What are Jews' biggest arguments against Jesus being the Messiah

[joe371]

Would you say everyone is capable and in fact misuses this selfishness?

I mean my 2 year old can act pretty selfishly and aggressively when someone takes her toys.

This is what sin nature is. It is a propensity to sin. An inclination to sin.

Adam and Eve were not created this way. They were created with choice but not an inclination to sin.

This is what we call original sin or sin nature.

Your posts seem to describe the same thing but you seem to want to call it differently.

Meltzerboy mentioned that it’s theoretically conceivable that a person, from birth to death, could manage to live a sin-free life, and if that is true, from his perspective (Judaism that is) then yes, I certainly understand why present-day Judaism does not believe in a sinful nature. Like I mentioned to him: For example, naturally speaking, every person, once born into this world, is predisposed to age and eventually die; it’s unavoidable. However, if one could manage to never sin, from birth to death, (unlike ageing) then that would eliminate the predisposition i.e. disprove the idea of a sinful nature. Of course none of this can be proven…Faith…

 

[meltzerboy]

Would you say everyone is capable and in fact misuses this selfishness?

I mean my 2 year old can act pretty selfishly and aggressively when someone takes her toys.

This is what sin nature is. It is a propensity to sin. An inclination to sin.

Adam and Eve were not created this way. They were created with choice but not an inclination to sin.

This is what we call original sin or sin nature.

Your posts seem to describe the same thing but you seem to want to call it differently.

Sinful nature suggests to me that that’s the whole story of our origin. But surely it cannot be thus since we are all created in the image of G-d. Further, if Adam and Eve were NOT created with this propensity to sin, as you describe it, then why did they HAVE the temptation to sin and YIELD to the temptation in the first place? Yes, we do sin; however, we are also capable of empathy, kindness, sharing, love, and so is your two-year-old. Proper socialization will enhance that inclination, but the good inclination must be within our nature to begin with.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Meltzerboy mentioned that it’s theoretically conceivable that a person, from birth to death, could manage to live a sin-free life, and if that is true, from his perspective (Judaism that is) then yes, I certainly understand why present-day Judaism does not believe in a sinful nature. Like I mentioned to him: For example, naturally speaking, every person, once born into this world, is predisposed to age and eventually die; it’s unavoidable. However, if one could manage to never sin, from birth to death, (unlike ageing) then that would eliminate the predisposition i.e. disprove the idea of a sinful nature. Of course none of this can be proven…Faith…

We’ll surely such Holy people would be well known. I mean someone that never once acted selfishly or lost their temper or lied or anything else.

If meltzerboy has examples of such people then ok.

If not, then in 5000 plus years we have no one who was able to not sin…sounds like we must have a sinful nature.

 

[joe371]

Would you say everyone is capable and in fact misuses this selfishness?

I mean my 2 year old can act pretty selfishly and aggressively when someone takes her toys.

This is what sin nature is. It is a propensity to sin. An inclination to sin.

Adam and Eve were not created this way. They were created with choice but not an inclination to sin.

This is what we call original sin or sin nature.

Your posts seem to describe the same thing but you seem to want to call it differently.

What I have learned thus far: From the perspective of present-day Judaism, Adam and Eve were created perfectly i.e. they were designed in a way that sin would not be a part of their existence. However, as per present-day Judaism, (I’m assuming), they fell from God’s grace ergo sin enters into the picture. That said, I’m assuming that Judaism, based on what meltzerboy mentioned, believes that this fall from God’s grace does not necessarily have to apply to all of Adam and Eve’s descendants if in fact there is no sinful nature i.e. there is the possibility that one of Adam and Eve’s descendants could live as Adam and Eve did prior to their fall. I hope I am not misrepresenting meltzerboy.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Sinful nature suggests to me that that’s the whole story of our origin. But surely it cannot be thus since we are all created in the image of G-d. Further, if Adam and Eve were NOT created with this propensity to sin, as you describe it, then why did they HAVE the temptation to sin and YIELD to the temptation in the first place? Yes, we do sin; however, we are also capable of empathy, kindness, sharing, love, and so is your two-year-old. Proper socialization will enhance that inclination, but the good inclination must be within our nature to begin with.

Catholicism does not say people are inherently bad. Quite the contrary.

Temptation is not sin, Jesus too was tempted. Temptation comes from the evil one and is part of life as we have free will. Without temptation there is no free will.

Temptation does not occur because of original sin. Original sin just means we are inclined to succumb to temptation .

Adam and Eve did not have this propensity to succumb to temptation. But they were able to choose right or wrong. They were able to be tempted and submit to that which they did. This is partly why their sin was so great. They knew God and truth but chose to go against him anyway.

Since that moment men have not known God the same way and more easily fall to temptation which is basically what original sin is.

 

[joe371]

Jon S;12625299]Catholicism does not say people are inherently bad. Quite the contrary.

Temptation is not sin, Jesus too was tempted. Temptation comes from the evil one and is part of life as we have free will. Without temptation there is no free will.

With temptation there is free will; without temptation there is no free will, because we will be perfectly conformed to God’s will; is that what you meant?

Since that moment men have not known God the same way and more easily fall to temptation which is basically what original sin is.

:thumbsup:Makes sense.

 

[joe371]

We’ll surely such Holy people would be well known. I mean someone that never once acted selfishly or lost their temper or lied or anything else.

If meltzerboy has examples of such people then ok.

If not, then in 5000 plus years we have no one who was able to not sin…sounds like we must have a sinful nature.

I’m sure he would say his beliefs are based on faith…I sure would like to meet that person who never sinned from his/her birth, to death. However, if it’s impossible, since the fall of Adam and Eve, for any human to remain sin-free from birth to death, then the idea of a sinful nature is not only plausible, but factual.

 

[YehoiakhinEx232]

Sinful nature suggests to me that that’s the whole story of our origin. But surely it cannot be thus since we are all created in the image of G-d. Further, if Adam and Eve were NOT created with this propensity to sin, as you describe it, then why did they HAVE the temptation to sin and YIELD to the temptation in the first place? Yes, we do sin; however, we are also capable of empathy, kindness, sharing, love, and so is your two-year-old. Proper socialization will enhance that inclination, but the good inclination must be within our nature to begin with.

What exactly is the Jewish understanding of being created in the image of God?

 

[meltzerboy]

What I have learned thus far: From the perspective of present-day Judaism, Adam and Eve were created perfectly i.e. they were designed in a way that sin would not be a part of their existence. However, as per present-day Judaism, (I’m assuming), they fell from God’s grace ergo sin enters into the picture. That said, I’m assuming that Judaism, based on what meltzerboy mentioned, believes that this fall from God’s grace does not necessarily have to apply to all of Adam and Eve’s descendants if in fact there is no sinful nature i.e. there is the possibility that one of Adam and Eve’s descendants could live as Adam and Eve did prior to their fall. I hope I am not misrepresenting meltzerboy.

No, Adam and Eve were NOT created perfectly. They were created as human beings, which means they, like us, had the capacity to do good as well as the capacity to sin. Since they had the capacity for good, having been created in G-d’s image, their nature was NOT sinful. It is true they were capable of committing sins, as they did even though they were living in the Garden of Eden and “knew” G-d; however, they were also created with the potential for behaving morally. In Judaism, we do not speak about a fall from G-d’s grace since we do not believe that G-d created Adam and Eve as perfect and we do not believe that G-d ever stopped loving Adam and Eve even when He punished them for their disobedience.

 

[meltzerboy]

What exactly is the Jewish understanding of being created in the image of God?

Being created in the image and likeness of G-d means that we are created with the internal attributes of G-d, of course on a much lesser scale, such as love, compassion, empathy, kindness, justice, and mercy. We are not created in the physical image of G-d but rather the internal image.

 

[joe371]

No, Adam and Eve were NOT created perfectly. They were created as human beings, which means they, like us, had the capacity to do good as well as the capacity to sin. Since they had the capacity for good, having been created in G-d’s image, their nature was NOT sinful. It is true they were capable of committing sins, as they did even though they were living in the Garden of Eden and “knew” G-d; however, they were also created with the potential for behaving morally. In Judaism, we do not speak about a fall from G-d’s grace since we do not believe that G-d created Adam and Eve as perfect and we do not believe that G-d ever stopped loving Adam and Eve even when He punished them for their disobedience.

God did not create Adam and Eve perfectly i.e. they were not like the angels (perfectly holy) when they were first created i.e. they were not perfectly conformed to God’s will, upon taking their first breath?

 

[meltzerboy]

God did not create Adam and Eve perfectly i.e. they were not like the angels (perfectly holy) when they were first created i.e. they were not perfectly conformed to God’s will, upon taking their first breath?

That is correct. But we also believe that the fact G-d created Adam and Eve with a free will to choose right or wrong means that G-d loved them (and us) even more than He loves the angels whom He created without that free will. I realize Catholics believe that HaSatan and the other angels do have free will, but that is a complex topic for another thread.

 

[joe371]

That is correct. But we also believe that the fact G-d created Adam and Eve with a free will to choose right or wrong means that G-d loved them (and us) even more than He loves the angels whom He created without that free will. I realize Catholics believe that HaSatan and the other angels do have free will, but that is a complex topic for another thread.

I think I understand: God created imperfect humans, (in view of the fact that they were never perfectly conformed to God’s will), and endowed them with free will to do good or bad i.e. the human race (Adam and Eve) never fell from God’s perfect grace because they never had it to begin with?

That said: if the angels never had free will then it stands to reason that there would be no fallen angels such as Satan, in hell i.e. their will was always in sync with the will of God? Humans however, could be in hell because they have free will?

 

[meltzerboy]

I think I understand: God created imperfect humans, (in view of the fact that they were never perfectly conformed to God’s will), and endowed them with free will to do good or bad i.e. the human race (Adam and Eve) never fell from God’s perfect grace because they never had it to begin with?

That said: if the angels never had free will then it stands to reason that there would be no fallen angels such as Satan, in hell i.e. their will was always in sync with the will of God? Humans however, could be in hell because they have free will?

And Jews do not believe in fallen angels such as Satan. IOW, the latter is NOT fallen but merely does the “dirty work” that G-d directs him to do, namely, that of severely tempting and accusing humans to test their free will in the service of G-d. I think you’ve got it now!

 

[YehoiakhinEx232]

And Jews do not believe in fallen angels such as Satan. IOW, the latter is NOT fallen but merely does the “dirty work” that G-d directs him to do, namely, that of severely tempting and accusing humans to test their free will in the service of G-d. I think you’ve got it now!

What is the Jewish doctrine on a personal God? Because a lot of the stuff I’m hearing point to a distant, impersonal God.

 

[meltzerboy]

What is the Jewish doctrine on a personal God? Because a lot of the stuff I’m hearing point to a distant, impersonal God.

Judaism believes in a personal G-d, One Who profoundly cares about and loves each and every one of us and all His non-human creatures as well.

 

[YehoiakhinEx232]

Sinful nature suggests to me that that’s the whole story of our origin. But surely it cannot be thus since we are all created in the image of G-d. Further, if Adam and Eve were NOT created with this propensity to sin, as you describe it, then why did they HAVE the temptation to sin and YIELD to the temptation in the first place? Yes, we do sin; however, we are also capable of empathy, kindness, sharing, love, and so is your two-year-old. Proper socialization will enhance that inclination, but the good inclination must be within our nature to begin with.

Okay my internet starting to get really slow so I won’t able to get back to you until tomorrow morning, but want to ask you two questions before my internet dies:

1. What is the Jewish understanding of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil how did it change the nature of Adam and Eve?
2. What is the Jewish understanding of addiction, that is not doing something evil of your own free will but doing something you know is wrong and don’t want to do but doing it anyways?

 

[joe371]

And Jews do not believe in fallen angels such as Satan. IOW, the latter is NOT fallen but merely does the “dirty work” that G-d directs him to do, namely, that of severely tempting and accusing humans to test their free will in the service of G-d. I think you’ve got it now!

:yup:I did not know any of this about Judaism.

 

[GFresa9]

Why does the Messiah have to be a political human figure vulnerable to humanity’s sinful nature? And What is the Jewish interpretation of Isaiah’s Servant of the LORD? What are the Jews biggest arguments and objections to Jesus

The Moshiach has to have certain requirements that are (sorry to say) impossible for Jesus to uphold: the pedigree, G-d’s kingdom on Earth, the dead being raised, and so on. My recommendation is that you avoid attempting to convert my people. I assume this is what your end product is. Christianity hangs on a thread in the eyes of Jews. If we choose to balance ourselves on your theology, we will. The reality is that the chance of Jesus being the Moshiach is slim, but then again, so is the chance that a Jew got adopted by Egyptian royalty and later on talked to a burning bush. This is where the element of faith is applied. It’s hard to wave facts that Jesus is the Moshiach to a Jew, because with each fact is presented an uncertainty.

Sincerely,
Your Jewish Neighbor

 

[HolyCrusader007]

I wholeheartedly agree with your last statement. As to self-defense, that is most certainly permitted, and even required, in Judaism as it is in Catholicism. We are not Quakers! (I greatly admire the Society of Friends, by the way.) AFAIK Moshiach (Mashiach) is the only name for the Messiah. The Hebrew word has no connection to the English word, Savior. It should be capitalized since the Bible also speaks of messiahs with a small “m.” One of the principal missions of the Messiah according to the Hebrew Bible and the Oral Law is achieving peace among the nations under G-d.

Hi Meltzerboy

Thanks for the informative response.