What are gay Catholics supposed to do?

[Dorothy]

The bigger problem is that the 12 step program they use is really only applicable to people who have washed out of “the gay lifestyle”, is of limited use to those who were never sex addicts and is useless to virgins.

There is indeed nothing wrong with intimate and chaste same sex relationships theologically. Once upon a time the Church blessed those relationships and some Apostolic Churches do to this day. Obsessing about “scandal” and butting their heads into everything is an American vice. European Catholics, even the very religious ones, tend to not intrude so deeply into the lives of others as Americans do, they leave people alone unless they are committing truly public sin. The problem with people these days is they no longer have the extended family. Historically people didn’t leave their parents house until they got married, in such a situation they kept their family which was great. People also had much more contact with aunts, uncles and cousins with single people being included in it so they did have family.

The Church has never blessed same-sex relationships. I wish I had the information refuting that at my fingertips. I had read a very long thread, some years back, on another forum where something done in the past, in the Church, was misrepresented and explained as though such blessings existed.

What our good Lord asks for, in the legitimate morality taught by the God-given authority of the Church, is possible to attain. It takes discipline, prayer, sacraments,…the same things others use to live a life where one grows in sanctity before the Lord. It is possible because with God all things are possible.

 

[Thorolfr]

What our good Lord asks for, in the legitimate morality taught by the God-given authority of the Church, is possible to attain.

Of course what God has asked for in the past has sometimes been pretty atrocious. For example, in Deuteronomy 22:28:29:

28 If a man meets a virgin who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are caught in the act, 29 the man who lay with her shall give fifty shekels of silver to the young woman’s father, and she shall become his wife. Because he violated her he shall not be permitted to divorce her as long as he lives.

So here is God saying that a woman who is raped must marry her rapist. That doesn’t seem very moral.

 

[D0UBTFIRE]

I’ve had out of town guests so I put this on the back burner. But thanks to everyone who participated in the discussion. I’ve read through and there are a lot of good points and food for thought.

I’ve also been reading on spiritualfriendship.org which I found helpful in terms of shedding some light on this issue.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Of course what God has asked for in the past has sometimes been pretty atrocious. For example, in Deuteronomy 22:28:29:

28 If a man meets a virgin who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are caught in the act, 29 the man who lay with her shall give fifty shekels of silver to the young woman’s father, and she shall become his wife. Because he violated her he shall not be permitted to divorce her as long as he lives.

So here is God saying that a woman who is raped must marry her rapist. That doesn’t seem very moral.

That’s because you aren’t getting the context. Jewish law permitted a man to divorce a wife for ‘no cause’, and that usually meant the woman would be literally out on the street. But in the case of rape the man must now spend the rest of his life PROTECTING this woman. He can’t put her aside. In essence, he spends the rest of his life making up to her for the initial wrong.

And please remember that because right now in some parts of the Western World in AD 2015 certain segments of society believe that marriage is all about ‘love’ doesn’t mean that everybody in all times and societies will do so. Love and respect should ideally be an important part of any marriage, but isn’t there a rather large portion of the ‘formerly married’ in our world today who went all starry-eyed and 'I’ll love this person FOREVER" into their marriage, only to divorce, with loathing, the ‘love of their lives’ when ‘love’ just ‘wasn’t THERE anymore?’

And while I never followed soaps, I know I read up recently about one of them, I think General Hospital, where like 30 years ago there was a huge story arc about this guy who raped a woman, fell in love with her, and SHE WITH HIM, and they were married. . . so it’s not as though apparently rape (at least in Hollyweird) automatically means that people cannot fall in love in SPITE of that action, at any rate.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

The Church has never blessed same-sex relationships. I wish I had the information refuting that at my fingertips. I had read a very long thread, some years back, on another forum where something done in the past, in the Church, was misrepresented and explained as though such blessings existed.

What our good Lord asks for, in the legitimate morality taught by the God-given authority of the Church, is possible to attain. It takes discipline, prayer, sacraments,…the same things others use to live a life where one grows in sanctity before the Lord. It is possible because with God all things are possible.

The Church has never blessed same sex marriages, but that isn’t what I am talking about.

Read this article

 

[Dorothy]

The Church has never blessed same sex marriages, but that isn’t what I am talking about.

Read this article

Thank you for that link. I read a good portion of the article after I saw and remembered the name John Boswell. That was the name mentioned in a forum discussion that I read many years ago. The person who was trying to “prove” that the Church had performed homosexual unions, was using the John Boswell argument (an argument with no real foundation) to back up his statements.

Another person came into the discussion and clearly pointed out that it was a ceremony of uniting two persons in a brotherhood, such as the link you provided of the ceremony of the two women.

 

[D0UBTFIRE]

Just another thought I had on this topic…

I ultimately feel that Christianity’s condemnation of homosexuality leads to self hate and despair in people who experience same sex attractions, which then puts them at higher risk of suicide. Therefor, in my gut I am convinced the Church is wrong on this. It leaves me in a predicament because I do believe in the idea of authority - but I can’t let my belief trump what I’m seeing as a matter of common sense and mental health. So, I can only hope the Church is in fact wrong on this. That somehow it will all be reconciled in the (near?) future.

I do pray that God leads me to believe what is true, whether or not that is what I believe right now. But I can’t deny what I believe - and that is that it is wrong to condemn same sex unions.

I also can’t deny that I believe in God, or in Jesus. And that I do see the Church as a vehicle of truth, an imperfect one perhaps, but still. I know, the cognitive dissonance drives me insane but for now, I’ll just have to live with it until something becomes more clear.

What else am I to do? These are the conclusions I draw if I am honest with myself.

 

[Rau]

Just another thought I had on this topic…

I ultimately feel that Christianity’s condemnation of homosexuality leads to self hate and despair in people who experience same sex attractions, which then puts them at higher risk of suicide. Therefor, in my gut I am convinced the Church is wrong on this. It leaves me in a predicament because I do believe in the idea of authority - but I can’t let my belief trump what I’m seeing as a matter of common sense and mental health. So, I can only hope the Church is in fact wrong on this. That somehow it will all be reconciled in the (near?) future.

I do pray that God leads me to believe what is true, whether or not that is what I believe right now. But I can’t deny what I believe - and that is that it is wrong to condemn same sex unions.

I also can’t deny that I believe in God, or in Jesus. And that I do see the Church as a vehicle of truth, an imperfect one perhaps, but still. I know, the cognitive dissonance drives me insane but for now, I’ll just have to live with it until something becomes more clear.

What else am I to do? These are the conclusions I draw if I am honest with myself.

What is condemned is sexual acts between persons of the same sex. The persons are not condemned by Christianity or by those truly living the Gispel. While the desire for those acts may be undeniable, and not in itself sinful, I assume you also recognise the dissonance, the incongruity, in two men (say) seeking to join their sexual organs physically.

That many suffer pain arising from the clash of their inclinations and a particular moral principle (taught by the Church and held by many of all faiths, and indeed no faiths) is not evidence that the Church teaches in error. But it does say there is work to be done to help struggling people to cope better with life.

 

[Thorolfr]

I assume you also recognise the dissonance, the incongruity, in two men (say) seeking to join their sexual organs physically.

Not even all sexual things that most straight couples do in bed just involves “joining their sexual organs.” If that’s all there was and there was no foreplay, it would be pretty boring sex.

 

[Rau]

Not even all sexual things that most straight couples do in bed just involves “joining their sexual organs.” If that’s all there was and there was no foreplay, it would be pretty boring sex.

Yes Thor, even married couples can sin. But foreplay, per se, is not sin. The point is that in the end, joining of the sexual organs is how the sexual capacity is designed to be used.

 

[Horton]

Just another thought I had on this topic…

I ultimately feel that Christianity’s condemnation of homosexuality leads to self hate and despair in people who experience same sex attractions, which then puts them at higher risk of suicide. Therefor, in my gut I am convinced the Church is wrong on this. It leaves me in a predicament because I do believe in the idea of authority - but I can’t let my belief trump what I’m seeing as a matter of common sense and mental health. So, I can only hope the Church is in fact wrong on this. That somehow it will all be reconciled in the (near?) future.

I do pray that God leads me to believe what is true, whether or not that is what I believe right now. But I can’t deny what I believe - and that is that it is wrong to condemn same sex unions.

I also can’t deny that I believe in God, or in Jesus. And that I do see the Church as a vehicle of truth, an imperfect one perhaps, but still. I know, the cognitive dissonance drives me insane but for now, I’ll just have to live with it until something becomes more clear.

What else am I to do? These are the conclusions I draw if I am honest with myself.

usccb.org/news/2015/15-103.cfm This is the statement on the SCOTUS ruling from the USCCB.

Have you heard the phrase, “hate the sin, love the sinner”? That simply is what the Catholic Church teaches. It does not “condemn” homosexuals, just the act of homosexual sex.I know gay people, I have gay friends, and I have gay relatives. I am a Christian and love all people, gay or not, but I do not condone the sexual act between gays.

I have heterosexual friends & family. I love them all but I do not condone heterosexual sex between heterosexuals outside the bonds of marriage. So if they (hetero or homosexual), engage in behavior I can’t condone do I condemn them? Never - hate the sin, love the sinner.

Does this make a little more sense to you?

 

[bobballen_18]

…
What I would like to see at the present time is less culture wars and condemnation and more listening to what gay Catholics have to say. Starting with the language. Calling them disordered is grossly inappropriate, lacks sensitivity and is the opposite of welcoming.

What I see when I look around is “gays can’t be priest”, “gays can’t adopt”, “gays need therapy”, “gays can’t be teachers at Catholic schools”, “gays can’t get health insurance for their partners”, “gays can’t get married”, “gays are disordered”, “it’s an abomination”…There’s a lot of negativity there. I’ve never seen any other sin or sinners treated like this. And the institutional church often seems to support this language and behavior towards gays, instead of speaking about compassion. I mean, yeah, I get it, the Church considers gay sex a sin, but geez, gays are people too. The lack of compassion towards gays by many in the church just really bothers me. Maybe it’s because of the culture wars that people have thought about them as an activist group with an agenda and not as persons. I don’t know. But it’s a problem.

These are human hearts we’re breaking when we call them disordered and abominations - …

OK, you said you want “gay Catholics” to speak up. Well, I don’t call myself gay, but I am a Catholic male who does struggle quite a bit with SSA, so here you go. Calling same-sex attraction, and especially homosexual activity disordered, is NOT grossly inappropriate, and the Church is NOT “breaking my heart” by calling the actions and inclinations (not the people themselves) disordered and abominations. It is simply the truth. I just don’t see the problem with calling sexual desires toward members of the same sex disordered. Come on, we as a society have been trying to change the mindset around this, but it will never change the fact that a woman and a man are sexually complementary, and that 2 men or 2 women are not sexually complementary. If we as a society were truly loving, this language would not be such a problem, because the society wouldn’t see such a big gap between stating the truth and loving people - they would be able to realize that it is possible to be charitable while gasp! still stating the truth (whether it sounds harsh or not).

Legalizing same-sex marriage, like the US did yesterday, and making same-sex attraction “normal” or “ordered”, is NOT the solution. It will only make things worse for these people. I have read a few comments about Courage and NARTH on here…I am not saying that SSA is only caused by a couple different things, but I am positive that SSA is caused by something, and the solution for those with SSA is to find out that “something”, heal any wounds that need to be healed, fix any negative and/or harmful mindset that came from that “something”, and abandon themselves to Christ. I believe that if one does that, maybe they won’t develop OSA or even experience any decrease in SSA (although I think that has happened to many people), but they can be healed and live a fulfilling, chaste life.

I’m sorry, maybe I’m just totally different from anyone else who experiences SSA, but I’m really tired of those who promote gay marriage or whatever saying that “oh, having SSA is not a problem” or something to that effect - the truth is, SSA is a problem and is not normal, and that’s something we have to deal with.

I’m all for recognizing the dignity of all human persons, and seeing Christ in everyone, including those who suffer with SSA. But there is a way to do that without in any way compromising the truth about the Church’s teachings regarding the desires being disordered and the actions being gravely wrong.

 

[D0UBTFIRE]

OK, you said you want “gay Catholics” to speak up. Well, I don’t call myself gay, but I am a Catholic male who does struggle quite a bit with SSA, so here you go. Calling same-sex attraction, and especially homosexual activity disordered, is NOT grossly inappropriate, and the Church is NOT “breaking my heart” by calling the actions and inclinations (not the people themselves) disordered and abominations. It is simply the truth. I just don’t see the problem with calling sexual desires toward members of the same sex disordered. Come on, we as a society have been trying to change the mindset around this, but it will never change the fact that a woman and a man are sexually complementary, and that 2 men or 2 women are not sexually complementary. If we as a society were truly loving, this language would not be such a problem, because the society wouldn’t see such a big gap between stating the truth and loving people - they would be able to realize that it is possible to be charitable while gasp! still stating the truth (whether it sounds harsh or not).

Legalizing same-sex marriage, like the US did yesterday, and making same-sex attraction “normal” or “ordered”, is NOT the solution. It will only make things worse for these people. I have read a few comments about Courage and NARTH on here…I am not saying that SSA is only caused by a couple different things, but I am positive that SSA is caused by something, and the solution for those with SSA is to find out that “something”, heal any wounds that need to be healed, fix any negative and/or harmful mindset that came from that “something”, and abandon themselves to Christ. I believe that if one does that, maybe they won’t develop OSA or even experience any decrease in SSA (although I think that has happened to many people), but they can be healed and live a fulfilling, chaste life.

I’m sorry, maybe I’m just totally different from anyone else who experiences SSA, but I’m really tired of those who promote gay marriage or whatever saying that “oh, having SSA is not a problem” or something to that effect - the truth is, SSA is a problem and is not normal, and that’s something we have to deal with.

I’m all for recognizing the dignity of all human persons, and seeing Christ in everyone, including those who suffer with SSA. But there is a way to do that without in any way compromising the truth about the Church’s teachings regarding the desires being disordered and the actions being gravely wrong.

Thanks for speaking up!

It’s interesting to hear your experience because it’s less common, or at least it seems so. Most LGBT people I’ve spoken with and read about, and most of the science I’ve seen on the matter indicates that it isn’t caused by “something”. That it just is. And, I believe that if it just is, then it can’t be a problem and is in fact normal. I also think it’s sad and unhealthy to convince people who have SSA that the way they are is “a problem” and “not normal”. I think this is the cause of much of the bullying that goes on in schools towards LGBT kids, and the reason for a higher suicide rate amongst LGBT youths.

So, I’m glad for you that you’ve made your peace with your SSA and your faith. But I don’t think that it’s a good approach to take with LGBT people at large. I honestly believe that reparative therapy has caused a lot of harm to many people.

 

[Thorolfr]

Legalizing same-sex marriage, like the US did yesterday, and making same-sex attraction “normal” or “ordered”, is NOT the solution. It will only make things worse for these people. I have read a few comments about Courage and NARTH on here…I am not saying that SSA is only caused by a couple different things, but I am positive that SSA is caused by something, and the solution for those with SSA is to find out that “something”, heal any wounds that need to be healed, fix any negative and/or harmful mindset that came from that “something”, and abandon themselves to Christ. I believe that if one does that, maybe they won’t develop OSA or even experience any decrease in SSA (although I think that has happened to many people), but they can be healed and live a fulfilling, chaste life.

Not all gay people think that they are broken or that their SSA is a wound that needs to be healed. Instead, many of them see it as a small but significant part of who God created them to be and they celebrate their place as a part of God’s diverse creation. Why cling to narrow notions about sexuality developed in the Middle Ages by people like Thomas Aquinas from the thinking of ancient peoples recorded in ancient texts, both those of the Ancient Israelites and Aristotle (with his emphasis on teleology)? This just puts God and what God wants for us into a tiny little box. But God is bigger than that and God does change and our human understanding changes and evolves. We don’t have to do thing the same way that they’ve always been done and think about things the same way they’ve always been thought. As God says in Revelation, “Behold, I am making all things new.”

 

[bobballen_18]

Thanks for speaking up!

It’s interesting to hear your experience because it’s less common, or at least it seems so. Most LGBT people I’ve spoken with and read about, and most of the science I’ve seen on the matter indicates that it isn’t caused by “something”. That it just is. And, I believe that if it just is, then it can’t be a problem and is in fact normal. I also think it’s sad and unhealthy to convince people who have SSA that the way they are is “a problem” and “not normal”. I think this is the cause of much of the bullying that goes on in schools towards LGBT kids, and the reason for a higher suicide rate amongst LGBT youths.

So, I’m glad for you that you’ve made your peace with your SSA and your faith. But I don’t think that it’s a good approach to take with LGBT people at large. I honestly believe that reparative therapy has caused a lot of harm to many people.

I don’t know, maybe “reparative therapy” has caused a lot of harm to people. I don’t know specifically what is meant by “reparative therapy”. I would like to clarify on that part of my last post. I think that if LGBT people were pressed and asked the correct questions, the majority of them would be able to point at at least something which could have caused the disordered attractions, if they were being honest, at least. Not that the majority of them are purposely trying to be dishonest - it’s just that due to the society’s prevailing attitude, they haven’t felt the need/been forced to honestly think about it, or prompted to think about possible causes enough.

However - regardless of whether there is an event/chain of events in every single SSA person’s gay life leading to the attractions or not - I still firmly believe that it is obvious that having SSA is disordered, and that homosexual acts are gravely wrong. It’s just the truth, and I don’t have any problem stating that.

Just FYI, my SSA was not caused by a distant father or overbearing mother or whatever NARTH and their reparative therapy theories say. I suppose it is probably in some way related to my parents, but on the whole, I am very, very lucky to have had the parents I have, and it is not because they were bad parents.

 

[Thorolfr]

I think that if LGBT people were pressed and asked the correct questions, the majority of them would be able to point at at least something which could have caused the disordered attractions, if they were being honest, at least. Not that the majority of them are purposely trying to be dishonest - it’s just that due to the society’s prevailing attitude, they haven’t felt the need/been forced to honestly think about it, or prompted to think about possible causes enough.

Just FYI, my SSA was not caused by a distant father or overbearing mother or whatever NARTH and their reparative therapy theories say. I suppose it is probably in some way related to my parents, but on the whole, I am very, very lucky to have had the parents I have, and it is not because they were bad parents.

I can’t identify anything in my childhood that made me gay. I had great parents and was not abused or mistreated by them in any way, so the distant father/overbearing mother things does not apply to me. I had a few bullies call me a f*g and some other similar names in school but I already had same-sex attractions by this time and they recognized or picked up on the fact that I was a little different than most of the other kids. This all happened forty years ago when the prevalent attitude in society towards homosexuality was very negative, so I definitely did wonder about the causes of my SSA a lot.

 

[kozlosap]

Not all gay people think that they are broken or that their SSA is a wound that needs to be healed. Instead, many of them see it as a small but significant part of who God created them to be and they celebrate their place as a part of God’s diverse creation. Why cling to narrow notions about sexuality developed in the Middle Ages by people like Thomas Aquinas from the thinking of ancient peoples recorded in ancient texts, both those of the Ancient Israelites and Aristotle (with his emphasis on teleology)? This just puts God and what God wants for us into a tiny little box. But God is bigger than that and God does change and our human understanding changes and evolves. We don’t have to do thing the same way that they’ve always been done and think about things the same way they’ve always been thought. As God says in Revelation, “Behold, I am making all things new.”

Bravo! I wish everyone would read your thoughts in this succient and heartfelt post. The hate and fearful posts I’ve read on other websites are unreal and chilling.

 

[bobballen_18]

…But God is bigger than that and God does change and our human understanding changes and evolves…

That is false. God is unchanging. You are undoubtedly correct that individual persons’ understanding of God can certainly change and evolve, but that is not the same as saying God changes.

The Church says homosexuality is wrong because that is truth, Biblical truth at that. Not because of what Thomas Aquinas (or anyone else) said about it way back when. Truth is unchanging.

 

[Thorolfr]

That is false. God is unchanging. You are undoubtedly correct that individual persons’ understanding of God can certainly change and evolve, but that is not the same as saying God changes.

The Church says homosexuality is wrong because that is truth, Biblical truth at that. Not because of what Thomas Aquinas (or anyone else) said about it way back when. Truth is unchanging.

Why do you think that God never changes His mind about anything? There are many instances of God changing His mind in the Old Testament. For example:

Exodus 32: The Lord said to Moses, “I have seen this people, how stiff-necked they are. 10 Now let me alone, so that my wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them; and of you I will make a great nation.”

11 But Moses implored the Lord his God, and said, “O Lord, why does your wrath burn hot against your people, whom you brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that he brought them out to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from your fierce wrath; change your mind and do not bring disaster on your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, your servants, how you swore to them by your own self, saying to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants like the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have promised I will give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’” 14 And the Lord changed his mind about the disaster that he planned to bring on his people.

There are times in the Old Testament when God regrets actions He has taken such as when He brought the flood.

 

[Contarini]

Rev. LaHaye would do better sticking to writing fiction such as his Left Behind series.

Oh please no. Those books have done immense spiritual harm, not to mention their outrages against the noble art of fiction-writing.

That is not to defend Rev. LaHaye’s nonfiction works, of course

Edwin