What Archbishop Bugnini Really Said - The Article that Proves It

[jonbhorton]

Again, it goes back to language.

You just took a whole lot of time to write what we are all saying in essence.

The problem with ecumenical efforts and the way the language is presented is it seems to contradict with “tradition” when in reality, we can see the same thing presented by St. Augustine in the prior quote. The only difference is the language. There is no contradiction with tradition when you look at the bare bones of it.

I agree that knowing 10x10 = 100 doesn’t make one a Mathematician. But, learning the multiplication table and then insisting that 10x10=99, well… good luck.

Now, do most Protestants believe 10 x 10= 99? Yes.

Are most Protestants presented with a multiplication table and the instruction on understanding it? If they so choose.

If they understand the Church teaches 10 x 10 = 100, and refuse to say it or follow it, good luck to them on passing the SAT, much less understanding spiritual algebra.

However, I must admit, I’m retarded at math and take the Church’s word on much, in faith.

No matter what way ya slice it though, 10 x 10 ≠ 99

 

[MarkThompson]

So, I shall redeposit Warrenton’s question. What is the point in trying to convert and spread the Gospel and the truth that only the Catholic Church possesses? This is a theological psychobabble tangle.

Because God is best honored and worshiped according to the Catholic faith. Your focus should not be on the salvation of the individual, but on what is due to God. Or, to put it differently, “Ask not what holding the Catholic faith can do for you, ask what your holding the Catholic faith can do for God.”

 

[JReducation]

Again, it goes back to language.

You just took a whole lot of time to write what we are all saying in essence.

The problem with ecumenical efforts and the way the language is presented is it seems to contradict with “tradition” when in reality, we can see the same thing presented by St. Augustine in the prior quote. The only difference is the language. There is no contradiction with tradition when you look at the bare bones of it.

I agree that knowing 10x10 = 100 doesn’t make one a Mathematician. But, learning the multiplication table and then insisting that 10x10=99, well… good luck.

Now, do most Protestants believe 10 x 10= 99? Yes.

Are most Protestants presented with a multiplication table and the instruction on understanding it? If they so choose.

If they understand the Church teaches 10 x 10 = 100, and refuse to say it or follow it, good luck to them on passing the SAT, much less understanding spiritual algebra.

However, I must admit, I’m retarded at math and take the Church’s word on much, in faith.

No matter what way ya slice it though, 10 x 10 ≠ 99

The argument that St. Maximilian Kolbe presented was in the form of a question. To be fair, he was not dealing with Protestants. He was trying to convert Catholics to Christianity, as Franciscans say. It’s the same idea.

St. Maximilian always put it this way. The man of faith, even if he’s in error will always ask the honest question, why should he believe the Catholic Church when she says X?

St. Max always pointed to something that Francis and Bonaventure said. It’s not good enough to say, “Because the Church says so.” That’s only good for a real Catholic who has faith in the Church and truly believes that the Holy Spirit works and speaks through the Church, not for the person who doubts this. The first proof has to be that the Holy Spirit does speak through the Church.

Applying this to a Protestant, just because the Church says 10 x 10 = 100 is not good enough. It must be proven that the Church is right. When that happens, then his faith will enlighten his reason.

It’s like getting to a place where you say, “Well since this is right and it’s God’s will that I follow what is right, then I have to do what I have to do.”

At that point, if you choose not to do what you know that you must do, then you are no longer ignorant.

But we must never assume that the non-Catholic or the Catholic who has yet to become a Christian, can accept on faith that the Church teaches truth. If he’s truly an honest person, he will require proof, not just information.

I like you math example, because it helps.

This is an aside of mine, but it’s my one wish in life . . . ok, one of many. I wish that we would stick to the thought processes of the great theologians and use language the way they used it and the way they meant it. It would make life much easier. I know that many Catholics know the language of men like Newman, Kolbe, John Paul II, Lawrence of Brindisi, Augustine, Robert, Teresa, Therese, Bernard and others. Why they don’t use it baffles me.

These folks were so crystal clear. When they were not so clear, the next one came behind him and clarified or developed the thought even further, making it clearer. I believe that if Catholics were converted to this type of rhetoric, it could be easier to teach the faith to non-Catholics and to Catholics who still have a ways to go before they can be called Christian.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

 

[YoungTradCath]

I dare you to tell that to Pope Benedict XVI to his face, after what he recently said in defense of Protestants, defending them from the Catholic laity who attacks them. Trust me, you don’t want to be the target of the “Ratzinger Look”. Those who were his students once upon a time know why he was call Rottweiler. He had no tolerance for those who could not match his intelligence. If you were going to disagree with him, you were free to do so, but you had to defeat him first. I remember a Salesian telling the story of the time that he said the Professor Ratzinger, "But Pope Pius V said . . . " And the Cardinal responded, “Tell me something that Pope Pius said that I don’t know or don’t understand as well as you do.” He said that he wished the floor would swallow him up. No thanks. I’m not for a contest of wits against minds like John Paul II and Benedict XVI. When they make statements, they are very well grounded in Tradition, philosophy and law.

That’s not what I’m saying, Br. I know that Protestants who are genuinely, hopelessly, invincibly ignorant of Catholicism are not culpable. I said that.

What I meant in what you quoted is that not all Protestants automatically aren’t heretics. Even if one is out there, my statement still stands. Of course there are Protestants who aren’t heretics.

Ugh, words.

 

[pnewton]

So, I shall redeposit Warrenton’s question. What is the point in trying to convert and spread the Gospel and the truth that only the Catholic Church possesses? This is a theological psychobabble tangle.

First it is our mission. Obedience is better than sacrifice. We evangelize, because God commands it.

Second, just because one can have salvation without an understand of Catholicism, the Sacraments and dogma, does not mean that one has the same chance of obtaining salvation without these sure means of God’s grace. God may not be limited by the Sacraments, but we know that the Grace of God is found there.

 

[JReducation]

That’s not what I’m saying, Br. I know that Protestants who are genuinely, hopelessly, invincibly ignorant of Catholicism are not culpable. I said that.

What I meant in what you quoted is that not all Protestants automatically aren’t heretics. Even if one is out there, my statement still stands. Of course there are Protestants who aren’t heretics.

Ugh, words.

LOL

I still think that you’re misunderstanding what Pope Benedict and popes before him are saying.

If you are born a Protestant, it is impossible for you to be a heretic.

Why?

The term heretic is a canonical term for a very specific act by a Catholic.

Protestants are not Catholics. Therefore, nothing in Canon Law applies to them. Canon Law is written for Catholics. Even terms such as “heretic, apostate, and schismatic” do not apply to those who are born outside of the Catholic Church, because the Church never intended to apply these laws and these labels to them.

In other words, it is not the intention of the Catholic Church to call Protestants heretics. Her intention is to call heretic any Catholic who knowingly and obstinately embraces heressy.

Calling Protestants heretics is a mistake by a few people who don’t know Canon Law or want to rewrite it to suit them. Don’t let yourself get sucked up into that movement. Steer clear of anyone who wants to rewrite Canon Law. They’re going to get you in trouble.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

 

[YoungTradCath]

LOL

I still think that you’re misunderstanding what Pope Benedict and popes before him are saying.

If you are born a Protestant, it is impossible for you to be a heretic.

Why?

The term heretic is a canonical term for a very specific act by a Catholic.

Protestants are not Catholics. Therefore, nothing in Canon Law applies to them. Canon Law is written for Catholics. Even terms such as “heretic, apostate, and schismatic” do not apply to those who are born outside of the Catholic Church, because the Church never intended to apply these laws and these labels to them.

In other words, it is not the intention of the Catholic Church to call Protestants heretics. Her intention is to call heretic any Catholic who knowingly and obstinately embraces heressy.

Calling Protestants heretics is a mistake by a few people who don’t know Canon Law or want to rewrite it to suit them. Don’t let yourself get sucked up into that movement. Steer clear of anyone who wants to rewrite Canon Law. They’re going to get you in trouble.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

But then the question arises: are all Protestants necessarily born outside the Catholic Church?

That is, are all Protestants born Protestants?

 

[ProVobis]

The problem with ecumenical efforts and the way the language is presented is it seems to contradict with “tradition” when in reality, we can see the same thing presented by St. Augustine in the prior quote. The only difference is the language. There is no contradiction with tradition when you look at the bare bones of it.

I would agree with that. Even before Vatican II ecumenism was manifested. I have a London notebook from 1955 showing Catholics and Christians as “brothers” under the Holy Ghost.

 

[JReducation]

I think that part of the problem here are the converts from Protestantism to Catholicism. I’ve noticed that many converts from Protestantism lack an appreciation for the Protestant roots and for what they received from their Protestant heritage. They come into Catholicism and become anti-Protestant. The only thing worse than an ex-Protestant is an ex-Catholic. There seems to be an anger toward their own people and their heritage and they go at Protestantism almost with a vengeance. So . . . they feel this need to label Protestants.

I belong to many associations of Hebrew Catholics and the experience is just the opposite. The Catholics that come from Judaism are proud of their Jewish heritage and they continue to observe much of what they lived as Jews, because it’s not contrary to the faith. As Roslind Moss, now Mother Miriam, recently said, “The good thing about being a convert from Judaism is that you realize that there is nothing in Catholicism that is not Jewish.”

Hebrew Catholics do not refer to their Jewish brothers and sisters with derrogatory labels. On the contrary, if you want to have your face rearranged, go ahead and make a negative comment about Jews in front of a Hebrew Catholic. You had better run after you do so. There is a strong sense of gratitude for what Judaism gave them that led them to Catholicism.

Pope John Paul once said that converts from Protestantism should also feel a sense of pride and gratitude for very specific things that were part of the Protestant faith experience: Sacred Scripture, prayer, community, morality, work ethic, strong family values, desire to serve God, faith in the Risen Lord and much more.

I have only met four Protestants in my life. They were the kindest and most honorable people I’ve ever met. I’m sure that not all are so nice. But the only four whom I have met were kind and honest God-loving people. I have met many converts to Catholicism from Protestantism, they are the most angry people whom I have met. They are like and ex-wife. If it reminds them of the ex-spouse they want to burn it. LOL

I almost want to say, “Slow down. What you just left behind was a Christian community, not hell itself.” So many converts bring with them great zeal for the Catholic faith, but also a shortage of love. In that shortage, they sin against their Protestant brothers and sisters with the labeling and constant fault finding.

It’s not say that they don’t have faults. However, fault finding can be fault as well, said St. Augustine. There is a line that you can cross and when you’re going overboard. We have to watch ourselves. We can’t be blind to faults; but we can’t be zealots either. Extremes are never good.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

 

[JReducation]

But then the question arises: are all Protestants necessarily born outside the Catholic Church?

That is, are all Protestants born Protestants?

That’s kind of a goofy question, don’t you think?

Some Protestants are former Catholics. These would be heretics according to Canon Law.

Some Protestants are former Jews. These are also heretics, according to Jewish Law.

Some Protestants are former Muslims. There are also heretics, according to Islamic Law.

Some Protestants are former atheists. These are just getting better.

The majority of Protestants are born into this faith tradition. That’s what Pope Benedict is saying. This is their faith and he said that this is a genuine life of faith, even if it does not posses the fullness of truth. Those born outside of the Catholic Church cannot be labeled using Catholic labels. The Church has no jurisdiction over them or claim on their fidelity to the Church, nor does she want to have jurisdiction over them or demand their fidelity. The Catholic Church is very practical. She’s not into micromanaging people, not even her own, never mind someone outside.

We shouldn’t want to micromanage or label them either. Take the good example of our leadership. We invite. We do not bully or harass.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Br. Jay,
We are truly blessed that you are a member of CAF!!

 

[JReducation]

I, on the other hand, have seriously thought of giving up on CAF. I keep asking myself, “Why are people saying such things?” Some things that people say are outright mean.

I often ask myself, “Do I have the patience?”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

 

[pnewton]

I often ask myself, “Do I have the patience?”

Irrelevant. You have light. That is what matters. There has been so many times that your soft light has toned down the dark emotions here. If you leave, may God bless you on your way. If you stay, I will pray that God will bless you with more patience than you thought you had.

It is in our nature, as a Church, that a broad spectrum of humanity is encompassed under the name “Catholic”. All too often, those on the outer edges of the spectrum, strive too hard to bring others to their opinions. It is good to have calm people here, like a control rod in a heating fission plant, to lower the level of nuclear interaction.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

I second this!!! :tiphat:

Please don’t go Br. Jay, WE NEED YOU!!!

Irrelevant. You have light. That is what matters. There has been so many times that your soft light has toned down the dark emotions here. If you leave, may God bless you on your way. If you stay, I will pray that God will bless you with more patience than you thought you had.

It is in our nature, as a Church, that a broad spectrum of humanity is encompassed under the name “Catholic”. All too often, those on the outer edges of the spectrum, strive too hard to bring others to their opinions. It is good to have calm people here, like a control rod in a heating fission plant, to lower the level of nuclear interaction.

 

[JReducation]

Irrelevant. You have light. That is what matters. There has been so many times that your soft light has toned down the dark emotions here. If you leave, may God bless you on your way. If you stay, I will pray that God will bless you with more patience than you thought you had.

It is in our nature, as a Church, that a broad spectrum of humanity is encompassed under the name “Catholic”. All too often, those on the outer edges of the spectrum, strive too hard to bring others to their opinions. It is good to have calm people here, like a control rod in a heating fission plant, to lower the level of nuclear interaction.

Gee and I thought HS Physics was hard.

Thanks.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

 

[AndyP2010]

I, on the other hand, have seriously thought of giving up on CAF. I keep asking myself, “Why are people saying such things?” Some things that people say are outright mean.

I often ask myself, “Do I have the patience?”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

Br Jay

If you feel lacking in patience it is because you so often deal out a heaping portion with every post. Along with a goodly dose of humility, obedience, poverty and chastity. I appreciate all of these the more because of you. If you post not one more word let me say Thanks.

YBIC
Andy

 

[Marie5890]

Br Jay

If you feel lacking in patience it is because you so often deal out a heaping portion with every post. Along with a goodly dose of humility, obedience, poverty and chastity. I appreciate all of these the more because of you. If you post not one more word let me say Thanks.

YBIC
Andy

Ditto here too, Bro Jay.

I cant tell you how many times you have posted information that has unruffled my own feathers.
That meanness and lack of Christian charity that is often seems to rear it’s head on CAF gets the better of me sometimes and I wonder how can I ever help fallen away Catholics or non-Catholics to see the beauty of being a disciple when such meanness can spread like a cancer.

Then, never fail, you post something of from the spiritual masters (I think that is what you call them) or the ECF, or our Holy Father, JP11, Mother Teresa, St Max Kolbe, (I could go on and on) that is the very answer to counter that meanness.

I have no doubt when I say that for all the nastiness that shows up on CAF from time to time, there are people like me who are quietly reading your posts as you point out a more Christian way, a more just way, a more charitable way.

We may not speak up as often, but we do drink from the cup of charity you are sharing with those of us who are listening…And we ARE listening.

Thank you, and God Bless.

 

[Indyann]

Irrelevant. You have light. That is what matters. There has been so many times that your soft light has toned down the dark emotions here. If you leave, may God bless you on your way. If you stay, I will pray that God will bless you with more patience than you thought you had.

It is in our nature, as a Church, that a broad spectrum of humanity is encompassed under the name “Catholic”. All too often, those on the outer edges of the spectrum, strive too hard to bring others to their opinions. It is good to have calm people here, like a control rod in a heating fission plant, to lower the level of nuclear interaction.

Very well said. And you pnewton often act as the control rod as well!

 

[TrueLight]

I think that part of the problem here are the converts from Protestantism to Catholicism. I’ve noticed that many converts from Protestantism lack an appreciation for the Protestant roots and for what they received from their Protestant heritage. They come into Catholicism and become anti-Protestant. The only thing worse than an ex-Protestant is an ex-Catholic. There seems to be an anger toward their own people and their heritage and they go at Protestantism almost with a vengeance. So . . . they feel this need to label Protestants.

You’re so right about this. I just don’t get it.

I don’t see how one could have been a devout Protestant and not be thankful for anything.

Where did you first learn about God?
Where did you learn how to pray the Our Father?
Where did you learn that you could call out to God in your distress and know he would hear you?

I am thankful for my Protestant heritage. That’s where I learned how to love my Lord.

And he in his mercy, chose to take the blinders off my eyes and lead me to the true faith.

 

[jonbhorton]

Br. JR,

First, please, suffer us idiots and stay. You’re a teacher. You have a standing and reputation, it seems, of being one who most or all will listen to. That being said, I’m not just going to take your word for everything. Nor would I expect a student, however wrong or right, to just take some Cardinal’s word for something based on previous knowledge of a Pope’s words.

As smart as Pope Benedict XVI is, his teaching career as Joseph Ratzinger of various clerical titles, was not ex cathedra nor infallible. “Because I said so and I’m smarter” is not exactly a great method of teaching material which will at some point necessitate understanding and defense. That’s, frankly, the exact opposite of education- assuming he didn’t then correct the student’s understanding of what Pope Pius V meant in context or relation to other pertinent doctrine. That his prior scholarship is often mashed up with his acts as current Pope really hurts understanding more than helps. What is being attacked is not Protestants, which is agreeably stupid and not good. What is being attacked is Protestantism, which is…heretical doctrine. That someone’s feelings are hurt defending that doctrine when confronted with the full doctrine, so what? Let their feelings be hurt. Their feelings are often the basis of their faith. It feels good, and makes them feel good, so it’s good? Not always.

But what is the Protestant understanding of the CCC and the changes regarding their place in the Church? That their version is good enough and the Catholics just have extra stuff to worry about. The only ones who will come to the RCC will do so after researching for themselves, if they are willing to admit the truth. Yes, mere knowledge is not the end all be all, even the Devil knows scripture. But, once having known and rejecting, or being ignorant and learning but rejecting… well, that’s a horse of a different color. Ignorance is no longer an excuse at that point. It’s just outright rejection.

You touched on something which I definitely have been struggling with… which is being a Protestant who came home to the Catholic Church, and appearing anti-Protestants. In fact, I’m anti-Protestantism. Not Protestants. But, if the Protestants learn the truth of Catholic doctrine and then reject it, I can’t see these people as good to go.

If they reject it, but don’t know what they are rejecting, as I used to, I totally think that’s an area which falls back into what St. Augustine was saying in the bold portion of the quote I shared earlier.

But I would like to remind you that while you have only met 4 Protestants in your life, we former-Protestants have met many, and were able to be labeled as such ourselves. The ideas of some formidable Protestant theologian, obscure to many, have basically no weight over all. In academia and religious think-tanks, yes. But there is no organization to bind these people. It’s not like the RCC where one can say Ah! Saint So-and-so and attempt to draw a distinction on what an overall picture of the concept is regarding the Catholic Church. There is no Protestant Church entity. It’s like Al-qaeda or a field of ant hills. There is no definable major player in it. If anything, it is a great tool of Satan because it is no more stable than the next gust of personal ideas and the-Spirit-told-me’s that comes along.