1960? What were they? If they weren’t heretics, how long was the prayer wrong? For 5 years, 50, for 100?
There’s just no getting around that truth, Warrenton. Like it or not. That is why we can no longer call them heretics, because the choice to abandon the faith was nonexistent in our era.
“Like it or not,” you’re avoiding my question. I don’t care what we call them. I usually call them Protestants, because that is what they call themselves.

The question is, if people can be saved as Protestants, then why be Catholic? This vague “fullness of truth” idea means zero to me. I’m not saying its right or wrong. I’m saying that the words connote no information that I can organize into a rational idea.

It’s like saying, if you stand still, you can have as many ice cream cones as you want, but not an ice cream sandwich. For a sandwich, you have to walk 100 miles. I’m getting ice cream either way. Why walk ten miles, let alone 100, for a sancwhich when I can have a cone right where I am? What is the difference between Protestant Heaven and Catholic Heaven? No one will answer that question for me.

I expect the reason no one will answer it is because everyone knows its vague, and no one has a clear idea about what we’re talking about.

I see that as a problem. Catholics are supposed to be clear, even when we talk about mysteries.
 
Yes, I do know that (second paragraph). So we agree. That’s what I’m saying when I said, “But there are inevitably Protestants who, for whatever reason, know about or know of the truth of the Catholic faith, yet still reject it.” I used that as an example.
That is the key.

Do they know the truth?

I didn’t.

It’s the difference between:

First person: I would never join the Catholic Church. They’re just too close-minded. and strict. Plus I don’t believe that women can’t be ordained. They’re a bunch of hypocrites.

Second Person: The Catholic Church does not adhere to the teachings of Christ. They partake in idolatry. We need to pray for them.

This is the one thing I disagree with when it comes to traditional Catholics. I know that God is merciful and when someone serves them with their whole heart as they know best, like my mom, who spent her whole life as a pious Christian woman, serving Jesus Christ, no one will tell me they are resigned to hell.

I leave it all up to God.

In the meanwhile, I will continue to share my faith with other Christians as much as possible and hope that God will use me to lead them to the truth.
 
Yes, I do know that (second paragraph). So we agree. That’s what I’m saying when I said, “But there are inevitably Protestants who, for whatever reason, know about or know of the truth of the Catholic faith, yet still reject it.” I used that as an example.
No, we don’t agree, because if that is true, then Sirach’s contention about Lumen Gentium makes even less sense.

It would be better to leave the Protestant where he is, because he can be saved just fine according to Sirach. If we convert him, we put him in danger of damnation if he switches back on us. He is acatually safer, and more assured of salvation, by staying Protestant.

But if he is more likely to be saved as Protestant, then that must mean that it’s better to be Protestant. That must mean Catholics are wrong. But that is wrong.

It’s weird. I just don’t see any way around the essence of Bugnini’s quote. He meant what he said, he meant what Levebvre said he meant, and it’s clear. What remains unclear are the greater implications of what he said, especially upon the idea of “church” within the context of an articulable Catholic meaning.
 
That is the key.

Do they know the truth?

I didn’t.

It’s the difference between:

First person: I would never join the Catholic Church. They’re just too close-minded. and strict. Plus I don’t believe that women can’t be ordained. They’re a bunch of hypocrites.

Second Person: The Catholic Church does not adhere to the teachings of Christ. They partake in idolatry. We need to pray for them.

This is the one thing I disagree with when it comes to traditional Catholics. I know that God is merciful and when someone serves them with their whole heart as they know best, like my mom, who spent her whole life as a pious Christian woman, serving Jesus Christ, no one will tell me they are resigned to hell.

I leave it all up to God.

In the meanwhile, I will continue to share my faith with other Christians as much as possible and hope that God will use me to lead them to the truth.
We really don’t know if they know. I am not professing to have that information. However, I will not accept in a discussion that all Protestants are going to be “saved” out of hopeless ignorance of the truth. We have to, for the sake of argument, accept that there are two possibilities for every Protestant:
  1. Hopeless ignorance, in which case the Protestant goes to heaven, or Purgatory then heaven.
  2. Knowledge of the truth, in which case the Protestant is condemned to hell.
I don’t have numbers, nor will I ever, and I don’t have names, nor will I ever, of the Protestants in either category. But we have to accept that both possibilities for every Protestant are very real.

I am leaving the determination to which Protestants are in either category to God. I’m just being the devil’s advocate here, absolutely no pun intended, to say that both possibilities exist and we have to accept both possibilities.

There very well could end up all Protestants going to hell, or all Protestants going to heaven, or an even split, or a disproportionate split. I don’t know, and no one knows, except God. But we have to accept both possibilities, 1 and 2.

And Protestantism itself is still a heresy whether the individual is a heretic or not.
 
No, we don’t agree, because if that is true, then Sirach’s contention about Lumen Gentium makes even less sense.

It would be better to leave the Protestant where he is, because he can be saved just fine according to Sirach. If we convert him, we put him in danger of damnation if he switches back on us. He is acatually safer, and more assured of salvation, by staying Protestant.

But if he is more likely to be saved as Protestant, then that must mean that it’s better to be Protestant. That must mean Catholics are wrong. But that is wrong.

It’s weird. I just don’t see any way around the essence of Bugnini’s quote. He meant what he said, he meant what Levebvre said he meant, and it’s clear. What remains unclear are the greater implications of what he said, especially upon the idea of “church” within the context of an articulable Catholic meaning.
I think you have my post mistaken. I was responding to Sirach, not you, when I was talking about agreeing.

Anyways, we do still agree. Not all Protestants are hopelessly ignorant. That’s what I was saying. There are inevitably Protestants who know the truth of Catholicism yet still reject it. Not all Protestants are hopelessly ignorant of the truth of Catholicism.

I agree that this is all very paradoxical.
 
40.png
Warrenton:
It would be better to leave the Protestant where he is, because he can be saved just fine according to Sirach. If we convert him, we put him in danger of damnation if he switches back on us. He is acatually safer, and more assured of salvation, by staying Protestant.
Geesh, Warrenton, I did not say that at all. You keep asking why be converted, and I explained that they only have a bottle of mosquito spray (bare bones) to strengthen them against evil. If they become Catholic and partake of the sacraments, they are more capable of avoiding sin.

You give very little credence to the Holy Spirit who indwells them. If He is guiding them by His grace, even though it may be more difficult due to not receiving the sacraments, they are beloved in God’s eyes. That’s why the prayer is so offensive to call them heretics. I’m glad the Church changed the prayer. And to answer your other question, the prayers of the liturgy had been in a time capsule for centuries until the window of V-II caused the Church to review this entire matter of baptized nonCatholics.

In the end, God will judge Catholics and non-Catholics alike according to their deeds. Baptism doesn’t save either of us exclusively unless we walk the walk.

As it stands, since they are baptized, they belong to the Mystical Body, as does every baptized Catholic - including those who separate themselves by mortal sin. This is hidden from us and known only to God what the state of soul anyone is in before His Omniscient presence.
 
Warrenton, here’s a question for you.

If you had not been to the church or the sacraments in several years, how would you classify your admittance to a hospital when they ask what your faith is?

Heretic? Due to voluntarily separating yourself from communion with the Church?

Or Catholic, because that is what you are by your baptism?

This happened to me when I was facing major surgery. Because I identified myself as a Catholic, although a lapsed one, God’s wonderful grace brought a priest to my bedside the evening before the surgery and asked if I would like to go to confession. Of course I went, and what a joy!

But if I put heretic on the admitting form, what then?

Protestants who are baptized are not heretics, though they may be adhering to heretical beliefs.
 
I’m reading this thread and thinking how it’s all over the map. It’s because everyone is talking like a layman, not like a theologian or a prelate.

What the lay Catholic understands by terms such as heretic, Protestant, and ignorance and what the theologian, prelates and popes understand are not the same. The two groups are talking past each other.

To the Church hierarchy a heretic is one who abandons truth to embrace errors and is stubborn about it, etc.

Therefore, the Church looks at Protestants in the 21st century as a very different reality from their ancestors who were former Catholics. Pope Benedict recently made it very clear that the Protestant who is born into Protestantism is a person of faith. He believes what he knows, because of faith, not because he’s in rebellion. He believes what he believes about the Catholic Church and her teachings, because of faith. From his point of view, what we believe and do are contrary to the Christian faith. Therefore, he’s acting in good conscience. He’s not being obstinate in embracing error. He’s being obstinate in embracing what he believes to be true and rejecting what he believes to be false. He’s trying to do what he believes is the will of God. Therefore, the term heretic does not apply.

Protestant is not understood by the Church’s hierarchy, even by the Pope as it’s understood by the laity.

Again Popes Benedict and John Paul II explained that the Church’s hierarchy sees Protestantism as a phenomenon, not as a rebellion. The rebellion is over. The term Protestant is simply a name that stuck to the descendants of the rebels. Both popes said that Protestantism is a phenomenon with which the Catholic Church has to learn to live live, work and dialogue.

Ignorance for the hierarchy and the theologian has nothing to do with what you know the Church believes.

The Church holds that just because you know that the Church believes X and it claims that X is truth, does not mean that it is.

Pope Benedict made it clear in his trip to NY that in the dialogue between Catholics and non-Catholics, faith has to inform reason. You cannot separate them. Reason tells a Protestant that the Catholic Church believes X. However, his faith tells him that X is wrong. Therefore, he cannot reasonably embrace X. As long as his faith tells him that X is wrong, then he truly does not know the truth.

Hearing is not enough. One has to believe. Belief is a gift of faith. Bl. John Henry Newman, St. Maximilian Kolbe, Bl. John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI all wrote about the development of Christian Doctrine. As time passes, Christians doctrine looks back on itself. He restates what has been said in the past. It clarifies and organizes what has been stated.

As that happens, men and women who are in search of truth, if they are exposed to the development of Christian doctrine, will gradually come to the faith and it informs their reason. However, as long as there is a conflict between faith and reason, people cannot move. As. St. Maximilian wrote, they should not move. He based himself on the writings of Augustine who taught that one should never act while in doubt. Just as you can move toward truth, there is also the risk of moving further into error.

It is better to proceed slowly and cautiously to the degree that your faith informs your reason or better said, to the degree that you believe is reasonable without compromising your soul. All of these great theologians and scholars would tell you that turning on EWTN and hearing all about Catholicism does not constitute knowledge. And they will tell you that invincible ignorance is when reason and faith are in juxtaposition. The person is caught in a situation and he has to remain put until he can reconcile reason and faith. As Pope Benedict has written, one cannot force either faith or reason. One has to nurture both.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:
 
Warrenton, here’s a question for you.

If you had not been to the church or the sacraments in several years, how would you classify your admittance to a hospital when they ask what your faith is?

Heretic? Due to voluntarily separating yourself from communion with the Church?

Or Catholic, because that is what you are by your baptism?

This happened to me when I was facing major surgery. Because I identified myself as a Catholic, although a lapsed one, God’s wonderful grace brought a priest to my bedside the evening before the surgery and asked if I would like to go to confession. Of course I went, and what a joy!

But if I put heretic on the admitting form, what then?

Protestants who are baptized are not heretics, though they may be adhering to heretical beliefs.
Well, it’s actually quite possible that Protestants are heretics. Some are, some aren’t, for reasons I’ve already extrapolated upon.

To say that all Protestants automatically aren’t heretics “because they don’t know the truth” is a bit ridiculous, frankly, just as ridiculous as the absolute opposite of that.
 
Why are we having such a stumbling block over this?

Baptized Protestants who live their Christian lives in the fullest accordance with their conscience are not heretics. Only those who willingly and knowingly reject the faith when they know it to be the true faith are heretics. Keyword: “know”
40.png
YoungTradCath:
To say that all Protestants automatically aren’t heretics “because they don’t know the truth” is a bit ridiculous.
No, I won’t say that. The Church already has. Read LG and UR and the CCC.
 
Why are we having such a stumbling block over this?

Baptized Protestants who live their Christian lives in the fullest accordance with their conscience are not heretics. Only those who willingly and knowingly reject the faith when they know it to be the true faith are heretics. Keyword: “know”

No, I won’t say that. The Church already has. Read LG and UR and the CCC.
We agree!

Not all Protestants are hopelessly ignorant of the Catholic truth! The Church hasn’t said that. She has said that that possibility exists, just as the possibility exists that some aren’t.

A person who does know the Catholic truth and who, nevertheless, decides to foolishly be a Protestant instead, is a heretic. There isn’t any getting around that. Otherwise, the Church would say, “It doesn’t matter what you believe, everyone goes to heaven!” On that we both agree!

It is imperative to understand and accept both possibilities for Protestants.

I understand and accept that not all of them are heretics, and quite usually it is not their fault that they do not know the Catholic truth. But there are, quite likely, some who do know the Catholic truth yet still Protest it, which is heresy!

Notice I didn’t posit numbers. I just acknowledged the two very real sides of the story.
 
Once again, the issue, as Br. JR pointed out, is language.

Here are some quotes from well respected men from very well before the Protestant rebellion:
“Heretics bring sentence upon themselves since they by their own choice withdraw from the Church, a withdrawal which, since they are aware of it, constitutes damnation. Between heresy and schism there is this difference: that heresy involves perverse doctrine, while schism separates one from the Church on account of disagreement with the bishop. Nevertheless, there is no schism which does not trump up a heresy to justify its departure from the Church” (Commentary on Titus 3:10–11 [A.D. 386]).
  • St. Jerome
but then we read St. Augustine:
“The apostle Paul said, ‘As for a man that is a heretic, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him’ [Titus 3:10]. **But those who maintain their own opinion, however false and perverted, without obstinate ill will, especially those who have not originated the error of bold presumption, but have received it from parents who had been led astray and had lapsed . . . those who seek the truth with careful industry and are ready to be corrected when they have found it, are not to be rated among heretics” **(Letters 43:1 [A.D. 412]).
It seems that everyone is saying the same thing.

So, Protestantism in itself is still heresy. But, Protestants are not necessarily heretics.

Warrenton’s position on letting them alone lest they accept, reject, and are truly damned actually has merit among Protestant apologists:

youtube.com/watch?v=pTVgOrxwcMk

The semantics need to be dropped as does the flowery language. It allows rejection of the Faith. It appeals to rebellious natures. It, in its worst permutation, reinvigorates the same rebellion which DID damn the original heretics.

Otherwise, we might as just well not tell anyone anything about the Church or the Gospel. This is where Warrenton’s concern comes in, I believe (and I remain standing for a correction). In reality, he is, to me, trying to rectify the best way to help do his best to spread the Gospel.

Super-Happy-Fun language doesn’t help that. Truth still remains and must be accepted. Ignorance, true ignorance, is the only excuse. Most Protestants are not truly ignorant, but willfully so. That’s the rub.
 
So, I shall redeposit Warrenton’s question. What is the point in trying to convert and spread the Gospel and the truth that only the Catholic Church possesses? This is a theological psychobabble tangle.
 
Warrenton’s position on letting them alone lest they accept, reject, and are truly damned actually has merit among Protestant apologists:
:eek: I’m glad the Church doesn’t teach that. Taking to heart JR’s post about the necessity of faith informing reason suggests to me that if rejection occurred after conversion, then reason may not have been fully informed. This is the area of soul that only God knows, and we cannot judge.

It’s hard to accept that converted Protestants leave Catholicism in droves afterwards. Marcus Grodi’s program Journey Home has hosted many converts who are in many cases better Catholics than cradle-borns.

More likely too, is that if one does not guard their faith and routinely logs on to heretical internet websites, even a Catholic can reject the true faith. Heresy is subtle, evil, and is the very reason we look to the Church to shepherd Christ’s flock with truth. This is the greatest blessing Jesus gave us in His promise to remain with us always through the infallible teaching Church he founded.
 
:eek: I’m glad the Church doesn’t teach that. Taking to heart JR’s post about the necessity of faith informing reason suggests to me that if rejection occurred after conversion, then reason may not have been fully informed. This is the area of soul that only God knows, and we cannot judge.

It’s hard to accept that converted Protestants leave Catholicism in droves afterwards. Marcus Grodi’s program Journey Home has hosted many converts who are in many cases better Catholics than cradle-borns.

More likely too, is that if one does not guard their faith by logging on to heretical internet websites, even a Catholic can reject the true faith. Heresy is subtle, evil, and is the very reason we look to the Church to shepherd Christ’s flock with truth.
I’m not positing that Warrenton maintains that position, but rather that’s what he seems to be perceiving as the best way to keep these people in the position for Heaven based on the way these things are worded. I’ll let him speak for himself to clarify, as I stated prior.

I agree that Protestants who accept the Catholic faith are unlikely to go away from it. There is the danger, but, likely more through poor catechesis or attacks on the Church which the convert is unprepared to deal with. Spiritually I went from wearing some leather and having a rusty sword to putting on some really cool armor with a shiny sword upon my acceptance of this great history and the faith and Church it defends. I have no desire to go back to being a mere hireling with shoddy gear.

I completely agree with your last paragraph and think it sums up quite nicely what the issue is- guarding of one’s Faith, even against seemingly domestic threats. The internet has both opened the flood gates of attacks and false information as much as it has opened the gates to worldwide understanding of the Faith.
 
We really don’t know if they know. I am not professing to have that information. However, I will not accept in a discussion that all Protestants are going to be “saved” out of hopeless ignorance of the truth. We have to, for the sake of argument, accept that there are two possibilities for every Protestant:
  1. Hopeless ignorance, in which case the Protestant goes to heaven, or Purgatory then heaven.
  2. Knowledge of the truth, in which case the Protestant is condemned to hell.
I don’t have numbers, nor will I ever, and I don’t have names, nor will I ever, of the Protestants in either category. But we have to accept that both possibilities for every Protestant are very real.

I am leaving the determination to which Protestants are in either category to God. I’m just being the devil’s advocate here, absolutely no pun intended, to say that both possibilities exist and we have to accept both possibilities.

There very well could end up all Protestants going to hell, or all Protestants going to heaven, or an even split, or a disproportionate split. I don’t know, and no one knows, except God. But we have to accept both possibilities, 1 and 2.

And Protestantism itself is still a heresy whether the individual is a heretic or not.
I can agree with the above.
 
To say that all Protestants automatically aren’t heretics “because they don’t know the truth” is a bit ridiculous, frankly, just as ridiculous as the absolute opposite of that.
I dare you to tell that to Pope Benedict XVI to his face, after what he recently said in defense of Protestants, defending them from the Catholic laity who attacks them. Trust me, you don’t want to be the target of the “Ratzinger Look”. Those who were his students once upon a time know why he was call Rottweiler. He had no tolerance for those who could not match his intelligence. If you were going to disagree with him, you were free to do so, but you had to defeat him first. I remember a Salesian telling the story of the time that he said the Professor Ratzinger, "But Pope Pius V said . . . " And the Cardinal responded, “Tell me something that Pope Pius said that I don’t know or don’t understand as well as you do.” He said that he wished the floor would swallow him up. No thanks. I’m not for a contest of wits against minds like John Paul II and Benedict XVI. When they make statements, they are very well grounded in Tradition, philosophy and law.
Once again, the issue, as Br. JR pointed out, is language.

Super-Happy-Fun language doesn’t help that. Truth still remains and must be accepted. Ignorance, true ignorance, is the only excuse.
Truth does not change, but what Popes John Paul and Benedict are doing is borrowing from two of the greatest thinkers on this subject, Maximilian Kolbe and John Henry Newman. There is a development of Christian doctrine and those who do not understand it are not culpable for not embracing it. The question is not about truth. It’s about culpability. Culpability is proportionate to understanding the the degree to which one rejects what one truly understands.
Most Protestants are not truly ignorant, but willfully so. That’s the rub.
On the contrary, most are truly ignorant, because they do not understand. That was what John Henry Newman and Maximilian Kolbe explained. The Church agrees with them and has adopted their position as the formal position of the Catholic Church and teaches it as such in LG, GS, CCC and Ut Unum Sint. Ut Unum Sint may as well have been written by Newman.

Newman is very reliable, not only because he was a scholar, but also because he was a Protestant. He knew the difference between knowing what the Catholic Church taught and being able to wrap your head around it, in good faith.

Newman took his argument from Augustine. No one should act on a doubtful conscience, not even a Protestant. It took him a long trip around the Fathers of the Church to come for faith and reason to come to terms with Catholic teaching and then make the leap into Catholicism.

There is a Passionist confessor, who is not very famous, but who received Newman into the Church. He would later write that the road from Protestantism to Catholicism is not an easy one. He used Newman as the example. He found that because Newman was truly a man of faith, not just a cultural Protestant, he could not make the transition from Protestantism to Catholicism without the reconciliation between faith and reason.

Reason was telling him that the Catholic Church had preserved the faith of the Fathers. His faith was telling him not to trust his reason. This Passionist, knowing the struggle that Newman was going through decided to help his faith. He worked very hard persuade Newman’s faith that the transition was the Will of God. Newman later wrote about this and more in his Apologia. Which everyone should read before they talk about Protestantism and heresy. It sheds a great deal of light on the subject.

Therein lies the problem. If the Protestant truly believes that the moving from there to here is contrary to the will of God, then his position is invincible and there is no culpability. He remains in error through no fault of his own. Remember what I said, what the layman calls invincible and what the theologian and the hierarchy call invincible are not the same thing. We don’t speak the same language in the Catholic Church. The average layman defines his terms using Webster. The Church uses the dictionary of theology and philosophy. They don’t always agree with Webster.*

Everyone has to wait. When the Holy Spirit stirs him to search, he will be ready to find. At the point that he finds that it is not contrary to God’s will that he move and that it’s even more beneficial for him and others, then he has a moral duty to do so. At that point, if he chooses to remain because it will upset his grandma’ then he’s morally culpable. But first he has to reach that point where faith and reason are in harmony.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:
  • For anyone who is interested and can spend about $150.00, a dictionary of theology and a dictionary of philosophy are very good investments. 👍
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top