What are Protestant concerns with the sacrament of confession?

[Flopfoot]

Syele, this post was from a completely different thread (on a different topic - prayer), but it might help a little in the thing being discussed here. A Saint explains that doing something because you know it’s good and right even when you don’t want to do it, can be better than doing something that’s good and right that you want to do.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1539329&postcount=11

 

[LilyM]

Have you ever gone more than a day without brushing your teeth? Try it and the idea just may thrill you a bit more. Sometimes you have to lose something before you know how good it is. I missed brushing mine for more than a day once, you get an awful fuzzy film over your teeth and bad breath to boot. No one wants you to talk to them cause they don’t want to see or smell your mouth. I can sure tell you the idea of a good tooth brushing thrilled me by the time I got home from camping and got a new toothbrush and it felt REALLY good to get all that gunk off me!

Funny, Confession to God is like that too, At first you might have been unthinking about your sin, then it creates this fuzzy awful feeling because you realize you are seperated from God- The God you are used to being Close to and personal with. You life starts falling apart because you relied on God for everything before. Now you are seperated. Then you confess and repent and God forgives you and you feel clean again! You are close to your Creator again. Life starts running more smoothly. Am I thrilled about it! Yes!!!

I hope that you guys come off the way you do because it’s the internet and not because you have no passion for God, but I hear a bunch of things like : You do it because you know it’s right but not really because you like it. You have to have punishment of penance (Which BTW is often being thankful or praying). you meditate on your sorrow after you’ve already been forgiven. You are told how and when to pray.

Where is the Passion for God? Even when I attended Mass for so long, everything always seemed rote, habit. Do this, genuflect here, kneel there, Hold your arms like this but not like that, say the correct words in response to the correct statement. What happened to tearing your clothes and throwing yourself on your face before God and weeping because you wronged Him and you heart is BROKEN? What happened to realizing that God is merciful and forgiving towards you? I mean really realizing it to the point where if you be quiet and still the rocks would cry out? I don’t do those things to get riled up, but how can you not get excited about God’s Love and God’s Promises? How can you go through life doing things just because you generally know that it’s a good and right thing to do? I refuse to live gernerally. God wants ALL of my heart soul and Strength not for me to go about doing things only because I think they are generally right. I do them becasue I LOVE God and to not do them would grieve one I deeply care about.

So you are right, I don’t get it.

And yet, in spite of all your heartrending sorrow when you’ve offended God and your heart-melting joy when you feel forgiven, you probably sin at about the same rate as I, who don’t feel quite the same highs and lows. And isn’t THAT ultimately the point of confession - the ‘go and sin no more’ bit. On that score I’d say we’re about the same. The rest is fluff.

I’ve been through periods of not confessing to a priest, avoided it for about ten years in fact. That comfort, security, and yes, joy (read any of the posts by people who’ve just had a good Catholic confession) given by confessing to a priest is a gift worth far more to me than anything I got out of going your way and confessing privately. For starters, your experience is only half the story. What kind of experiences do you think bring a Catholic INTO the confessional in the first place?? I’d venture to say a lot of us have felt similarly to you at different times. But that’s only the first step on the road for us.

God knows what he’s doing when he graciously lets us hear with absolute assurance, through the mouth of the priest and in accordance with his promises to the Apostles, that we have been forgiven. And that is something I need, crave and genuinely love. Wouldn’t trade it for the world or ever go back to doing without it.

 

[Mommyof02green]

Re-establishing habits is good, I just don’t understand why it is that you need a priest to order you to do it. If you are truly repentant you should desire to be back in the habit of loving God so intently that you do it without anyone having to tell you to.

**As a protestant I have to disagree with the other part of that statement… do penance is not going to repair the harm done. **even the repentant soul cannot do anything to repair the Harm other than to love God. The real punishment for sin is death. Jesus did that for us.

The harm done is separation from God! Remember you earlier said:

If penance for you is not about being punished but about ** repairing** your separation from God, then I have no objection.

I don’t know what to think, earlier you say that if it’s about repairing your separation from God then great. However, now you are saying there is nothing you can do to "repair” that.

We know and totally believe that Jesus death atoned for our sins.
However, we know that we have to have a real and active relationship with God, in order for it to work.

 

[Mommyof02green]

**Re-establishing habits is good, I just don’t understand why it is that you need a priest to order you to do it. **If you are truly repentant you should desire to be back in the habit of loving God so intently that you do it without anyone having to tell you to.

As a protestant I have to disagree with the other part of that statement… do penance is not going to repair the harm done. even the repentant soul cannot do anything to repair the Harm other than to love God. The real punishment for sin is death. Jesus did that for us.

That’s fine! There are many Catholics, especially young ones that don’t understand why??? Here is a web link to a Q and A.

Q: Why do Catholics confess their sins to a priest, rather than going directly to God?

The A: see the web-link: biblechristiansociety.com/2min_apologetics.php?id=12

God Bless

 

[Mommyof02green]

Where is the Passion for God? Even when I attended Mass for so long, everything always seemed rote, habit. Do this, genuflect here, kneel there, Hold your arms like this but not like that, say the correct words in response to the correct statement.

Yes, sometimes you have to ask where is the passion for God??

I’ve been to Non-Catholic Churches where they sit and watch a huge projection screen. They watch some guy give a talk, and then they break off in their little groups and drink coffee, and discuss what the saw on the “projection screen” or anything else they want. I have to ask where is the passion for God???

I’ve been to other Catholic Churches where the people in the pew do not sing, do not do anything but follow the motions. I have to ask where is the passion for God???

I’ve been to other Non-Catholic Churches where they have a service similar to the Mass. The people in the pew just go through the motions. I have to ask where is the passion for God???

**Where is the passion for God??? **
This is a “problem” not for only the Catholic Church, but for Christianity as a whole!! :crying:

There are several places through out the world Catholic and Non-Catholic that have great passion for God; personally I would like to think that my home parish is one of them.

However just as there are these wonderful places there are others that seem to be missing all that passion.

The problem is not with the kneeling here; standing there, say this prayer here. **The problem is with the people in the pew. ** There are many, many Christians Catholic and Non-Catholic a like that only put on God on Sunday Morning. They treat God as if He is an article of clothing, something “nice” that you put on, but when you are done you remove it. :banghead:

They don’t keep God in mind in their day-to-day activities. They don’t keep God in mind when voting. They don’t keep God in mind when they do anything. It’s a very sad state of affairs!

Then there are others that are so FIRE up that they don’t get it when other don’t get it. They are so FIRE up that they come across as pushy and having lack of compassion.

I hope that I haven’t come across as pushy or having lack of compassion. Your right “internet” is a hard place to communicate. You can’t pick up on people’s emotion, facial expressions, and moods. :yup: Words are only half of the communication; emotions and expressions are the other half.

 

[mercygate]

Mommyof02green, I started off saying I value prayer with confession, I just objected to it being considered punishment or being “forced”.

I think that the prayer instead should be considered part of yur relationship with God and not some concequence for being bad.

If penance for you is not about being punished but about repairing your seperation from God, then I have no objection. I think prayer is WONDERFUL when you have sinned and are repentant! I just can’t see it as a good way to punish a person.

You make a very important point, and I am sure that nobody would disagree with you. In fact, this observation reminded me that in the Catholic world, prayer and penance are always coupled. Penance is not always seen as punishment. Prayer is always a positive act toward a positive good. A person who has a big conversion, sells all his possessions, and joins the Franciscans to dedicate his life to serving the poor in “penance” is not embracing a life of punishment but a life of love.

Almsgiving is “penance.” Acts of charity are “penance.” For one who loves, these things are pure joy. Yet for one who has truly not repented, they might very well be seen as “punishment.”

For one who loves in perfect penitence, even the painful consequences of his own sinful actions can become pure joy. I knew a man suffering from AIDS, who acquired the disease through his own headlong folly, who suffered with perfect grace and in perfect penance and died in perfect joy.

So you are right: positive acts, such as prayer, are pure joy, not punishment. They DO build our relationship with God. We sometimes call this Sacrament “reconciliation.”

Thanks for the point of departure, Syele!

 

[He_Man]

Re-establishing habits is good, I just don’t understand why it is that you need a priest to order you to do it. If you are truly repentant you should desire to be back in the habit of loving God so intently that you do it without anyone having to tell you to.

As a protestant I have to disagree with the other part of that statement… do penance is not going to repair the harm done. even the repentant soul cannot do anything to repair the Harm other than to love God. The real punishment for sin is death. Jesus did that for us.

Syele, I would ask again, why do you need to go to a minister or Priest to be married? And why for Baptism? And why do they even present themselves at Sunday services? If I can go straight to God, then so be it.

And why should I attend at all on Sunday’ if I can go straight to God, then I will, regardless of latitude and longitude?

I don’t see how there is a difference?

 

[He_Man]

I suppose the snarky answer is that neither baptism nor marriage requires a priest. Thus, they don’t have so much of a beef with those two.

But the real answer is, “I don’t know.” Perhaps it is the difference between witnessing something that is by nature a public sort of thing and messing with something that is by nature (for them) a private thing. Both baptism and marriage obviously relate to the community for a typical non-Catholic. Maybe they don’t see that with confession. That is just a vague guess.

Okay you British folk, did I use “snarky” correctly in a sentence? Or is my case hopeless?

That is my point though. Every Protestant I know (which is not to say every Protestant) gets married by a minister, and has their child baptised by one. Take Priest out of it. To my knowledge, they (the couple) don’t marry themselves without a minister. Even in the case of a “friend with a valid license” doing the ceremony, there is always someone else. Why? Just go straight to God, correct? Why should we the couple need to go through someone else? Then we can baptize our child ourselves, and should I fall ill, will bless myself as well.

It makes little sense.

 

[mercygate]

Re-establishing habits is good,** I just don’t understand why it is that you need a priest to order you to do it.** If you are truly repentant you should desire to be back in the habit of loving God so intently that you do it without anyone having to tell you to.

I’m sure the Scriptural foundations have all been run through on this thread before, but remember John 20:20-23? Jesus breathed on the 10 and committed to them the power to forgive sins through the power of the Holy Spirit. This is the very first thing Jesus did on the very day of his resurrection.

When Protestants quibble that “only God forgives sins,” I agree with them 100%! But it is also true, as we see in Mt 9:8, that God has given the authority to forgive sins “to men.” I also ask if they think Jesus leaves the room when we confess to a priest.

I would challenge those who say that going “directly to God” is the same thing as sacramental confession, to follow the advice in the letter of James and confess their sins to one another. I mean, if it’s the “same” then why not do what the Bible specifically enjoins?

It is believed that special graces are conferred upon the Priest when hearing confessions. This is not just a theological construct. Here’s an anecdote:

I work in a place that has a chaplain, who sometimes acts like a perfect ditz. He gets flustered and distracted, and hardly ever shows up where he’s supposed to be, when he’s supposed to be there. (That’s because he has a pastoral heart and won’t leave a patient when he feels the patient needs him.) Anyway, I was about to undertake a project that required all my spiritual integrity, and I NEEDED to go to confession first. My regular priest was going to be away for 3 weeks. So I paged Fr. Ditz and said: Yo! Fr. Ditz! Purple stole (that’s the little vestment priests wear when they hear confessions). My office. 2:00 p.m. BE here!" He showed up on time, and I knelt beside him to make my confession. When it came time for the counseling portion of the rite, the most AMAZING wisdom came out of his mouth. I was thinking to myself, “Who ARE you, and WHAT have you done with Fr. Ditz?” It was truly one of the most blessed confessions of my life. My jolly little friend disappeared and the BOSS stepped in and took his place.

OK. That doesn’t happen every time, but it happens more often than not. So, not in theological terms, but in personal and pastoral terms, THAT is one of the reasons we need a priest to do it.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Part 2

From Syele: Re-establishing habits is good, I just don’t understand why it is that you need a priest to order you to do it. If you are truly repentant you should desire to be back in the habit of loving God so intently that you do it without anyone having to tell you to.

Finally, we are getting to the real issue. Its about the use of the Priest by Christ. A full explanation would exceed the room allowed by CAF. Here are a couple of short excerpts from the Catechism that might explain the Catholic teaching (my insert is in bold).

1462 Forgiveness of sins in the context of the Sacramentbrings reconciliation with God, but also with the Church. Since ancient times the bishop, visible head of a particular Church, has thus rightfully been considered to be the one who principally has the power and ministry of reconciliation: he is the moderator of the penitential discipline. Priests, his collaborators, exercise it to the extent that they have received the commission either from their bishop (or religious superior) or the Pope, according to the law of the Church.

1465 When he celebrates the sacrament of Penance, the priest is fulfilling the ministry of the Good Shepherd who seeks the lost sheep, of the Good Samaritan who binds up wounds, of the Father who awaits the prodigal son and welcomes him on his return, and of the just and impartial judge whose judgment is both just and merciful. The priest is the sign and the instrument of God’s merciful love for the sinner.

From Seyle: As a protestant I have to disagree with the other part of that statement… do penance is not going to repair the harm done. even the repentant soul cannot do anything to repair the Harm other than to love God. The real punishment for sin is death. Jesus did that for us.

There are two points here for which you don’t quite understand the Catholic teaching. First, the Church looks at sin as both an offense against God but also His body the church (church meaning all Christians). The good I do lifts up the entire church and the bad I do stains the entire church. Penance (exterior penance as in fasting, prayer, and sacrifice) is a gift God gives us to make the temporal effects against the church to be made right. Second, as I said in another thread, exterior penance is the means for us to conform our body and mind to that of our heart and spirit.

From Syele: I hope that you guys come off the way you do because it’s the internet and not because you have no passion for God, but I hear a bunch of things like : You do it because you know it’s right but not really because you like it. You have to have punishment of penance (Which BTW is often being thankful or praying). you meditate on your sorrow after you’ve already been forgiven. You are told how and when to pray.

It is not the fault of the internet. We are trying to explain something clearly and concisely about why we do what we do. If it was just rote habit, it would be an abuse. I don’t know where you live but if you live in a city where there is a Catholic Church that has daily confession. Go there sometime and just prayerfully observe the people who stop by during the day and watch the anguish in their hearts as they do their examination of conscience and then watch them walk down the street afterward. You will see the passion, love, gratitude, and peace.

Additionally, you again referred to penance as punshishment. This is a blatant misrepresentation of penance. If you continue to assert this, it becomes a lie and you are doing so with full knowledge. While you may still not “get” confession, you must quit asserting this. It really borders on the ridiculous. Think about it. I have committed a grave sin against my perfect Lord who loves me perfectly and to whom I owe everything. But for the mercy of God paid by the passion and death of Christ, a single sin warrants eternal damnation. But I know Christ has come and died for ME. I know He accepts my sincere petition for forgiveness because of His infinite mercy. And you think we believe that the “punishment” of 10 Hail Mary’s and 10 Our Fathers is some final step to get absolved?

 

[Orionthehunter]

Mommyof02green, I started off saying I value prayer with confession, I just objected to it being considered punishment or being “forced”.

I think that the prayer instead should be considered part of yur relationship with God and not some concequence for being bad.

If penance for you is not about being punished but about repairing your seperation from God, then I have no objection. I think prayer is WONDERFUL when you have sinned and are repentant! I just can’t see it as a good way to punish a person.

Penance in teh Catholic Church is not punishment. I explained this to you several posts ago. There is absolutely no relationship between penance and punishment. The difference between the two is infinite.

This thread is about Protestant concerns about sacramental reconciliation. You are objecting to something that doesn’t exist. Allegorically, it would be like in a discussion about the dangers of airplanes saying “I object to people who drive their planes from home to work on the city streets.”

From Syele:1. I did wrong
2. I confess I did wrong
3. I’m forgiven
4. I feel sorrow for what I did/
Isn’t that backwards?

Sorrow for offending God should be meditated on BEFORE you repent and ask for forgiveness. AFTER you should be thanking God for His mercies.

It is meditated on before confession. Prior to making a confession, most people spend 15-60 minutes doing an examination of conscience where they try to recall all they have done to offend God since their last confession. Let me tell you that time leading up to confession is the more emotionally taxing as you examine your heart against God’s expectations for you. The sorrow is palpable. Entering the Confessional is like going to the shower. You can’t wait to get the **** off you.

See Part 2 Below

 

[Orionthehunter]

Syele:

I don’t want to come off as so clinical and without passion as this is an issue that is dear to my heart. Mercygate, I just read you last post and I apologize if my story distracts from your great story about Fr. Ditz.

I can drive home after work and in reflection of the day, talk to God about what I did wrong and ask for forgiveness. My most common regret is related to not asking His guidance before I undertook an activity that I ended up not handling well. By the time I get home, I know God has forgiven me.

During the Offeratory, I try to reflect on the bigger items I did or didn’t do during the week and offer them up on the altar during Communion even though they had early been forgiven when we prayed the Confiteur. It is gratifying during the Sign of Peace that my fellow worshippers turn to me and express in their role as Christ on earth that my earlier prayer for forgiveness has been granted.

But, for those more serious sins where my heart aches because I know their gravity, it is sometimes hard to accept in my heart that I’m really forgiven even though my mind says it is so. Not once when the Priest gives me the prayer of absolution have I felt or thought that the Priest was forgiving me but all I have ever felt was the fullness of Christ washing these sins from my soul. It is this complete removal of the conflict between my heart and mind that gives me Peace, a peace that only can come direct from Christ.

It is euphoric. And not because I’m forgiven. But Christ’s love becomes very real to me. Our sin diminishes the love of God that we feel (the Love itself is still perfect and unconditional but our ability to experience it is diminished). Absolution restores us. And Confession gives us the personal direct physical and spiritual experience.

Private (direct to God) confession deals with the spiritual. But God made us more than like angels (only spirit beings) but also with a body, mind and will that is distinct (but part of the seemless whole) from our spiritual component. To have all of our components experience forgiveness is where the Peace is most perfected and complete.

Frankly, I didn’t respond to your posts to defend confession or debate the Scriptural passages that call for a confession of sins beyond just private confession direct to God but out of sadness that so many deny themselves this free gift from Christ. If my Creator gives me a free gift out of His infinite Love and His desire for my Holiness, why would I reject it?

 

[MariaG]

I heard Father Pavone speak the Catholic Family Expo in Baltimore a few months back, and turned that around and asked “why do we need a Priest (or minister) to baptize us, marry, us, r do anything else for us?”

Why is confession selectively pulled out, while marriage, baptism and the like are not? I have not heard a good answer to that from a Protestant, or Catholic…

Re-establishing habits is good, I just don’t understand why it is that you need a priest to order you to do it. If you are truly repentant you should desire to be back in the habit of loving God so intently that you do it without anyone having to tell you to.

As a protestant I have to disagree with the other part of that statement… do penance is not going to repair the harm done. even the repentant soul cannot do anything to repair the Harm other than to love God. The real punishment for sin is death. Jesus did that for us.

Hi Syele,

Respectfully, I don’t think you yet truly understand what confession is. It is not about a priest having to tell us to get back in the habit of God.

It is about allowing God to miraculously bless us and forgive our sins. We believe that just as God chooses to heal people physically through others, He also chooses to heal us spiritually through others. God is the one who is doing the forgiving (and healing).

And this was a very good point by a previous poster. Not why do Catholics go to priests for confession, but why did Protestants stop? They believe in using clergy for marriage and baptism. But Protestants changed how things were done, not Catholics. Why single out confession other people as not even being necessary when we can see there is biblical evidence that one is supposed to confess one’s sins to another?

God Bless,
Maria

 

[JoeyWarren]

Syele said: An hour is not that long to pray, especially if you are truly very very sorry about what you did. I have wept before God in prayer for longer than that and barely noticed it go by, but then I was sincere and repentant.

for your average run of the day Christian, one hour is long. Much less 2 hours straight. Very few people have the discipline to give God and equal amount of time that they give for Movies, Primetime Television, Golf, etc.

That is why I admire and highly respect Monks and Nuns that dedicate their lives to praying from before sun up to after sun down.

 

[MrS]

I work in a place that has a chaplain, who sometimes acts like a perfect ditz. He gets flustered and distracted, and hardly ever shows up where he’s supposed to be, when he’s supposed to be there. (That’s because he has a pastoral heart and won’t leave a patient when he feels the patient needs him.) Anyway, I was about to undertake a project that required all my spiritual integrity, and I NEEDED to go to confession first. My regular priest was going to be away for 3 weeks. So I paged Fr. Ditz and said: Yo! Fr. Ditz! Purple stole (that’s the little vestment priests wear when they hear confessions). My office. 2:00 p.m. BE here!" He showed up on time, and I knelt beside him to make my confession. When it came time for the counseling portion of the rite, the most AMAZING wisdom came out of his mouth. I was thinking to myself, “Who ARE you, and WHAT have you done with Fr. Ditz?” It was truly one of the most blessed confessions of my life. My jolly little friend disappeared and the BOSS stepped in and took his place.

.

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_70.gifYo! Fr. Ditz!

starts my day with a smile… thanks

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_11_4.gifever wonder if your confessor gets wide-eyed at some of the things we tell them? I know he has probably heard it all… but still.

.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Originally Posted by Syele
Re-establishing habits is good, I just don’t understand why it is that you need a priest to order you to do it. If you are truly repentant you should desire to be back in the habit of loving God so intently that you do it without anyone having to tell you to.

As a protestant I have to disagree with the other part of that statement… do penance is not going to repair the harm done. even the repentant soul cannot do anything to repair the Harm other than to love God. The real punishment for sin is death. Jesus did that for us.

Syele, lets say that you had moment of weakness you went to the bank and robbed it. You got caught, arrested, and your picture was blasted across the news and papers and they commented about the Church you attended.

Not only have you Sinned against Jesus, but you have also sinned against Me and others that belong to your Church. I and members of the church are part of Christ’s body. What you do to me, you do to Christ, What you do to Christ you do to me.

Your crime of theft has tarnished your churches good name. The Priest forgives you on behalf of the church and not to on behalf of Jesus alone.

It have never been (since the redemptive act of Jesus ) an issue between you and Jesus. When we became part of the Body of Christ, it became an issue between You, Me, and Christ.

 

[mercygate]

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_70.gifYo! Fr. Ditz!

starts my day with a smile… thanks

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_11_4.gifever wonder if your confessor gets wide-eyed at some of the things we tell them? I know he has probably heard it all… but still.

.

When I was an Episcopalian, my poor confessor used to break the first rule of “the box” (even though we didn’t use a box). Every now and then he would say: “You did WHAT???”

 

[GKC]

I think that it depends on what Non-Catholic Church you are talking about, and who you are talking too.

There are some Non-Catholic Churches that do “confessions”, however to them it IS NOT a Sacrament, therefore it’s hardly talked about.

Not true for most Anglicans, esp. of the high-church/Anglo-Catholic variety. Our priest posts the hours he will be hearing confession, puts out pamphlets on how to make a good confession, in the narthex, and makes it a frequent topic in sermons.

And as I have posted before, Anglo-Catholics, and other flavors of Anglicans, affirm all seven sacraments.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

 

[mercygate]

Not true for most Anglicans, esp. of the high-church/Anglo-Catholic variety. Our priest posts the hours he will be hearing confession, puts out pamphlets on how to make a good confession, in the narthex, and makes it a frequent topic in sermons.

And as I have posted before, Anglo-Catholics, and other flavors of Anglicans, affirm all seven sacraments.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

Agreed, GK. When I was an Anglican, I would not have gone NEAR confession if I did not see it as a sacrament!

 

[Mommyof02green]

Not true for most Anglicans, esp. of the high-church/Anglo-Catholic variety. Our priest posts the hours he will be hearing confession, puts out pamphlets on how to make a good confession, in the narthex, and makes it a frequent topic in sermons.

And as I have posted before, Anglo-Catholics, and other flavors of Anglicans, affirm all seven sacraments.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

Okay!

So my statement should of read: That some Non-Catholic Churches have confessions to a “pastor/priest/minister”. Some view it as a “sacrament” however others “do not”. Some talk about it, others don’t… However, they all have a slightly different view then Catholics.