What are differences in finances/size of Catholic and Protestant parishes?

[lak611]

I will find out about how much, as a percentage, we send to the Diocese and if all Diocese work the same. Larger churches, through the diocese, support smaller ones.

Thank you. I appreciate your help in finding this out.

With Protestant denominations, I think it depends. Churches with a central authority (Methodist, Anglican, etc.) are probably similar to Catholic. Churches without one (Baptist) more than likely have to be self sufficient. I have been told by several Baptists that to be true.

Would the Baptist churches still be self-sufficient if they were part of a central authority such as SBC?

 

[ralphinal]

Thank you. I appreciate your help in finding this out.

Would the Baptist churches still be self-sufficient if they were part of a central authority such as SBC?

No problem. I was told this by SBC members. I may be wrong, but I think that the SBC is more of a guide than a governing body. I know that their resolutions are not binding.

 

[lak611]

No problem. I was told this by SBC members. I may be wrong, but I think that the SBC is more of a guide than a governing body. I know that their resolutions are not binding.

Ok. That makes sense.

 

[1ke]

I am specifically referring to Protestant churches in the same denomination, for instance, United Methodist, Southern Baptist, ELCA, LCMS. None of these would merge parishes/congregations with a church of a different denomination unless the entire denomination merged with another.

I was talking about churches in the same “denomination” not different denominations. That is why I used First Baptist and Second Baptist as examples. While both are “baptist” they are not necessarily teaching the exact same thing nor would their congregations be interested in merging with each other nor are they in any way interdependent. They are completely independent.

The Catholic Church is not this way. It is a fundamental difference in the understanding of what it means to be CHURCH.

 

[1ke]

Would the Baptist churches still be self-sufficient if they were part of a central authority such as SBC?

Yes they are completely independent. Also, they have no “central authority.”

I think you are trying to superimpose Catholic structures and thought onto protestant denominations. It just doesn’t work.

 

[lak611]

I was talking about churches in the same “denomination” not different denominations. That is why I used First Baptist and Second Baptist as examples. While both are “baptist” they are not necessarily teaching the exact same thing nor would their congregations be interested in merging with each other nor are they in any way interdependent. They are completely independent.

The Catholic Church is not this way. It is a fundamental difference in the understanding of what it means to be CHURCH.

Ok, so it looks like Baptists do not have financial support from their central organization. Apparently Presbyterians and United Methodists do. Raphinal is going to obtain information about how much financial support is given to poor Catholic parishes from the diocese. Now my question would be, does a Catholic diocese support small parishes in order to keep them open or close them and merge them with a larger parish? What are the situations that the diocese takes under consideration?

 

[lak611]

Yes they are completely independent. Also, they have no “central authority.”

I think you are trying to superimpose Catholic structures and thought onto protestant denominations. It just doesn’t work.

I understand the situation with the SBC. However, the United Methodist and Presbyterian posters said that the situation is completely different. The Presbyterian church appears to be more supportive of keeping a small parish open than some Catholic dioceses.

 

[peary]

**I post my initial reply again:

What is interesting is that Catholics give more to charities than they do to their own parishes!

I know of no “rule of thumb” that states that a parish of 200 families is closed while a protestant congregation keeps going.
For one thing, there is no accountability in protestant congregations; they are self-sufficient. They don’t necessarily have to answer to a larger district except, perhaps, mainline protestant congregations. But even there, the conferences usually keep a hands-off approach.

Don’t think that catholic parishes are ‘rich’, especially if they have a school, which takes up a good chunk of finances. And because of changing demographics in a certain area, there may be far more nonCatholics than Catholics who either die off or move away, so the support of the parish isn’t there because the Catholic population isn’t there. So, parishes close but are combined with other closer parishes.**

 

[1ke]

Now my question would be, does a Catholic diocese support small parishes in order to keep them open or close them and merge them with a larger parish? What are the situations that the diocese takes under consideration?

This is all at the discretion of the Bishop of that diocese. The Bishop is the pastor of his diocese and has authority in the matter. Therefore, what happens in one diocese may be different than what happens in another. As long as he is in compliance with Canon Law-- which give much leeway to the Bishop-- then he can do as he sees fit.

 

[BrianH]

For one thing, there is no accountability in protestant congregations; they are self-sufficient. They don’t necessarily have to answer to a larger district except, perhaps, mainline protestant congregations. But even there, the conferences usually keep a hands-off approach.

]

Perhaps mainline? Name a mainline that does not. Many conservative congregations have very strong central authorities as well. The statement is simply not accurate.

 

[AllSaints1631]

I have noticed that successful, financially viable Catholic parishes usually must be huge. If a Catholic parish has only 200 families, it usually is closed. However, many mainline denomination Protestant parishes are thriving with 200 families. Assuming that neither the Catholic parish, nor the Protestant parish has a school, why is it that the Protestant parish can thrive while the Catholic parish must close? What are the differences in expenditures? Also, most likely the Protestant parish must support a pastor and his family, since most Protestant parishes have married clergy, but the Catholic parish would have only the priest to support; so why would the contributions not be enough to support one priest at the Catholic parish? I know that not all Protestants tithe, so that cannot be the only explanation. Why must a Catholic parish have 2000 families to be successful, when Protestant parishes of mainline denominations (such as Lutheran, Methodist and Presbyterian) survive and thrive with only 200 families?

I think that your question suggests a bit of generalism.

 

[dparker]

From the Evangelical Protestant side, the only churches that get any financial help from above are newly planted young churches that receive help from their sponsoring church. And this is only for a short period of time while they are getting established.

Not only do established churches not receive financial help, they actually give a great deal to support missions and outreach.

Tithing has been glossed over, but it really is a key difference. The 10% first fruits (tithe) is uniformly taught in Evangelical churches. It’s of course an ‘honor system’ and nobody gets kicked out for not giving, but it is taught and practiced as a spiritual principle. Even those that don’t tithe, believe they should.

If even just 20% of regular attending families tithe, that is a significant income for the church. Also, special appeals for missions, expansion, etc., are often made requesting ‘offerings’ above the tithe.

One Sunday night at our church we received a special offering for the purchase of some land and the ~1400 people present gave just over $100,000 in that one offering. Not pledged…but actually given that night.

The cultural mindset among many Evangelical/Pentecostals is to put God first, not just with your time and energy, but also with your money.

 

[peary]

Perhaps mainline? Name a mainline that does not. Many conservative congregations have very strong central authorities as well. The statement is simply not accurate.

If you read my quote, I said that. But the fact remains, most ecclesial communities do not have a strong central authority when it comes to finances. It is usually the pastor or minister who is the authority on finance.

 

[ALLGIRLS]

From the Evangelical Protestant side, the only churches that get any financial help from above are newly planted young churches that receive help from their sponsoring church. And this is only for a short period of time while they are getting established.

Not only do established churches not receive financial help, they actually give a great deal to support missions and outreach.

Tithing has been glossed over, but it really is a key difference. The 10% first fruits (tithe) is uniformly taught in Evangelical churches. It’s of course an ‘honor system’ and nobody gets kicked out for not giving, but it is taught and practiced as a spiritual principle. Even those that don’t tithe, believe they should.

If even just 20% of regular attending families tithe, that is a significant income for the church. Also, special appeals for missions, expansion, etc., are often made requesting ‘offerings’ above the tithe.

One Sunday night at our church we received a special offering for the purchase of some land and the ~1400 people present gave just over $100,000 in that one offering. Not pledged…but actually given that night.

The cultural mindset among many Evangelical/Pentecostals is to put God first, not just with your time and energy, but also with your money.

This is a very good point, and although Laura doesn’t think it matters much, I believe it is tithing that makes a difference. One of my pet peeves is that Catholics don’t tithe (some still give a dollar a week, just like they did 20 or 30 years ago), then we whine about having to pay for things, like VBS, that are free in nonCatholic churches. I attend a “mega parish” of about 4000 families in a very affluent area, and we still struggle to get the $37,000 a week to run the church, not to mention getting people to contribute to other things. I’m in the St. Louis Archdiocese, and Archbp Burke closed and merged a lot of parishes, which made a lot of people mad, but what was he supposed to do? The parish where I grew up had an average attendance of 75 people each Sunday (one Mass, no weekday Masses) when it closed, and the last Easter Mass had 200. That’s how it is in most of the city churches that closed. If those extra 125 people were there every Sunday, or even if just the 75 tithed, the church probably could have stayed open. But most of those city churches (at least in St. Louis) are very old and most rather large, so they cost A LOT to heat and maintain, on top of paying the pastor and other staff. I think part of the problem (why Catholics don’t tithe) is that there’s this idea that the “Church” has a ton of money, so why should they give (and now it’s even worse, since many are convinced that their offerings are going to pay sex abuse settlements, or they don’t want to support a Bishop they believe caused or contributed to the abuse crisis, so some no longer give anything at all). But where does this money come from? FROM THE OFFERINGS! The Priests and Bishops aren’t working part time jobs or playing the stock market. If a church, Catholic or nonCatholic, can’t collect enough in the collection plate or basket to pay its bills, it will close. NonCatholics usually know where the money comes from, so they don’t let that happen. Even if the congregation shrinks, if the remaining members are really attached to the church, they’ll step up and make sure it keeps going. Catholics don’t do that. It’s sad, but other than yelling "TITHE!’ every chance I get :banghead:, I don’t have the answer .

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[dparker]

Well, as I understand Catholic teaching, tithing is not instructed.

And I actually agree that tithing is an old testament model that isn’t clearly taught in the new testament. Instead, ALL that we have should be available to the Lord and often 10% is too meager a sum for those whose heart is attuned to His will.

I don’t bicker with the tithing teaching…I just think it understates what many of us should be giving to His work. I do recall while reading the Didache recently that it also discussed bringing ‘first fruits’ to the church.

If God’s work/church/the poor are not receiving at least 10% of our income, then I submit we are violating at least the spirit if not the letter of scripture.

 

[happygal]

Well the closure of any churches can be really upsetting for many christians/catholics…However running a church/parish will need funds to maintain its’s premise, utilities, giving to charity…etc…etc…but w/o tithing/offering it wouldn’t work.

Moreover, not many Catholics serve tithing to their parish, then it can put the parish at a difficult position. If the members of the congreration is not having enough to feed themselves, then how wuold they possibly be able to build a stronger church for Jesus ??

Althought, tithing is not instructed by the CC, but nonetheless the Philosophy and Principles of Tithing according to the Rule of St. Michael mentioned the followings for the Catholics:

a) Give back to the Lord in gratitude a portion of everything God has given, whether through paychecks, dividends, unexpected windfalls, Social Security payments, or regular allowances.

b) See the gift as a sacrifice, a donation that seems almost more than affordable, an offering that “makes holy” (the literal meaning of the word “sacrifice”) all the efforts and earnings of the past month.

c) Use whatever means the Local Community may use to identify your tithe as a donation from you, thus both manifesting to others your commitment to regular support of the Community and actively participating in the collection as part of the Community’s Conventual Mass worship.

d) Consider the biblical norm of tithing in determining the amount of your sacrificial gift. The biblical norm was ten (10) percent of gross income. But in addition, there were many other “required” offerings. Both tithes and offering could equal more than one-third (1/3) of a families’ gross income. The specific amounts or percentages recommended for members shall be discussed in the General Directory.

1. Tithing means to give of a person’s gross income. The tithe, however, is only a barometer, guideline, or estimating level for one’s sacrificial giving. Some can and should offer more than the recommended amount of their tithe; others may return less than that percentage.
2. If the amount of the suggested tithe is legitimately too much for one’s current budget, a member may begin with a lower percentage that will be both sacrificial and yet possible. Then the member may gradually raise the level of giving until the full suggested amount is reached. In this way brothers and sisters and families are making a decision for the Lord first and only afterward considering their own needs and wants.
3. Families should involve their children in tithing by teaching them through word and by example the priority of returning to God a portion of the blessing He has given us. Children may do this through tithing their allowances or income from part-time jobs.
4. Those faithful Christians who tithe report how remarkably their material needs have been met. Moreover, they will cite these blessings as even greater, spiritual rewards:
5. a sense of serenity and satisfaction that comes from generosity;
6. an awareness that God comes first, even in decisions about money;
7. a recognition that one has eliminated the practice of making contributions that are mere leftovers or contributions of habit;
8. a deep sense of satisfaction in the progress made by the Order due to the amount of tithing by its members;
9. an ability to distinguish between wants and needs;
10. a deeper consciousness of society’s materialism and consumerism;
11. A keener appreciation of the world’s poor and how we should and can alleviate their pain and poverty;
12. A quiet confidence in the Lord’s protective care.

 

[Aramis]

That is interesting. Perhaps someone will know if Catholic parishes are completely self-supporting or if the diocese supports the small parishes with money from the large parishes.

Most but not all are self-supporting.

The Catholic Extension Service provides funding for missions and small parishes in a variety of places.

Some orders support remote clerics they have sent until the parish can.

many small parishes can be supported in whole or part by the diocesan treasury.

In Anchorage, the bishop makes an annual appeal direct to the faithful.

 

[O.S.Luke]

know in the United Methodist Church, the figure is not very high.
We do not have to send that much money to the Conference.

Sounds like I need to move to your conference. Our local church sends 18% of its budget to the conference. That’s $60k a year.

The UMC average of local church giving to their conference (akin to a diocese) is 12%-20%. That’s more than the traditional 10% tithe.

We also have a surplus of ministers. Catholic churches have a shortage.

60% of our current pastors are retiring in the next 5 years. We’d like to have some of your surplus, Brian.

 

[Sr_Sally]

What you are saying does make sense. Perhaps some Protestants from parishes in a big city will provide some insight into population demographics and finances at their parishes.

One thing I can say is that a Pastor’s sole support is not just from his church wages. A married pastor could have a working spouse, so could have some kind of ‘side’ job.

You also have no way of knowing how ‘thriving’ a protestant church with just 300 members (or even member families) truly is. They could be ‘graying’ out, they could have dropped from 2 or 3 Sunday morning services to just one, the denomination may indeed be discussing closing the church. Since you don’t attend there, you don’t necessarily know.

As 1ke said, the Catholic church is a particular city is the diocese. Think of each parish as a ‘branch campus’ of sorts. So, overall, if two parishes merge, or a parish splits because of growth, the overall church really remains the same.

 

[peary]

Sounds like I need to move to your conference. Our local church sends 18% of its budget to the conference. That’s $60k a year.

The UMC average of local church giving to their conference (akin to a diocese) is 12%-20%. That’s more than the traditional 10% tithe.

60% of our current pastors are retiring in the next 5 years. We’d like to have some of your surplus, Brian.

]

**Only if they make a firm commitment to celibacy and being a Catholic priest not in name only. **