What Archbishop Bugnini Really Said - The Article that Proves It

[Sirach2]

Marie, we find an example of this in Acts 10 with Cornelius. He was God-fearing, righteous, and very pleasing to God, although a gentile. God blessed him for his faithfulness by sending St. Peter to him to baptize him and bring he and his household into the faith.

It is so true that those outside our faith who strive to follow God in earnest will often be led by Him to the faith. I have noted that some of these people become very zealous and devoted Catholics, more so than one who is blessed to have been born into it.

You are loved!!!

 

[Marie5890]

Marie, we find an example of this in Acts 10 with Cornelius. He was God-fearing, righteous, and very pleasing to God, although a gentile. God blessed him for his faithfulness by sending St. Peter to him to baptize him and bring he and his household into the faith.

It is so true that those outside our faith who strive to follow God in earnest will often be led by Him to the faith. I have noted that some of these people become very zealous and devoted Catholics, more so than one who is blessed to have been born into it.

You are loved!!!

Thank you Sirach!

My own experience has taught me that sincerity and earnest means a great deal to Our Lord when it comes to discipleship.

I have come across those who are staunch Catholics but seem to struggle with discipleship. Im not sure how to respond or to react, in all honesty.

Sorta like those Pharisees and others who loudly proclaim “BUT WE HAVE ABRAHAM AS OUR FATHER!!”

And the Lord goes, in a sense “So what?”

Never really have really be able to reconcile that ego-filled attitude.

 

[Irish_Polock]

Thank you Sirach!

My own experience has taught me that sincerity and earnest means a great deal to Our Lord when it comes to discipleship.

I have come across those who are staunch Catholics but seem to struggle with discipleship. Im not sure how to respond or to react, in all honesty.

Sorta like those Pharisees and others who loudly proclaim “BUT WE HAVE ABRAHAM AS OUR FATHER!!”

And the Lord goes, in a sense “So what?”

Never really have really be able to reconcile that ego-filled attitude.

How would you describe someone who is a “Disciple of our Lord”, and, how does your description of said disciple differ from your view of a devout Catholic?

 

[TrueLight]

Thank you Sirach!

My own experience has taught me that sincerity and earnest means a great deal to Our Lord when it comes to discipleship.

I have come across those who are staunch Catholics but seem to struggle with discipleship. Im not sure how to respond or to react, in all honesty.

Sorta like those Pharisees and others who loudly proclaim “BUT WE HAVE ABRAHAM AS OUR FATHER!!”

And the Lord goes, in a sense “So what?”

Never really have really be able to reconcile that ego-filled attitude.

Hi Marie,

What does “embracing all universality” (noted in your affiliation) mean? Does it have to do with what you just posted?

 

[Marie5890]

How would you describe someone who is a “Disciple of our Lord”, and, how does your description of said disciple differ from your view of a devout Catholic?

Disciple of Our Lord is based on love and devotion to Him regardless of how clearly we understand His nature.

I know many people who love HIm dearly and authentically, even if their understanding of Him is disordered.

The love is as pure and earnest as the purist of water flowing in a mountain stream.

 

[Marie5890]

Hi Marie,

What does “embracing all universality” (noted in your affiliation) mean? Does it have to do with what you just posted?

Hi Truelight!

I mean that in it’s all embracing meaning. None of us can truly know God in His all embracing universality. He is, in the end, after all a complete mystery.

I look at the Orthodox church and see pure and complete devotion to Him. It’s authentic and true. And so many others.

I have full and complete confidence and trust in God’s mercy. He knows those who are earnest in their devotion and striving for discipleship with Him.

Their devotion to Him is no less incomplete and misunderstood as ours is.

God in His fullness, is mystery. We do our best to be part of and understand that. He, in His love and Mercy, accepts what we are capable of giving Him.

That is what I mean.

In so many ways, Bro.Jay has been able to articulate what it means to be a Christian, even beyond by the basic understanding of Catholicism. I think it’s because he understands what St Francis and St Clare were trying to teach in what it means to be truly, fully and wholely, Christ-like.

I think many Catholics seem to let it slip thru their fingers and understanding what it means to be truely, fully, wholey, Christ-like.

I think it’s why St Francis was blest to be the first Stigmatist’s.

He was given that profound mark,sign and blessing for a reason.

He shows what it means to be a disciple of Christ. JMO

 

[Irish_Polock]

Disciple of Our Lord is based on love and devotion to Him regardless of how clearly we understand His nature.

I know many people who love HIm dearly and authentically, even if their understanding of Him is disordered.

The love is as pure and earnest as the purist of water flowing in a mountain stream.

And… is it your opinion that “devout” and “staunch” Catholics lack this love and devotion? What are the qualifiers to be a “Disciple of our Lord”?

Could a Mormon be a “Disciple of our Lord”? What about a oneness Pentecostal? Pagans?

 

[Sirach2]

Allow me to bite on your hook, Irish Polock . .

Judgment by the Interior Law

****Romans 2:****14 For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law. They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus.

St. Thomas Aquinas wrote of this also, and was a strong teacher that the natural law written by God in the heart is sufficient to justify a man, if he lives it accordingly. Of course, if you have followed the thread, it was stated that it is more difficult without the help of the sacraments, which is why we must answer God’s call to proclaim the gospel.

 

[TrueLight]

Hi Truelight!

I mean that in it’s all embracing meaning. None of us can truly know God in His all embracing universality. He is, in the end, after all a complete mystery.

I look at the Orthodox church and see pure and complete devotion to Him. It’s authentic and true. And so many others.

I have full and complete confidence and trust in God’s mercy. He knows those who are earnest in their devotion and striving for discipleship with Him.

Their devotion to Him is no less incomplete and misunderstood as ours is.

God in His fullness, is mystery. We do our best to be part of and understand that. He, in His love and Mercy, accepts what we are capable of giving Him.

That is what I mean.

In so many ways, Bro.Jay has been able to articulate what it means to be a Christian, even beyond by the basic understanding of Catholicism. I think it’s because he understands what St Francis and St Clare were trying to teach in what it means to be truly, fully and wholely, Christ-like.

I think many Catholics seem to let it slip thru their fingers and understanding what it means to be truely, fully, wholey, Christ-like.

I think it’s why St Francis was blest to be the first Stigmatist’s.

He was given that profound mark,sign and blessing for a reason.

He shows what it means to be a disciple of Christ. JMO

Thanks for answering in such detail.

In your opinion, is there any reason to be Catholic?

 

[Marie5890]

Thanks for answering in such detail.

In your opinion, is there any reason to be Catholic?

I think the more and more a person strives to live as closely as possible according to the fullness of truth and strives to understand that, they will be lead to the truth.

The fullness and completeness of that, especially when it comes to the sacraments and the graces that flow from them, will be lead then to where they reside.

I look back on my own journey and can say, my love of the scriptures come from having been LDS. Look at the poor catechisis of the Catholic church, I more likely than not, would have not found that here.

I sometimes wonder if we expect God to operate in some sort of box and expect that He wont act outside of that box? That is it’s “not Catholic” He wont or cant act in anything other than Catholic?

My experience is that He does and does will to act outside of Catholicism.

My experience has taught me that, although my understanding of God WAS disordered when I was LDS, it doesnt mean He didnt act with me according to my understanding when I was LDS.

I felt His found love then, I find it now. My spiritual journey with Our Lord had been just that; a journey of growth and development.

It hasnt been a simple and mere “event”

Never have I once feel that He has abandoned me…LDS or Catholic…

 

[Marie5890]

How would you describe someone who is a “Disciple of our Lord”, and, how does your description of said disciple differ from your view of a devout Catholic?

Good question.

It all has to do with how one views a personal and intimate relationship with Our Lord.

Anyone, regardless of denominational affiliation, can desire profound and intimate relationship with Our Lord. He will be part of that relationship.

I think it’s possible to be a devout Catholic without striving to have an profound and intimate relationship with Our Lord. But one can also be a devout Catholic and strive for profound and intimate relationship with Our Lord.

Profoundly desiring and wanting to have an intimate relationship with Our Lord is not exclusive to Catholics alone.

And He doesnt disappoint.

If a person wants to be that close with Him, He will be there, Catholic or otherwise, even if that view is distorted or not.

 

[Sirach2]

John 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him.”

That’s Our Lord’s scriptural promise, Marie!

 

[Denise1957]

John 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him.”

That’s Our Lord’s scriptural promise, Marie!

Outside of the Catholic faith, what other religion or denomination has all of our Lord’s commandments and observes them?

 

[TrueLight]

I think the more and more a person strives to live as closely as possible according to the fullness of truth and strives to understand that, they will be lead to the truth.

The fullness and completeness of that, especially when it comes to the sacraments and the graces that flow from them, will be lead then to where they reside.

I look back on my own journey and can say, my love of the scriptures come from having been LDS. Look at the poor catechisis of the Catholic church, I more likely than not, would have not found that here.

I sometimes wonder if we expect God to operate in some sort of box and expect that He wont act outside of that box? That is it’s “not Catholic” He wont or cant act in anything other than Catholic?

My experience is that He does and does will to act outside of Catholicism.

My experience has taught me that, although my understanding of God WAS disordered when I was LDS, it doesnt mean He didnt act with me according to my understanding when I was LDS.

I felt His found love then, I find it now. My spiritual journey with Our Lord had been just that; a journey of growth and development.

It hasnt been a simple and mere “event”

Never have I once feel that He has abandoned me…LDS or Catholic…

I feel the same.

I know that the Holy Spirit was with me even when I was a Protestant.

Nevertheless, I cannot believe that as Catholics we do not have an obligation to share our faith. Catholicism cannot be a “that works for me” type of religion.

As I was telling someone else, missionaries were sent to diverse countries to not only help build schools and relieve some poverty, but to preach the Gospel of the Living God. And many died for it.

What of them?

 

[Irish_Polock]

Allow me to bite on your hook, Irish Polock . .

St. Thomas Aquinas wrote of this also, and was a strong teacher that the natural law written by God in the heart is sufficient to justify a man, if he lives it accordingly. Of course, if you have followed the thread, it was stated that it is more difficult without the help of the sacraments, which is why we must answer God’s call to proclaim the gospel.

I can’t say I disagree with you much, although, St. Paul also says that God’s judgment against sin is just as much a part of the gospel as salvation is part of the gospel. For example, in Romans 2:16, St. Paul says that God is going to judge the secrets of men’s thoughts “according to my gospel.” According to Romans 2:14-15, this judgment will either “accuse” or “excuse” men for their works. This is the same result that St. Paul describes in Romans 2:7-8 when God judges each man according to his works. One result excuses them and gives them glory, honor and incorruption; the other accuses them and forces them to take God’s wrath and anger… So, like you have said, if one lives in accordance with the gospel.

But, I think we agree. I assumed that, Marie somehow felt that "devout’ and “staunch” Catholics are not in accordance with said gospel - or at least struggled with it. I hope I assumed wrong.

 

[Sirach2]

Outside of the Catholic faith, what other religion or denomination has all of our Lord’s commandments and observes them?

I believe He reduced them to two, Love God, love neighbor, and everything is contained in these.

 

[Denise1957]

I believe He reduced them to two, Love God, love neighbor, and everything is contained in these.

Does the Church teach that He reduced them to two? How about the sacraments? Our Lord said that unless we eat of His Body and drink of His Blood, we shall not have life in us. Is this, then, not a commandment? And if it’s not a commandment, why does the Church require that we receive Holy Communion at least once a year (at Easter)?

 

[Oneofthewomen]

I feel the same.

I know that the Holy Spirit was with me even when I was a Protestant.

Nevertheless, I cannot believe that as Catholics we do not have an obligation to share our faith. Catholicism cannot be a “that works for me” type of religion.

As I was telling someone else, missionaries were sent to diverse countries to not only help build schools and relieve some poverty, but to preach the Gospel of the Living God. And many died for it.

What of them?

Yes we have an obligation to share our faith, but not everyone is “called” to be a missionary. It in no way detracts from what they did for the faith to believe that “anonymous pew sitter” can preach the Gospel also, and sometimes more effectively!

 

[TrueLight]

Yes we have an obligation to share our faith, but not everyone is “called” to be a missionary. It in no way detracts from what they did for the faith to believe that “anonymous pew sitter” can preach the Gospel also, and sometimes more effectively!

I agree.

But I cannot agree with the “universality” part. No offense, Marie. And I may be completely misunderstanding you.

That’s why there exists Universal Church religions where all religions are fine.

 

[Sirach2]

Does the Church teach that He reduced them to two?

What do you think?