What are differences in finances/size of Catholic and Protestant parishes?

[lak611]

I have noticed that successful, financially viable Catholic parishes usually must be huge. If a Catholic parish has only 200 families, it usually is closed. However, many mainline denomination Protestant parishes are thriving with 200 families. Assuming that neither the Catholic parish, nor the Protestant parish has a school, why is it that the Protestant parish can thrive while the Catholic parish must close? What are the differences in expenditures? Also, most likely the Protestant parish must support a pastor and his family, since most Protestant parishes have married clergy, but the Catholic parish would have only the priest to support; so why would the contributions not be enough to support one priest at the Catholic parish? I know that not all Protestants tithe, so that cannot be the only explanation. Why must a Catholic parish have 2000 families to be successful, when Protestant parishes of mainline denominations (such as Lutheran, Methodist and Presbyterian) survive and thrive with only 200 families?

 

[1ke]

I think your statements are overly broad and not based in fact.

My parish has 79 families and a pile of money in the bank and is in no danger of closing.

Parishes close for many reasons. So do Protestant churches.

There is a small church on the corner near my mom’s house-- they’ve lived there 30+ years-- and it’s been about a dozen different denominations. A church opens, is there a few years, closes, and then the property is sold and another opens…

I don’t think you can generalize in the way you are trying to.

 

[justinthemartyr]

This seems to be a generality at best. I know parishes that do great with only 50-100 families, because they live modestly and humbly and life is not about money, but about God and family.

Our parish has about 400 families or so and supports an entire grade school with paid staff, custodians and even a paid musician and everything else. It takes a lot of serving others, through catering etc. Much volunteer work for the community and a parish which is alive in the faith.

I know of dozens of protestant churches that do well for awhile, yet the pastor left after a time and they did not like the new pastor because he didn’t preach the same way the last one did, so they lost 75% of the congregation and closed.

Many times it doesn’t even take the pastor leaving, the congregation leaves because they look for a new way to worship that seems more “dynamic” or music that is makes htem “feel” better.

The Catholic church is not about sensationalism nor “feeling”, but about absolute Truth in the midst of a world that doesn’t want you to believe in absolutes.

I went to over 18 denominations all preaching different things about the same doctrinal subjects and each offered a new spiritual “high” for me. It was similar to when I did drugs, in that the church I would attend next made me feel better than the last one, and I mistakenly took that for God sometimes, not saying it was not Him at times. That is just my experience. I am thankful to my protestant brothers and sisters for initially bringing me into a relationship with Jesus Christ and nurturing that until I found my home in the Church.

I think that if you give the best to God and take care of His Church and give Him what He asks of you(financially or other wise) He will bless the place of worship that you choose. If it wanders from this too far, then I believe He gives you what you ask for, and that is no church.

I am not aware of many Catholic Churches that close because of this, except in matters of lawsuits from the scandals in certain diocese, but those will go away and new ones will be there to replace them for another 1-200 years. Our church has existed for 150 years in the small town I live in.

peace, Justin

 

[lak611]

I think your statements are overly broad and not based in fact.

My parish has 79 families and a pile of money in the bank and is in no danger of closing.

Parishes close for many reasons. So do Protestant churches.

There is a small church on the corner near my mom’s house-- they’ve lived there 30+ years-- and it’s been about a dozen different denominations. A church opens, is there a few years, closes, and then the property is sold and another opens…

I don’t think you can generalize in the way you are trying to.

Perhaps, I should have mentioned in my OP, that I was referring to parishes in the city, not in rural areas. I have lived in the city my entire life, and have never lived in a small town. Perhaps someone could provide insight regarding my OP in light of the new qualification I have added. In my diocese, many parishes that are small are in financial trouble and slated for merger or closure, but Lutheran, Methodist and Presbyterian parishes with similar numbers of parishioners are not on the chopping block.

 

[lak611]

This seems to be a generality at best. I know parishes that do great with only 50-100 families, because they live modestly and humbly and life is not about money, but about God and family.

Our parish has about 400 families or so and supports an entire grade school with paid staff, custodians and even a paid musician and everything else. It takes a lot of serving others, through catering etc. Much volunteer work for the community and a parish which is alive in the faith.

I know of dozens of protestant churches that do well for awhile, yet the pastor left after a time and they did not like the new pastor because he didn’t preach the same way the last one did, so they lost 75% of the congregation and closed.

Many times it doesn’t even take the pastor leaving, the congregation leaves because they look for a new way to worship that seems more “dynamic” or music that is makes htem “feel” better.

The Catholic church is not about sensationalism nor “feeling”, but about absolute Truth in the midst of a world that doesn’t want you to believe in absolutes.

I went to over 18 denominations all preaching different things about the same doctrinal subjects and each offered a new spiritual “high” for me. It was similar to when I did drugs, in that the church I would attend next made me feel better than the last one, and I mistakenly took that for God sometimes, not saying it was not Him at times. That is just my experience. I am thankful to my protestant brothers and sisters for initially bringing me into a relationship with Jesus Christ and nurturing that until I found my home in the Church.

I think that if you give the best to God and take care of His Church and give Him what He asks of you(financially or other wise) He will bless the place of worship that you choose. If it wanders from this too far, then I believe He gives you what you ask for, and that is no church.

I am not aware of many Catholic Churches that close because of this, except in matters of lawsuits from the scandals in certain diocese, but those will go away and new ones will be there to replace them for another 1-200 years. Our church has existed for 150 years in the small town I live in.

peace, Justin

Thank you for your insight. I probably should have mentioned that I was referring to parishes, Catholic and mainline denomination Protestant, in the city, not in a small town.

 

[ralphinal]

It really depends on a lot of factors, not the smallest of which is the size of the Catholic population in an area. There are some very, very small parishes in Alabama. There are also some large ones. Here, it is as much a matter of how many live nearby. I know a priest in Kentucky, way up in the mountains. His church is small and poor (they share the parking lot with the AME church next door), but they are not in danger of being closed.

What you see in Ohio may be a product of a shift in Catholic population.

 

[justinthemartyr]

Laura, sometimes when the priest is not transmitting the faith well from the pulpit, the congregation does not feel as if they are being fed. This is also true if the parents are not properly catechizing their children, if they do not believe, then why would they want to support what they don’t believe but may only feel obligated to attend in almost a mechanical form sometimes? this was true for me in the churches I went to that I did not feel as if I were being “fed”. if the preacher was good at making me feel good, and the music also, then I gave, if not I gave less. As a catholic I give at least 5% when I can and more when I can. I give as much of my time and talents as possible.

 

[lak611]

It really depends on a lot of factors, not the smallest of which is the size of the Catholic population in an area. There are some very, very small parishes in Alabama. There are also some large ones. Here, it is as much a matter of how many live nearby. I know a priest in Kentucky, way up in the mountains. His church is small and poor (they share the parking lot with the AME church next door), but they are not in danger of being closed.

What you see in Ohio may be a product of a shift in Catholic population.

What you are saying does make sense. Perhaps some Protestants from parishes in a big city will provide some insight into population demographics and finances at their parishes.

 

[BrianH]

I have noticed that successful, financially viable Catholic parishes usually must be huge. If a Catholic parish has only 200 families, it usually is closed. However, many mainline denomination Protestant parishes are thriving with 200 families. Assuming that neither the Catholic parish, nor the Protestant parish has a school, why is it that the Protestant parish can thrive while the Catholic parish must close? What are the differences in expenditures? Also, most likely the Protestant parish must support a pastor and his family, since most Protestant parishes have married clergy, but the Catholic parish would have only the priest to support; so why would the contributions not be enough to support one priest at the Catholic parish? I know that not all Protestants tithe, so that cannot be the only explanation. Why must a Catholic parish have 2000 families to be successful, when Protestant parishes of mainline denominations (such as Lutheran, Methodist and Presbyterian) survive and thrive with only 200 families?

That is a very good question. I have no clue but I think it is fun to speculate.
How much money from a Catholic Church has to be “sent out” ie turned into the…what do you guys call it? DICOCESE
I know in the United Methodist Church, the figure is not very high.
We do not have to send that much money to the Conference.

Our minimum salary for a full time local pastor is about 28 k. A local pastor is not going to be seminary trained usually but goes to a local school (3 or 4 weeks of schooling a year for 5 years). We also have half time local pastors, we only have to pay them half of the full time salary, so that can get pretty cheap. We also have a surplus of ministers. Catholic churches have a shortage.
Usually you guys will have a school attached, that gets expensive I am sure.
Great question, I am interested in church finance issues.

 

[lak611]

That is a very good question. I have no clue but I think it is fun to speculate.
How much money from a Catholic Church has to be “sent out” ie turned into the…what do you guys call it? DICOCESE
I know in the United Methodist Church, the figure is not very high.
We do not have to send that much money to the Conference.

Our minimum salary for a full time local pastor is about 28 k. A local pastor is not going to be seminary trained usually but goes to a local school. We also have half time local pastors, we only have to pay them half of the full time salary, so that can get pretty cheap. We also have a surplus of ministers. Catholic churches have a shortage.
Usually you guys will have a school attached, that gets expensive I am sure.
Great question, I am interested in church finance issues.

Thank, Brian. Perhaps a Catholic who has knowledge of how much money a parish has to send to the diocese will know. I do not have any idea what the requirements are. That may be the difference, since you mentioned that United Methodist parishes do not have to send a lot of money to the Conference.

As for the school issue, most of the small Catholic parishes in the city do not have schools. That was one of the reasons why I specified “no school” in my OP. I do know that a Lutheran parish with declining membership recently closed their school. As far as I know, the parish is not slated for closure. The Catholic parish I grew up in closed their school several years ago, and with membership at around 200 families, the parish was closed on the last Sunday of October. I went to the closing service.

 

[BrianH]

Thank, Brian. Perhaps a Catholic who has knowledge of how much money a parish has to send to the diocese will know. I do not have any idea what the requirements are. That may be the difference, since you mentioned that United Methodist parishes do not have to send a lot of money to the Conference.

As for the school issue, most of the small Catholic parishes in the city do not have schools. That was one of the reasons why I specified “no school” in my OP. I do know that a Lutheran parish with declining membership recently closed their school. As far as I know, the parish is not slated for closure. The Catholic parish I grew up in closed their school several years ago, and with membership at around 200 families, the parish was closed on the last Sunday of October. I went to the closing service.

That is very interesting, just another comment. It is not uncommon, and I have been to 20-30 churches in Wichita, to see 40-60 people at a service in many of the mainline churches and yet they do stay open. I have known…3 or 4 mainline churches close in the last 10 years, out of 100 or so in town.

 

[D317]

I think that ‘protestant churches’ take an entirely different approach than the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church depends on its members to make contributions to sustain it. Protestants seem to be more innovative.

A church called (name changed to protect the innocent) Death Path in Colorado seems to be run by developers and contractors who pad their pockets under the guise of a ‘church.’

They had a very senior member of their ‘church’ on the county board and he fronted a proposal for the developers & contractors [under the guise of Death Path] to purchase land and build a community, not just a church (that will be developed by, guess who)? When it was discovered that this extremely unethical situation occurred, their ‘church’ did a full court press to finally prevail.

It will be built in an area where the neighbors have expressly stated the new construction is not wanted (due to the construction plans calling for sports stadiums and multi story buildings in a rural community).

Seems that they pulled the same stunt with their current facility.
This ‘church’ is very well off and the developers & contractors are millionaires.

Don’t know how they live with themselves. Not sure if this is a general practice or just the way this non-denom interprets their bible.

Also, I don’t think that parishes are required to give much more than 10% or less to the D or AD.

 

[1ke]

Perhaps, I should have mentioned in my OP, that I was referring to parishes in the city, not in rural areas. I have lived in the city my entire life, and have never lived in a small town. Perhaps someone could provide insight regarding my OP in light of the new qualification I have added. In my diocese, many parishes that are small are in financial trouble and slated for merger or closure, but Lutheran, Methodist and Presbyterian parishes with similar numbers of parishioners are not on the chopping block.

I should have clarified, the Church down the road from my parents that kept changing hands is in the big city.

Also, before moving to my now very rural area, I lived in the same city as my mom-- the fourth largest in our nation. I lived in Houston for almost 20 years.

The Catholic parishes that are huge didn’t start that way-- they grew. My old parish was the largest in the state, I don’t know how many families they have now but they had over 7000 when I left 2 years ago. They started out as a split off from another parish in 1965 with only a handful of families. Meanwhile, some other parishes have dwindled in number and have been merged into other parishes.

It’s demographics and the fact that as Catholics we are one body. When it makes sense to merge in order to best serve the Body of Christ that is what they do. Remember, the local church is **NOT **the parish-- it’s the diocese. The **Bishop **is our pastor.

Remember, also, in the Protestant world “First Baptist” and “Second Baptist” are NOT part of one entity-- they are completely independent of each other. And often not only are they completely financially and hierarchically independent but also *theologically *too. So, people from First B. won’t go merge with people from Second B. b/c they have different views on dancing or drinking or whatever.

I think your premise, whether talking about rural or city churches, is not well formed. Each parish situation is unique as is each Protestant church situation.

 

[lak611]

It’s demographics and the fact that as Catholics we are one body. When it makes sense to merge in order to best serve the Body of Christ that is what they do. Remember, the local church is **NOT **the parish-- it’s the diocese. The **Bishop **is our pastor.

Remember, also, in the Protestant world “First Baptist” and “Second Baptist” are NOT part of one entity-- they are completely independent of each other. And often not only are they completely financially and hierarchically independent but also *theologically *too. So, people from First B. won’t go merge with people from Second B. b/c they have different views on dancing or drinking or whatever.

I think your premise, whether talking about rural or city churches, is not well formed. Each parish situation is unique as is each Protestant church situation.

I am specifically referring to Protestant churches in the same denomination, for instance, United Methodist, Southern Baptist, ELCA, LCMS. None of these would merge parishes/congregations with a church of a different denomination unless the entire denomination merged with another.

 

[peary]

I have noticed that successful, financially viable Catholic parishes usually must be huge. If a Catholic parish has only 200 families, it usually is closed. However, many mainline denomination Protestant parishes are thriving with 200 families. Assuming that neither the Catholic parish, nor the Protestant parish has a school, why is it that the Protestant parish can thrive while the Catholic parish must close? What are the differences in expenditures? Also, most likely the Protestant parish must support a pastor and his family, since most Protestant parishes have married clergy, but the Catholic parish would have only the priest to support; so why would the contributions not be enough to support one priest at the Catholic parish? I know that not all Protestants tithe, so that cannot be the only explanation. Why must a Catholic parish have 2000 families to be successful, when Protestant parishes of mainline denominations (such as Lutheran, Methodist and Presbyterian) survive and thrive with only 200 families?

**What is interesting is that Catholics give more to charities than they do to their own parishes!

I know of no “rule of thumb” that states that a parish of 200 families is closed while a protestant congregation keeps going.
For one thing, there is no accountability in protestant congregations; they are self-sufficient. They don’t necessarily have to answer to a larger district except, perhaps, mainline protestant congregations. But even there, the conferences usually keep a hands-off approach.

Don’t think that catholic parishes are ‘rich’, especially if they have a school, which takes up a good chunk of finances. And because of changing demographics in a certain area, there may be far more nonCatholics than Catholics who either die off or move away, so the support of the parish isn’t there because the Catholic population isn’t there. So, parishes close but are combined with other closer parishes.**

 

[BrianH]

We don’t count by families, what matters is attendance, that is what we always seem to look at. Protestants do not say, x number of people belong to my church…we say, “this many people attend on average”.
So when you say 200 families, if that translates to like a Sunday attendance of 100
that would be considered a very respectable size and would never close around here. In fact, an attendance of 100 would be the envy of several of our churches.

The churches in trouble have less than 40 in attendance on Sunday.
But there are exceptions.
Like the Episcopalian church down the street in an old tire store they “converted”(not too well not trying to be judgemental), they get around 25 or 30 people every Sunday. I have been with a friend twice and they are a vibrant active little congregation. They have an Episcopalian priest, and this guy must be 80 at least, show up on Sunday but they do all the leg work during the week.
I heard he gets a stipend, I dont know how much, for showing up on Sundays. So that has got to be pretty cheap because the mortgage on the building cant be more than 1000 a month at the very most, probably much less.

 

[lak611]

We don’t count by families, what matters is attendance, that is what we always seem to look at. Protestants do not say, x number of people belong to my church…we say, “this many people attend on average”.
So when you say 200 families, if that translates to like a Sunday attendance of 100
that would be considered a very respectable size and would never close around here. In fact, an attendance of 100 would be the envy of several of our churches.

The churches in trouble have less than 40 in attendance on Sunday.
But there are exceptions.
Like the Episcopalian church down the street in an old tire store they “converted”(not too well not trying to be judgemental), they get around 25 or 30 people every Sunday. I have been with a friend twice and they are a vibrant active little congregation. They have an Episcopalian priest, and this guy must be 80 at least, show up on Sunday but they do all the leg work during the week.
I heard he gets a stipend, I dont know how much, for showing up on Sundays. So that has got to be pretty cheap because the mortgage on the building cant be more than 1000 a month at the very most, probably much less.

In terms of attendance, my Catholic parish gives the collection figures in the bulletin each week. Generally, out of 2000 families, 700 envelopes are turned in every week. That is pretty much the norm here. About 30% of Catholics attend Mass weekly.

 

[SyCarl]

I am the treasurer for the Board of Managers of a large Presbyterian Church. Larger churches send money to the Presbytery and the national church which helps to support smaller congregations. I know it is similar in the United Church of Canada. I attended one (no local Presbyterian Church in that area) that only had about 15-20 people in attendance. It pretty much depended on Prebytery for survival.

 

[lak611]

I am the treasurer for the Board of Managers of a large Presbyterian Church. Larger churches send money to the Presbytery and the national church which helps to support smaller congregations. I know it is similar in the United Church of Canada. I attended one (no local Presbyterian Church in that area) that only had about 15-20 people in attendance. It pretty much depended on Prebytery for survival.

That is interesting. Perhaps someone will know if Catholic parishes are completely self-supporting or if the diocese supports the small parishes with money from the large parishes.

 

[ralphinal]

I will find out about how much, as a percentage, we send to the Diocese and if all Diocese work the same. Larger churches, through the diocese, support smaller ones.

With Protestant denominations, I think it depends. Churches with a central authority (Methodist, Anglican, etc.) are probably similar to Catholic. Churches without one (Baptist) more than likely have to be self sufficient. I have been told by several Baptists that to be true.