What are Protestant concerns with the sacrament of confession?

[vince2paul]

Actually, Life Church has a website where the people can write their confession. =p Ask me if you want to web, coz I don’t know whether I could post it here or else do some google research.

 

[GKC]

Okay!

So my statement should of read: That some Non-Catholic Churches have confessions to a “pastor/priest/minister”. Some view it as a “sacrament” however others “do not”. Some talk about it, others don’t… However, they all have a slightly different view then Catholics.

Fair enough, that, in so far as individual, auricular confession before receiving is not the norm among Anglicans, though not unknown.

Of course, then I would say that I’m not a non-Catholic, but a non-Roman Catholic, and we’d wrestle all over the thread, losing sight of the original question.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

 

[GKC]

Agreed, GK. When I was an Anglican, I would not have gone NEAR confession if I did not see it as a sacrament!

Even so. Or if one didn’t hold that orders were sacramental (and that Anglican ones were valid).

GKC

 

[mercygate]

Even so. Or if one didn’t hold that orders were sacramental (and that Anglican ones were valid).

GKC

When I was an Anglican, I did hold that Anglican Orders were both sacramental and valid.

 

[GKC]

When I was an Anglican, I did hold that Anglican Orders were both sacramental and valid.

Yep. That’s the way to do it.

GKC

 

[Syele]

"Orionthehunter:

Penance in teh Catholic Church is not punishment. I explained this to you several posts ago. There is absolutely no relationship between penance and punishment. *The difference between the two is infinite. *

This thread is about Protestant concerns about sacramental reconciliation.* You are objecting to something that doesn’t exist.*

I didn’t have the idea it was punishment before I ever entered this thread. I didn’t pull it out of thin air.

Penitence: Mom and Dad pay for the replacement window, but make the child do some extra chores around the house to make up the cost of the window.

Penitence: Child is ground for 1 week, no phone time, no email time, no PC time, no going out.

Pentence: We are told to “pray”. We are told to “talk” to God and rebuild our relationship with HIM. The closer you are to God the less will sin.

jemfinch:

The penance serves as temporal punishment for sin.

JoeyWarren:

The next time your daughter disobeys you,* try this out for punishment* for her and you together:

Make her sit there a pray OUT LOUD for ONE WHOLE HOUR and you follow suit.

You will definitely have a different outlook on prayer as punishment.

Gee, I wonder where I got the weird idea that penance is punishment???

I don’t deny confession, I agree that Confession and God’s forgiveness are a gift from God. I had no issues in this thread until people started equating getting right with God as punishment. So then I complain about that and then it’s decided that I don’t understand Confession at all because I think penance is punishment. That is what is being said here! Ask ANY kid if being grounded for a week is a punishment or not! the two have been equated.

 

[Mommyof02green]

Fair enough, that, in so far as individual, auricular confession before receiving is not the norm among Anglicans, though not unknown.

Well thanks for the vocabulary lesson! I had to look up the word “auricular”. I’m assuming when you say “receiving” you are referring to “receiving” the Eucharist (Communion/Last Supper). You can correct me if I’m wrong.

Of course, then I would say that I’m not a non-Catholic, but a non-Roman Catholic, and we’d wrestle all over the thread, losing sight of the original question.

GKC Anglicanus Catholicus

Personally I don’t care to wrestles over it! However, I respect your point of view, and understand where you are coming from. You’re right, that is for another thread!!

Take Care and God Bless
Mommyof02green

 

[Mommyof02green]

I didn’t have the idea it was punishment before I ever entered this thread. I didn’t pull it out of thin air. Gee, I wonder where I got the weird idea that penance is punishment???

I must say it is a litte unfair to put my quotes from post #25 here, when in post #35 and on I have tried to “clear-up” what I had said.

I have tried to explained it better and I have tried to explained how it is NOT punishment!

God Bless!

 

[GKC]

Well thanks for the vocabulary lesson! I had to look up the word “auricular”. I’m assuming when you say “receiving” you are referring to “receiving” the Eucharist (Communion/Last Supper). You can correct me if I’m wrong.

You are correct, receiving the Body and Blood, at Mass.

Personally I don’t care to wrestles over it! However, I respect your point of view, and understand where you are coming from. You’re right, that is for another thread!!

Take Care and God Bless
Mommyof02green

Thank you , ma’am.

GKC

 

[Orionthehunter]

I didn’t have the idea it was punishment before I ever entered this thread. I didn’t pull it out of thin air.

Gee, I wonder where I got the weird idea that penance is punishment???

I don’t deny confession, I agree that Confession and God’s forgiveness are a gift from God. I had no issues in this thread until people started equating getting right with God as punishment. So then I complain about that and then it’s decided that I don’t understand Confession at all because I think penance is punishment. That is what is being said here! Ask ANY kid if being grounded for a week is a punishment or not! the two have been equated.

Go to the Catechism of the Church and read 1430-1439. Not once is it described or implied as punishment. It all focuses on interior penance which is a conversion of heart or external penance which are outward expressions of that what has happened internally. This is what the Church teaches. Just as many Protestant’s mispeak what you believe, so do individual Catholics.

Now to the points you misinterpreted as I don’t think they materially misrepresented teaching, if they did at all.

Mommyof2green making the kids pay for the window they broke: Catholics don’t consider restitution as punishment but an act of rectifying it and expressing that their sorrow is real. Do you consider restitution punishment?

Mommyof2green grounding and removing from the TV: I can’t imagine that one would recieve this as penance but allegorically the relationship between parent and child is similar to our relationship with God. If the sinner is really sorry, they would not object if a legitimate authority said that you need to express your sorrow by abstaining from these things you enjoy. To grasp this point, you really have to grasp the Catholic teaching on penance (internal conversion and external expression of it). Penance is not punishment. Upon reviewing the posts, the first reference to this was you Syele. Can you point to the post where grounding was referenced by Mommyof2green?

Mommyof2green discussion about we are told to pray and talk to God etc. What Christian would consider the admonition to pray and talk to God as punishment?

Jemfinch calling penance temporal punishment. I think she mispoke and should ahve said temporal restitution.

And then Joey’s comment. He was using irony. He was trying to show how your calling penance of saying prayer is punishment is ridiculous. I suggest you read what he said again.

 

[Mommyof02green]

Thank you , ma’am. GKC

You’re Welcome!

 

[Syele]

And yet, in spite of all your heartrending sorrow when you’ve offended God and your heart-melting joy when you feel forgiven, you probably sin at about the same rate as I, who don’t feel quite the same highs and lows. And isn’t THAT ultimately the point of confession - the ‘go and sin no more’ bit. On that score I’d say we’re about the same. The rest is fluff.

I may still sin again but not generally in the same way. If I had heart rending sorrow and followed it by sinning again the same way, I’m not doing something right in this who process. God offers freedom from the slavery of sin, that is something to be excited about. If you feel that people who are excited about God are just fluff then maybe you need to consider the awesomeness of God a bit more. I don’t feel those ways EVERY time is sin, but i found that when I am less remoseful, I get less healing as well and it is harder to “go and sin no more”. It’s not harder because I didn’t cry, it’s harder because when you are so remorseful that you are weeping you have generally given up the hold the sin had on you in the first place.

I’ve been through periods of not confessing to a priest, avoided it for about ten years in fact. That comfort, security, and yes, joy (read any of the posts by people who’ve just had a good Catholic confession) given by confessing to a priest is a gift worth far more to me than anything I got out of going your way and confessing privately. For starters, your experience is only half the story. What kind of experiences do you think bring a Catholic INTO the confessional in the first place?? I’d venture to say a lot of us have felt similarly to you at different times. But that’s only the first step on the road for us.

God knows what he’s doing when he graciously lets us hear with absolute assurance, through the mouth of the priest and in accordance with his promises to the Apostles, that we have been forgiven. And that is something I need, crave and genuinely love. Wouldn’t trade it for the world or ever go back to doing without it.

I’m not against Confession. I’m glad you get so much out of it.

 

[Mommyof02green]

Upon reviewing the posts, the first reference to this was you Syele. Can you point to the post where grounding was referenced by Mommyof2green?

She got it from post #25

However, if you read post #35, you will see that I tried to “clear-up” the misunderstanding. I have done nothing but tried to “clear” it up since then.

In post #35 I even say:

I used the examples of being out late, or breaking a window to show that there is something more then just seeking forgiveness, and that there is a step past saying, “I’m sorry” and “I forgive you”.

So the point of “penance” (I typed penitence earlier, that was a mistake) is to get right back on the horse and have that “communication” with God. It’s so that we don’t punish ourselves and trick ourselves into thinking we need to “avoid” God for a couple of days.

In post #68 I tried to show how it’s similar to having your kids pray at different times of the day. And how praying at those times are Not punishment…such as mealtime etc.

In post #71 I called it a “spiritual ER” not a courtroom.

In post #72 I explained what I meant by “spiritual ER”

In post #73 I reaffirm that it was NOT punishment.

In post #83 I said that it was “repairing” your communication with God.

Well have a good day, Orionthehunter.
God Bless

Mommyof02green

 

[jmcrae]

I may still sin again but not generally in the same way.

It’s the same for me, when I go to Confession. Each time I go, I grow a bit more.

As a convert from Protestantism, I’m finding that I’m growing a lot faster, with having a priest there to help me figure out how to avoid the near occasion of sin, and how to relate to people in a more loving way, even those that I don’t like very much. These are not things I would have ever figured out, praying by myself.

My last Penance was to read the entire Sermon on the Mount. Not because I was terribly “bad” but because my Confessor thinks I’m ready for the next level, and he thinks that rereading the Sermon on the Mount will nurture my soul to be able to receive the graces that are coming in my next level of spiritual development.

Sainthood, here I come!! :dancing: (Well - as soon as I get this “pride” thing sorted out. )

It is also worth noting that the greatest Saints went to Confession at least once a week, and in some cases, every day. Not because they were committing murder or doing something terrible every day or every week, but because Confession is the fastest way to grow in holiness - which is what we all need to be striving for.

 

[Syele]

You guys don’t understand a word I’m saying and are convinced I don’t understand you.

Mommyof2green, I’m sorry I misunderstood you even after you tried to explain. The other posters I quoted backed up what I saw from what you wrote, Then I was accused of making up the whole Idea when I did not. How was I to explain where I got the idea without quoting your post?

I was not the first person to bring this up. Mommyof2green answered Steadfast about it first and I said it shouldn’t be punishment. Now every agrees that it shouldn’t be punishment but I’m still supposedly SO wrong?? The whole point was to say that it shouldn’t be PUNISHMENT. Then you all now say you didn’t mean that. And you agree with me but somehow, I’m still wrong about this??

 

[Syele]

It’s the same for me, when I go to Confession. Each time I go, I grow a bit more.

As a convert from Protestantism, I’m finding that I’m growing a lot faster, with having a priest there to help me figure out how to avoid the near occasion of sin, and how to relate to people in a more loving way, even those that I don’t like very much. These are not things I would have ever figured out, praying by myself.

My last Penance was to read the entire Sermon on the Mount. Not because I was terribly “bad” but because my Confessor thinks I’m ready for the next level, and he thinks that rereading the Sermon on the Mount will nurture my soul to be able to receive the graces that are coming in my next level of spiritual development.

Sainthood, here I come!! :dancing: (Well - as soon as I get this “pride” thing sorted out. )

It is also worth noting that the greatest Saints went to Confession at least once a week, and in some cases, every day. Not because they were committing murder or doing something terrible every day or every week, but because Confession is the fastest way to grow in holiness - which is what we all need to be striving for.

 

[Mommyof02green]

Mommyof2green, I’m sorry I misunderstood you even after you tried to explain.

It happens to the best of us! I like forums, but at times I hate them. There at time can be 12 different conversations going on, and it’s hard to keep it all straight.

Someone said something, others run with it thinking they understand, and before you know it things snowballs and nobody knows anything!

The other posters I quoted backed up what I saw from what you wrote, Then I was accused of making up the whole Idea when I did not. How was I to explain where I got the idea without quoting your post?

I’m not sure! I know that some ‘ran’ with it! I understand your frustration However, in all fairness things should be taken in context, and in post #35 I tired to explain it better. I tried to explain what I meant.

I was not the first person to bring this up. Mommyof2green answered Steadfast about it first and I said it shouldn’t be punishment.

See what I mean about 12 different conversations. I’m answering Steadfast; you chime in with a comment how it shouldn’t be punishment. Before I can respond back to make clearer my point, other have made theirs… and it just snowballs into other things.

Then you all now say you didn’t mean that. And you agree with me but somehow, I’m still wrong about this??

Well this frustration is probably similar to mine own. Here I have tried to show how it’s “NOT” punishment, but got quoted as saying it is punishment! I truly felt like that everything I said past post #25 didn’t matter.

Well Syele, have a good day!
God Bless.

Mommyof02green

 

[Orionthehunter]

You guys don’t understand a word I’m saying and are convinced I don’t understand you.

Mommyof2green, I’m sorry I misunderstood you even after you tried to explain. The other posters I quoted backed up what I saw from what you wrote, Then I was accused of making up the whole Idea when I did not. How was I to explain where I got the idea without quoting your post?

I was not the first person to bring this up. Mommyof2green answered Steadfast about it first and I said it shouldn’t be punishment. Now every agrees that it shouldn’t be punishment but I’m still supposedly SO wrong?? The whole point was to say that it shouldn’t be PUNISHMENT. Then you all now say you didn’t mean that. And you agree with me but somehow, I’m still wrong about this??

Maybe we just need to step back. One thing we need to get out of our minds is the idea (no matter where it came from) that penance is punishment. This not what the Church teaches.

 

[Mommyof02green]

Maybe we just need to step back. One thing we need to get out of our minds is the idea (no matter where it came from) that penance is punishment. This not what the Church teaches.

Right Syele???

After all people can get it wrong and make mistakes, have misunderstandings! What matters here is what does The Church teaches. It teaches that penance is NOT punishment.

 

[Syele]

Well this frustration is probably similar to mine own. Here I have tried to show how it’s “NOT” punishment, but got quoted as saying it is punishment! I truly felt like that everything I said past post #25 didn’t matter.

Well Syele, have a good day!
God Bless.

Mommyof02green

I think our frustration is very much the same. I’m sorry too that in defending myself it ignored your explaination, you are correct in how it snowballed. I hope you great day too. When I said I hoped it was all a misunderstanding because of the internet, I meant it. I’m glad we all just misunderstood one another, because otherwise we’d all be disagreeing alot more than we are!

To Joey Warren: If I sin against the Church as well as God I would hope that my reconciliation with the church would be something public, not simply a prayer to God in private or something else private. We should reconcile with those we wronged not only in our hearts but to those we wronged.

MariaG:

Hi Syele,

Respectfully, I don’t think you yet truly understand what confession is. It is not about a priest having to tell us to get back in the habit of God.

It is about allowing God to miraculously bless us and forgive our sins. We believe that just as God chooses to heal people physically through others, He also chooses to heal us spiritually through others. God is the one who is doing the forgiving (and healing).

And this was a very good point by a previous poster. Not why do Catholics go to priests for confession, but why did Protestants stop? They believe in using clergy for marriage and baptism. But Protestants changed how things were done, not Catholics. Why single out confession other people as not even being necessary when we can see there is biblical evidence that one is supposed to confess one’s sins to another?

God Bless,
Maria

I never thought Catholics only go to confession to have a priest tell them to get back in the habit of God. I didn’t mean to imply that I did. (I’m going to chalk it up to the slew of misunderstandings in this thread. ) I saw a pattern of people trying to explain and I felt very sad suddenly that seemed to show lack of Passion for what confession is really about.

As for clergy… at churches I have attended have always allowed non-clergy to do baptisms and even (more rarely) marriages. Really though I don’t have any intense desire to Baptize other people and am perfectly happy allowing my Pastor to do it instead. I think that is the attitude of other chuch members as well most of time. I do have a friend that was married in the church by her father. And I know of many people Baptized by non-clergy. The priesthood of all believers concept allows this. Confession is not different than marriage and Baptism in this area. I CAN confess directly to God, To my Pastor, or to another Christian. Protestants are most likely to look at the list and choose to confess to God first. They generally trust their pastor most so they’d go to him as a second Choice to God.