What Archbishop Bugnini Really Said - The Article that Proves It

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What do you think? 😉
Well, you didn’t ask me, but anyway…🙂

By following the two, you end up doing all the rest. If you love God, then you will keep his commandments – all of them. At least you will try to. If you love your neighbor, you will also keep a lot of the commandments.
 
What do you think? 😉
I think that the Church does not teach that the only commandments of our Lord is the “two” to which you were referring. Do you believe that the Church teaches that our Lord only taught that we are to love God and our neighbor?
 
I think that the Church does not teach that the only commandments of our Lord is the “two” to which you were referring. Do you believe that the Church teaches that our Lord only taught that we are to love God and our neighbor?
The question is by “commandments” are you speaking of the Ten Commandments? In that case, Sirach is referring to these verses:
Matthew 22
36Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law?
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37Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind.
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38This is the greatest and the first commandment.
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39And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
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40On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets.
So in that sense, a Protestant can very well follow those commandments.

Now if you’re referring to sacraments, that’s a whole other ball game.
 
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Denise1957:
I think that the Church does not teach that the only commandments of our Lord is the “two” to which you were referring. Do you believe that the Church teaches that our Lord only taught that we are to love God and our neighbor?
That’s a loaded question. Doesn’t matter what I believe, or what you believe. Jesus taught it, and I quoted it. You should ask Him for deeper understanding of His meaning, if it bothers you.
 
But, I think we agree. I assumed that, Marie somehow felt that "devout’ and “staunch” Catholics are not in accordance with said gospel - or at least struggled with it. I hope I assumed wrong. :o
A devout and staunch disciple is known to Our Lord. 👍

I leave the rest in His Hands cause I dont have His heart, although I am striving, 😃
 
I feel the same.

I know that the Holy Spirit was with me even when I was a Protestant.

Nevertheless, I cannot believe that as Catholics we do not have an obligation to share our faith. Catholicism cannot be a “that works for me” type of religion.

As I was telling someone else, missionaries were sent to diverse countries to not only help build schools and relieve some poverty, but to preach the Gospel of the Living God. And many died for it.

What of them?
I believe the Lord is gathering as many of us to Himself who willing follow Him and co-operate with His grace.

The micromanaging of it all, the details, I leave to the Holy Spirit. He is the expert at that and of conversion. I certainly am not. Infact, I basically stink at trying to convert others to Catholicism. 😊
 
That’s a loaded question. Doesn’t matter what I believe, or what you believe. Jesus taught it, and I quoted it. You should ask Him for deeper understanding of His meaning, if it bothers you.
There is no reason for a scriptural quote to bother me. You don’t want to answer the question, which is highly relevant, IMO. That’s fine.

The Catholic Church is the only Church and religion that teaches everything that Our Lord taught. Our Lord commanded to His Apostles that they go out and baptize, and to teach ALL that He had taught them. ALL and EVERYTHING. Our Lord did not say to just love Him and your neighbor and read your bible and then it’s all good. If that’s all that were or is required, then a heirarchy would not have to been set up. Rather, all that would be required is the distribution of bibles, and the simple pronouncement that we have to love one another and God, and that’s it.

It’s only the Catholic Church which strives, and has done so from the beginning to teach all that Our Lord taught. That non-Catholics religions and denominations have truths is obvious. But there is only one true Church and religion, and that’s Catholicism.
 
A devout and staunch disciple is known to Our Lord. 👍
So, a devout Catholic is not necessarily a devout disciple? Could you explain this further?
I leave the rest in His Hands cause I dont have His heart, although I am striving, 😃
Ok, but you did in fact say:
…I have come across those who are staunch Catholics but seem to struggle with discipleship. Im not sure how to respond or to react, in all honesty. 🤷

Sorta like those Pharisees and others who loudly proclaim “BUT WE HAVE ABRAHAM AS OUR FATHER!!”

And the Lord goes, in a sense “So what?”

Never really have really be able to reconcile that ego-filled attitude. 😊
I am not really sure you are honestly leaving much in His hands by comparing these “staunch” and “devout” Catholics with the Pharisees, or saying they might have a ego-filled attitude for whatever reason that causes them to struggle in their faith… 🤷

It’s hypocritical Marie5890.
 
I feel the same.

I know that the Holy Spirit was with me even when I was a Protestant.

Nevertheless, I cannot believe that as Catholics we do not have an obligation to share our faith. Catholicism cannot be a “that works for me” type of religion.

As I was telling someone else, missionaries were sent to diverse countries to not only help build schools and relieve some poverty, but to preach the Gospel of the Living God. And many died for it.

What of them?
As you get older in the Catholic Church and as you read more about the Catholic perspective of Missiology, you’ll find that it’s both a pastoral and a scientific enterprise. The Catholic Church does not subscribe to the idea of going into a place to preach the Gospel by word alone. She never has and never will.

Social outreach is always the first step in Catholic Missiology. Our Catholic missionaries are often misrepresented, because people often write about the part that is attractive to the man in the pew. They leave out the rest. The fact is that they really preached through works.

I’ll give you three of my favorite Missionaries: Francis Xavier, Maximlian Kolbe and Mother Teresa.

Francis Xavier tried his hand at bringing Catholicism to the east as it was. He quickly fond that this was not going to work. He would later change his mind about the methodology and write back to Ignatius that they were totally wrong in their approach. He said, “We have to bring out the Catholic East, not transplant Catholic Europe.” From that time forward, the Jesuits put a lot of energy into living the Gospel in the context of the East, including using their language, even in liturgy. This was long before Vatican II. Gradually, they introduced things like Latin and other European Catholic elements.

Fast forward to the 1930s. Friar Maximilian is was sent to Japan and later to India as the superior of the Franciscans who were there. The first thing that he did was to order the friars to lay aside the Franciscan habit. He wrote a letter back to the superior in Poland in which he said, “Send the friars without habits. The habits have no use here. The only serve to reinforce the Japanese fear of European acculturation.” Later he sent another letter in which he asked for the best teachers, doctors and engineers that the Franciscans had. He said, “The Gospel is not going to be preached unless it’s preached as St. Francis preached, with few words and a great deal of love for the people.”

Then there is Mother Teresa. She taught us that the best way to preach the Gospel is to bring Christ’s love to the people and to find Jesus in them. As she went through her day to day contact with the people whom she served, she would speak about the Lord, offered to pray for them and with them. Gradually, they came to see Jesus as the driving force behind her incredible work. There is a wonderful story about a Hindu who saw her cleaning up the infested wounds of a leprosy patient. He said, “I wouldn’t do that for all the money in the world.” Mother quickly responded, “Neither would I. I do it for him,” and she pointed to a crucifix on the wall.

These are some examples of traditional Catholic missiology. The balance has to be found so that it does not become social work, but avoid it being Protestant proselytism either. It has to be service to Christ in his people in different settings, while showing them and explaining to them that it’s all done for Him.

There are actual courses that the Jesuits, Dominicans and Franciscans developed during the early 19th century based on their centuries of experience in the mission field. The examined their successes and their failures. They handed down to us the wisdom of their experience.

Today, any religious, deacon, priest or layman who is going to the mission field must first train in Missiology Methods and Practices before they go. It’s not just a matter of picking up a bible and catechism and going off.

The proof is in the great failure of the Evangelicals to keep converts in the developing countries. They went in with the idea of preaching. The people flocked to them, because they powerful, eloquent and impressive. Yet, a close look in the third world countries reveals that the door in Evangelical communities is like a revolving door at a mall. They don’t keep people for more than a few years. The people return to their original ways or back to Catholicism.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:
 
The Catholic Church does not subscribe to the idea of going into a place to preach the Gospel by word alone. She never has and never will.
All the Protestant missions I know of don’t just go and preach. They go there to help the poor. they build schools and buy books to teach kids how to read. Sometimes churches take clothes donations and they ship them down to mission houses. So of course, social outreach is important.
. As she went through her day to day contact with the people whom she served, she would speak about the Lord, offered to pray for them and with them.
That’s what I’m talking about!
There is a wonderful story about a Hindu who saw her cleaning up the infested wounds of a leprosy patient. He said, “I wouldn’t do that for all the money in the world.” Mother quickly responded, “Neither would I. I do it for him,” and she pointed to a crucifix on the wall.
Exactly! I’m not talking about some brand of street evangelism. I’m talking about helping people AND sharing your faith.

I hope I never get too old in Catholicism that I lose that desire to share my faith.
 
I have a general question to pose to those of us who are part of the CAF community–

Do you see a distinction between someone who is a faithful Catholic and someone, whether Catholic or not, is a faithful Disciple of Our Lord?
Yes, I do. A Catholic has everything the non-Catholic Christian does, but more. The Protestant may speak of a personal relationship with Jesus, and have a deep interior relationship. The Catholic can have the same, but can also hold this same Jesus in his hand and tongue, receiving th surest form of grace God give us. The Protestant can pray to Jesus with his whole heart. The Catholic can do the same while gazing upon the Lord. The Protestant can ask God’s forgiveness with a contrite heart. The Catholic can too, but he can also hear for the persona christi, “I absolve you.”
 
Rather to the contrary. When you look into it, it appears that the fabricated version originates with Marcel Lefebvre. He doctored the quotation and presented the falsified version as real in a speech in Montreal in 1982; it has been circulating that way ever since.
You have any proof of this accusation?
 
So, a devout Catholic is not necessarily a devout disciple? Could you explain this further?
Is it possible to be a devout Catholic and be a devout disciple? Most certainly.
Is it possible to be a devout Catholic and not be a devout disciple? I would say to that also, most certainly.

If, for your understanding, a devout Catholic automatically means that they are devout disciple, then there really is no difference. Then they are one and the same.

I do believe it’s possible for someone to be a devout Catholic and yet still struggle with being a devout disciple. I believe that of anyone of any Christian faith.

Ideally, they are one and the same. Practically, and in daily life, I dont think that in practice, that ideal is the same.

The Pharisees got living the Law down to an artform…to the point of missing the whole point of the Law.

Speaking for me and for me alone, I always check myself against the parable of the tax collector and the Pharisee.

It keeps my factual claim of “Im a Catholic” in humble perspective.

Ok, so yea, Im a Catholic. Big deal? And how exactly am I living that out? How do I make the Lord “incarnate” as it were to those I come in contact? How do I make Him real and present to those who I come across in my everyday life?

How am I trying to be more like the humble tax collector, knowing I am a sinner, and less like the Pharisee who prays that he grateful he is not like the sinful tax collector?

Those thoughts are never far from my mind … :o
 
Yes, I do. A Catholic has everything the non-Catholic Christian does, but more. The Protestant may speak of a personal relationship with Jesus, and have a deep interior relationship. The Catholic can have the same, but can also hold this same Jesus in his hand and tongue, receiving th surest form of grace God give us. The Protestant can pray to Jesus with his whole heart. The Catholic can do the same while gazing upon the Lord. The Protestant can ask God’s forgiveness with a contrite heart. The Catholic can too, but he can also hear for the persona christi, “I absolve you.”
That is beautiful! Thank you. 🙂
 
I do believe it’s possible for someone to be a devout Catholic and yet still struggle with being a devout disciple. I believe that of anyone of any Christian faith.
A “devout” Catholic may go to daily mass, say the Rosary every night, do a lot of novenas, genuflections, etc, but have no love in his or her heart for his or her neighbor.
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Lord, may we never fall into that category.
 
A “devout” Catholic may go to daily mass, say the Rosary every night, do a lot of novenas, genuflections, etc, but have no love in his or her heart for his or her neighbor.

Lord, may I never fall into that category.
Exactly. And not just a devout Catholic, IMO, but even a devout Christian of any denomination.

There were the multitudes who followed Our Lord, then more close the disciples, then closer still, the 12, which included Judas, then closer still, the three, Peter, James, and John…and ultimately Our Lady…

Im always checking myself----“where admidst all of your followers, Lord, am I? How closely am I really, humbly, striving to be, Lord?”
 
Exactly. And not just a devout Catholic, IMO, but even a devout Christian of any denomination.

There were the multitudes who followed Our Lord, then more close the disciples, then closer still, the 12, which included Judas, then closer still, the three, Peter, James, and John…and ultimately Our Lady…

Im always checking myself----“where admidst all of your followers, Lord, am I? How closely am I really, humbly, striving to be, Lord?”
And those of us who know where we belong…to Our Lord through the Church that He founded… should not be considered as Pharisees because we refuse to equivocate.
 
Is it possible to be a devout Catholic and be a devout disciple? Most certainly.
Is it possible to be a devout Catholic and not be a devout disciple? I would say to that also, most certainly.

If, for your understanding, a devout Catholic automatically means that they are devout disciple, then there really is no difference. Then they are one and the same.

I do believe it’s possible for someone to be a devout Catholic and yet still struggle with being a devout disciple. I believe that of anyone of any Christian faith.

Ideally, they are one and the same. Practically, and in daily life, I dont think that in practice, that ideal is the same.

The Pharisees got living the Law down to an artform…to the point of missing the whole point of the Law.

Speaking for me and for me alone, I always check myself against the parable of the tax collector and the Pharisee.

It keeps my factual claim of “Im a Catholic” in humble perspective.

Ok, so yea, Im a Catholic. Big deal? And how exactly am I living that out? How do I make the Lord “incarnate” as it were to those I come in contact? How do I make Him real and present to those who I come across in my everyday life?

How am I trying to be more like the humble tax collector, knowing I am a sinner, and less like the Pharisee who prays that he grateful he is not like the sinful tax collector?

Those thoughts are never far from my mind … :o
I think the problem is, is that I am not familiar with the term “devout disciple”. Honestly, like you have mentioned, I think they are indeed one in the same. Can a devout Catholic fail is their attempt of Theosis? Yes, it is possible. More then likely I would say. I, myself, very rarely have nothing to confess week to week.

Are you really able to judge these “devout” and “staunch” Catholics as you have? Pharisees, really? 😦
 
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