What are Catholics expected to accept ?

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are you nit picking or implying that Augustine,Leo XIII,Pius XII have been over ruled and their encyclicals rescinded etc - twinc
It is not a matter of overruling or rescinding. Understood properly, what they said is not inconsistent with what the Church teaches today. The best way to understand what the Church teaches on any topic is to read what the Church has recently said on the matter, which generally includes an explanation of how it fits into the long tradition of the Church’s teaching.
 
considering what Scripture says at Gen.7:17-24 and what has been accepted by Christ,the majority of Church Fathers and Tradition are Catholics expected to accept that Noah’s Flood was global and not just local - twinc
I’ve heard this argument before within the church. Sounds like the Historical-Critical Method or something like that. This thinking also explains away all the miracles in the bible. We had a deacon in our parish who pushed this and I asked him in front of everybody this question: Jesus says “For as Jonas was in the whale’s belly three days and three nights: so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth three
days and three nights.” I asked: Was Jonah in the belly of the whale? The deacon said that Christ probably didn’t really say that!!! This is the Jesus Seminar or the Higher Criticism kind of stuff. He had brought up the Flood and said the same thing as you’re asking. Stay away from this kind of thinking!
 
I’ve heard this argument before within the church. Sounds like the Historical-Critical Method or something like that. This thinking also explains away all the miracles in the bible. We had a deacon in our parish who pushed this and I asked him in front of everybody this question: Jesus says “For as Jonas was in the whale’s belly three days and three nights: so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth three
days and three nights.” I asked: Was Jonah in the belly of the whale? The deacon said that Christ probably didn’t really say that!!! This is the Jesus Seminar or the Higher Criticism kind of stuff. He had brought up the Flood and said the same thing as you’re asking. Stay away from this kind of thinking!
The historical critical method does not “explain away” all the miracles in the bible. Like anything else, it can be used well or used poorly. The Church supports its use when used well.
 
The historical critical method does not “explain away” all the miracles in the bible. Like anything else, it can be used well or used poorly. The Church supports its use when used well.
I read a book entitled “Free From All Error” by Fr William Most who answers a lot of these things very well. He discusses things like Source Criticism, Redaction Criticism, Historical-Critical Method, etc. I realize there may be some good that comes out of it but what I would support is having it taught as a theory in some sort of speculative class on the seminary level - not in commentaries used by the average Catholic. I’ve seen the confusion it causes.
 
It is not a matter of overruling or rescinding. Understood properly, what they said is not inconsistent with what the Church teaches today. The best way to understand what the Church teaches on any topic is to read what the Church has recently said on the matter, which generally includes an explanation of how it fits into the long tradition of the Church’s teaching.
so where does or could the Church teach different - twinc
 
I’ve heard this argument before within the church. Sounds like the Historical-Critical Method or something like that. This thinking also explains away all the miracles in the bible. We had a deacon in our parish who pushed this and I asked him in front of everybody this question: Jesus says “For as Jonas was in the whale’s belly three days and three nights: so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth three
days and three nights.” I asked: Was Jonah in the belly of the whale? The deacon said that Christ probably didn’t really say that!!! This is the Jesus Seminar or the Higher Criticism kind of stuff. He had brought up the Flood and said the same thing as you’re asking. Stay away from this kind of thinking!
so what exactly are you doubting - is it easier to change water instantly into wine or bread and wine instantly into the body and blood of Christ or do you not accept this either - twinc
 
so where does or could the Church teach different - twinc
I don’t understand your question. The Church teaches what it teaches. It teaches through the Catechism, through the council documents, through encycicals and other documents. You have charged the Church with “rescinding” its prior teaching. I don’t see it that way. Over time some of the Church’s teachings have developed and grown, and in that sense changed. Christ promised us this would happen.
 
Personally, I do not discuss old earth, young earth, middle earth or flooded earth.

To answer the OP which referred to Adam and Eve.

Catholic are expected to accept the reality of the two, true, sole parents of the human species, commonly known as Adam and Eve.
Catholics are expected to accept Adam’s human nature which in itself unites the spiritual and material worlds.
Catholics are expected to accept Adam’s original sin in which he, the created one, scorned his Creator.
Finally, all human beings are direct descendents of Adam and Eve.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of creation.
 
are you nit picking or implying that Augustine,Leo XIII,Pius XII have been over ruled and their encyclicals rescinded etc - twinc
It’s not a matter of over-ruling. We discover the Truth a little at a time, usually. Sometimes we are lucky enough to discover the truth about a certain occurrence or happening all at once. But the Church does not disallow further discoveries of Truth, nor does she disallow the honing and greater understanding of Truth as we have known it in the past.

That is one reason why Catholics don’t believe in sola scriptura - we know there are other means of discovering Truth and one of those is Apostolic Tradition.
 
I am confused, are you asking or telling? The Church has had a lot to say about biblical interpretation in the 1600 or so years since Augustine, and even since Humani Generis.

If you are asking, I would respond that I think that there is ample reason to believe that many, if not all, of the examples you cite are occassions where the plain literal meaning of scripture is not the intended meaning. In fact, in many cases the literal meaning and the “obvious sense” are not the same.
I think what may be happening here is confusion between literal and literalistic. To read something in a literal sense is to read into the words what the author intended to say. To read something in a literalistic sense is to take every word exactly as it appears, verbatim, with no reference to what the author intended to say. This can cause problems as it doesn’t allow for hyperbole, poetic language, and more.

Obviously the two ways of reading can lead to completely different understandings. A literal reading of the Bible does not necessarily lead a person to believe that the flood was world-wide or that Noah actually obtained male and female specimens of every single species of animal in the world.

I agree with you. Language evolves and what is literalistic reading has now become literal reading, but in a forum the two should be used correctly and consistently. You actually support a literal reading. I do, too.

"Most often what our culture means by the phrase “reading Scripture literally,” would be more correctly rendered “reading Scripture literalistically,” that is, taking each word at face value apart from its literary context. Such an approach drains the life out of language; such readers leech the meaning out of Scripture. For example, a literalistic take on the phrase, “Her eyes are as bright as diamonds,” would claim that her eyes provided a similar luminescence as diamonds. Such a wooden reading misses the poetic thrust of the simile — the radiant beauty that flashes through her eyes.

"An interpretation guided by a one-dimensional view of words may not only fail to glean the true meaning, but may reap the tares of a wrong-headed interpretation. For instance, the poetic comparison inspired from romantic courtship, where the poet sings of his beloved’s beautiful hair, saying, “Your hair is like a flock of goats, moving down the slopes of Gilead” (Song 4:1), can easily be misunderstood if the metaphor is not read correctly. By comparing her hair to a flock of black goats cascading down a mountain, he is thinking of her rich, black hair; a comparison of color, not scent, is the aim of the simile.1 In this case, missing the metaphoric expression leads to an interpretation that is diametrically opposed to the intended meaning of the passage. I can tell you that it took me some explaining to convince the high school students I taught years ago that this image was flattering!

"Context is crucial, and that is why knowing the literary context of what we’re reading is vitally important. In Scripture, God speaks through men in a human fashion. In order to understand what God is communicating, we must carefully search for the intention of the sacred authors. That is why the Church stresses the importance of knowing the literary genres of Scripture: “In determining the intention of the sacred writers, attention must be paid, inter alia, to ‘literary forms for the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts,’ and in other forms of literary expression” (Vatican II, Dei Verbum, no. 12). In short, we are not to take the Bible literalistically, but literarily.

“Should Catholics take the Bible literally? If by literal we are referring to the intention of the author, then yes, Catholics do take the Bible literally. For such a literal reading respects the author’s intention — it reads poetry poetically, metaphors metaphorically, and history historically. The aim of interpreting the Bible is to discern what the author intended by the words he used. For example, when we read that Jesus says it is better to lose a member of one’s body than to sin, we understand that Jesus is teaching about the gravity of sin through hyperbole. We do not take Him as literally commanding dismemberment. Some misreadings can be more costly than others, which is why Origen’s literalistic reading of these words of Jesus (Origen supposedly castrated himself) is an example of the consequences of interpreting words without regard for their rhetorical genre.”

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0076.html
[bolding added]
 
The primary rule of Biblical interpretation,made clear by St.Augustine and long recognised in Tradition,was reiterated by Pope Leo XIII in Providentissimus Deus[1893];“carefully observe the rule so wisely laid down by St.Augustine ----not to depart from the literal and obvious sense,except only where reason makes it untenable or necessity permits”[Pope Benedict XV in Spiritus Paraclitus[1920] and Pope Pius XII in Divino Afflante Spiritu[1943] and Humani Generis[1950] all later wrote in support of Pope Leo XIII] - the onus of proof is therefore upon the person who contends that another sense is superior to the literal and obvious sense[Creation Rediscovered] - twinc
Yes to the literal/literalistic. And actually I believe it was St. Augustine who said to be wary of taking the creation story in Genesis too literalistically (sic!).
 
It’s not a matter of over-ruling. We discover the Truth a little at a time, usually. Sometimes we are lucky enough to discover the truth about a certain occurrence or happening all at once. But the Church does not disallow further discoveries of Truth, nor does she disallow the honing and greater understanding of Truth as we have known it in the past.

That is one reason why Catholics don’t believe in sola scriptura - we know there are other means of discovering Truth and one of those is Apostolic Tradition.
Apostolic Tradition - Faith of our Fathers - Faith of our Church Fathers = we must believe any interpretation of Scripture that the Fathers taught unanimously[Council of Trent and Vatican Council 1] - as regards the Church allowing the discoveries of further Truth and honing and greater understanding of Truth only after the literal sense is discerned can interpreters discover the other senses such as the “fuller"sense,which is a meaning intended by God but not directly intended by the sacred writer.Another meaning is the “typical” sense re future events.Again this would not be directly intended by the human author but known to God. In order to be able to intrpret Scripture,the literal meaning,or what the sacred writer intended to express,must first be known.Divino Afflante Spiritu taught that interpreters of Scripture have as their foremost and greatest endeavour the duty of discerning and defining clearly"that sense of the biblical words which is called the literal”[Creation vs Evolution] - twinc
 
Yes to the literal/literalistic. And actually I believe it was St. Augustine who said to be wary of taking the creation story in Genesis too literalistically (sic!).
of course not everything he said was accepted or acceptable or properly interpreted or understood - twinc
 
Personally, I do not discuss old earth, young earth, middle earth or flooded earth.

To answer the OP which referred to Adam and Eve.

Catholic are expected to accept the reality of the two, true, sole parents of the human species, commonly known as Adam and Eve.
Catholics are expected to accept Adam’s human nature which in itself unites the spiritual and material worlds.
Catholics are expected to accept Adam’s original sin in which he, the created one, scorned his Creator.
Finally, all human beings are direct descendents of Adam and Eve.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of creation.
Very good summary, the whole of genesis does not have to be taken literally. We are free to believe in various scientific theories of evolution so long as they do no contradict the above. Pius XII spelled this out very clearly in Huamis Generis (IIRC) and condemned all theroies of polygenism. And as science moves forward, as is so often the case, it slowly catches up with the church.
 
Apostolic Tradition - Faith of our Fathers - Faith of our Church Fathers = we must believe any interpretation of Scripture that the Fathers taught unanimously[Council of Trent and Vatican Council 1] -
Any interpretation? Scientific interpretations are excluded. One needs to look at the context.🙂
 
Apostolic Tradition - Faith of our Fathers - Faith of our Church Fathers = we must believe any interpretation of Scripture that the Fathers taught unanimously[Council of Trent and Vatican Council 1] - as regards the Church allowing the discoveries of further Truth and honing and greater understanding of Truth only after the literal sense is discerned can interpreters discover the other senses such as the “fuller"sense,which is a meaning intended by God but not directly intended by the sacred writer.Another meaning is the “typical” sense re future events.Again this would not be directly intended by the human author but known to God. In order to be able to intrpret Scripture,the literal meaning,or what the sacred writer intended to express,must first be known.Divino Afflante Spiritu taught that interpreters of Scripture have as their foremost and greatest endeavour the duty of discerning and defining clearly"that sense of the biblical words which is called the literal”[Creation vs Evolution] - twinc
No. You left part out. We are required to believe any interpretation of Scripture that the Fathers taught unanimously regarding faith and morals…Also I noticed that you didn’t provide a link. Did you mean to use these as your own words? They aren’t your words and I have provided the link.

catholicintl.com/scienceissues/nutshell.pdf

So we agree that a literal interpretation of the bible is correct. I’m a bit confused as to why you responded to my post in the way you did.
 
No. You left part out. We are required to believe any interpretation of Scripture that the Fathers taught unanimously regarding faith and morals…Also I noticed that you didn’t provide a link. Did you mean to use these as your own words? They aren’t your words and I have provided the link.

catholicintl.com/scienceissues/nutshell.pdf

So we agree that a literal interpretation of the bible is correct. I’m a bit confused as to why you responded to my post in the way you did.
btw it seems you did even worse and did not quote" Pope Benedict XV in Spiritus Paraclitus where he affirms the constant teaching of the Church on the absolute truth and inerrancy of Scripture and its supereminent authority on this matter.As to those who would limit the inerrancy of Scripture to the primary or religious element he says,“Small wonder, then,that in their view a considerable number of things occur in the Bible touching physical science,history and the like,which cannot be reconciled with modern progress in science”.In other words,where the Bible speaks of things concerning physical science and history,it is infallible whilst modern science is not[Creation vs Evolution] - twinc
 
btw it seems you did even worse and did not quote" Pope Benedict XV in Spiritus Paraclitus where he affirms the constant teaching of the Church on the absolute truth and inerrancy of Scripture and its supereminent authority on this matter.As to those who would limit the inerrancy of Scripture to the primary or religious element he says,“Small wonder, then,that in their view a considerable number of things occur in the Bible touching physical science,history and the like,which cannot be reconciled with modern progress in science”.In other words,where the Bible speaks of things concerning physical science and history,it is infallible whilst modern science is not[Creation vs Evolution] - twinc
What are you talking about? I have no idea what this post means. :confused:
 
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