What are some of the main reasons that people are attracted to the Protestant faith?

[dronald]

Okay – you said it was not proper, but then added “there’s nothing wrong with it.”

A bit of unsolicited advice: You might consider improving the manner in which you express your thoughts. There seems to be a deficiency; but, hey, there’s nothing wrong with that…so, no offense!

It’s fine; if you feel my words are convoluted in some way feel free to let me know and I’ll explain.

The context of what I said had a poster saying that the Church worships in a way that stays outside of today’s culture. I then responded that the Catholic way of worship is not the “proper” way; the reason for the quotations is that Catholics often say it’s the “proper” way. I then made sure I clarified that it is one way however and there’s nothing wrong with it.

Essentially my point is that there are many ways to worship and to say the Catholic way is the proper way amongst others is wrong.

 

[PRmerger]

then, to me, logic dictates that the true number, at a minimum, necessarily must be in the tens of thousands.

That’s what I’m sayin’.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Catholic style of worship is actually a by product of an old culture and not the “proper” way to worship, although it is one way and there’s nothing wrong with it.

John 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

I don’t know of any other way more proper and scriptural way of worship…

Introductory Rites:

Sign of the Cross:
“In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” (Matt 28:19; cf. John 14:13-14; Acts 2:21)

Liturgical Greeting:
“The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all.” (2 Cor 13:14)
“Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ” (Phil 1:2; Eph 1:2)
“The Lord be with you.” (2 Tim 4:22; cf. Matt 1:23; 28:20)

People’s Response:
“And with your spirit” (cf. Gal 6:18; 2 Tim 4:22)

Rite of Blessing and Sprinkling Holy Water (see Ezek 36:25; cf. Num 8:7a)

Penitential Act:
Intro: “Let us acknowledge our sins, and so prepare ourselves to celebrate the sacred mysteries.” (cf. Ps 51:5)
“I confess to almighty God…” (cf. Lev 5:5; Neh 1:5-9; Dan 9:3-19; James 5:16)
“Have mercy on us, O Lord. / For we have sinned against you. / Show us, O Lord, your mercy. / And grant us your salvation.” (Ps 41:4)
“Lord, Have Mercy” (Matt 15:22; 17:15; 20:30-31; cf. Ps 123:3)

Gloria:
“Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to people of good will” (Luke 2:14; cf. Rev 4:11; 5:11-14)
“We praise you, we bless you, we adore you, we glorify you…” (Cf. Ps 148:13)
“Lord Jesus Christ, Only Begotten Son” (cf. Ps 2:7; John 1:14)
“Lord God, Lamb of God, Son of the Father, you take away the sins of the world…” (cf.
John 1:29)etc.
Prayers concluded by “Amen” (Neh 8:6; Ps 41:13; Rom 16:27; Heb 13:20-21; Rev 7:16)

Liturgy of the Word:

Introductory/Concluding Dialogues:
“A reading from the book/letter of…”
“The Word of the Lord” (1 Peter 1:25) - “Thanks be to God” (Rom 6:17; 2 Cor 9:15)
“A reading from the holy Gospel according to…” - “Glory to you, O Lord”
“The Gospel of the Lord” (Rom 16:25; Mark 1:1) - “Praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ”

Acclamations before the Gospel:
“Alleluia” (many Psalms, esp. Ps 146-150; Rev 19:1-6)
“Praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ, King of endless glory!” (cf. Ps 24:7-10; 1 Thess 2:12; 2 Tim 4:18)
“Praise and honor to you, Lord Jesus Christ!” (cf. Dan 4:34, 37; 1 Peter 1:7)
“Glory and praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ!” (cf. Phil 1:11)

Profession of Faith:
“I believe…” (Mark 9:24; John 11:27; cf. John 14:1; 1 John 5:10)

General Intercessions:
“We pray to the Lord” (Exod 8:29-30; 10:17-18; Jer 42:2-4; Acts 8:22-24)
“Lord, hear our prayer” (2 Kings 20:2-5; Isa 38:2-5)

Liturgy of the Eucharist:

Preparation of the Gifts:
“Blessed are you, Lord God of all creation…” (cf. 1 Chron 29:10; Ps 72:18-19; 119:10; Luke 1:68)
"Blessed be God forever. " (cf. Gen 14:20; Ps 66:20; 68:35)

Eucharistic Acclamations:
“Holy, Holy, Holy Lord God of hosts…” (Isa 6:3; Rev 4:8)
“Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.” (Ps 118:26; Mark 11:9; Matt 21:9; Luke 19:38; John 12:13)
“Hosanna in the highest” (Mark 11:10; Matt 21:9; cf. Luke 19:38)

Words of Institution: (see Mark 14:22-24; Matt 26:26-28; cf. Luke 22:17-20; 1 Cor 11:23-25)
“Take this, all of you, and eat of it, for this is my Body, which will be given up for you” (a combination of Mark 14:22; Matt 26:26; Luke 22:19; 1 Cor 11:24)
“Take this, all of you, and drink from it, for this is the chalice of my Blood, the Blood of the new and eternal covenant, which will be poured out for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins.” (a combination of Mark 14:24; Matt 26:27b-28; cf. Luke 22:17, 20; 1 Cor 11:25)
“Do this in remembrance of me” (only Luke 22:19; 1 Cor 11:24a, 25b)

Memorial Acclamations:
“We proclaim your Death, O Lord, and profess your Resurrection until you come again.” (cf. 1 Cor 16:22)
“When we eat this Bread and drink this Cup, we proclaim your Death, O Lord, until you come again.” (cf. 1 Cor 11:26)
“Save us, Savior of the world, for by your Cross and Resurrection you have set us free.” (cf. Matt 8:25; Luke 4:42; Rom 8:21)

Lord’s Prayer:
“Our Father in heaven…” (Matt 6:9-13; cf. Luke 11:2-4; Mark 14:36; Gal 4:6)

Embolism: “Deliver us, Lord, we pray, from every evil… as we await the blessed hope and the coming of our Saviour, Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13)

Doxology: “For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours…”
(found only in some biblical manuscripts after Matt 6:13; cf. Rev 4:11; 11:15; 1 Chron 29:11)

Greeting of Peace:
“Lord Jesus Christ, you said to your apostles, ‘I leave you peace, my peace I give you’” (John 14:27)
“The peace of the Lord be with you always.” (cf. John 16:33; 20:19, 21, 26)

Breaking of the Bread:
“Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world…” (cf. John 1:29, 36; Rev 5:6-13; 22:1-3)

Preparation before Communion:
“Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who takes away the sins of the world. Blessed are those called to the supper of the Lamb.” (John 1:29, 36; Rev 19:9)
“Lord, I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.” (Matt 8:8; cf. Luke 7:1-10)

Concluding Rite:
Final Blessing (cf. Gen 28:3; Deut 14:29; Num 6:23-27; Ps 29:11)

Dismissal:
“Go forth, the Mass is ended.”
“Go and announce the Gospel of the Lord.” (cf. Mark 16:15)
“Go in peace, glorifying the Lord by your life.” (cf. Ps 115:1; 1 Cor 10:31; 2 Thess 1:12)
“Go in peace.” (cf. Exod 4:18; Deut 10:11-13; Judg 18:6; 1 Sam 1:17; Mark 5:34; Luke 7:50; 8:48)

And how [exactly] is the Catholic style of worship not [proper]?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Continued from previous post:

The whole Mass is Scriptural. And it’s not proper!!!

Credit for the above:
catholic-resources.org/Bible/Biblical-Mass-Texts.htm

 

[Novocastrian]

John 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

I don’t know of any other way more proper and scriptural way of worship…

Introductory Rites:

Sign of the Cross:
“In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” (Matt 28:19; cf. John 14:13-14; Acts 2:21)

Liturgical Greeting:
“The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all.” (2 Cor 13:14)
“Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ” (Phil 1:2; Eph 1:2)
“The Lord be with you.” (2 Tim 4:22; cf. Matt 1:23; 28:20)

People’s Response:
“And with your spirit” (cf. Gal 6:18; 2 Tim 4:22)

Rite of Blessing and Sprinkling Holy Water (see Ezek 36:25; cf. Num 8:7a)

Penitential Act:
Intro: “Let us acknowledge our sins, and so prepare ourselves to celebrate the sacred mysteries.” (cf. Ps 51:5)
“I confess to almighty God…” (cf. Lev 5:5; Neh 1:5-9; Dan 9:3-19; James 5:16)
“Have mercy on us, O Lord. / For we have sinned against you. / Show us, O Lord, your mercy. / And grant us your salvation.” (Ps 41:4)
“Lord, Have Mercy” (Matt 15:22; 17:15; 20:30-31; cf. Ps 123:3)

Gloria:
“Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to people of good will” (Luke 2:14; cf. Rev 4:11; 5:11-14)
“We praise you, we bless you, we adore you, we glorify you…” (Cf. Ps 148:13)
“Lord Jesus Christ, Only Begotten Son” (cf. Ps 2:7; John 1:14)
“Lord God, Lamb of God, Son of the Father, you take away the sins of the world…” (cf.
John 1:29)etc.
Prayers concluded by “Amen” (Neh 8:6; Ps 41:13; Rom 16:27; Heb 13:20-21; Rev 7:16)

Liturgy of the Word:

Introductory/Concluding Dialogues:
“A reading from the book/letter of…”
“The Word of the Lord” (1 Peter 1:25) - “Thanks be to God” (Rom 6:17; 2 Cor 9:15)
“A reading from the holy Gospel according to…” - “Glory to you, O Lord”
“The Gospel of the Lord” (Rom 16:25; Mark 1:1) - “Praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ”

Acclamations before the Gospel:
“Alleluia” (many Psalms, esp. Ps 146-150; Rev 19:1-6)
“Praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ, King of endless glory!” (cf. Ps 24:7-10; 1 Thess 2:12; 2 Tim 4:18)
“Praise and honor to you, Lord Jesus Christ!” (cf. Dan 4:34, 37; 1 Peter 1:7)
“Glory and praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ!” (cf. Phil 1:11)

Profession of Faith:
“I believe…” (Mark 9:24; John 11:27; cf. John 14:1; 1 John 5:10)

General Intercessions:
“We pray to the Lord” (Exod 8:29-30; 10:17-18; Jer 42:2-4; Acts 8:22-24)
“Lord, hear our prayer” (2 Kings 20:2-5; Isa 38:2-5)

Liturgy of the Eucharist:

Preparation of the Gifts:
“Blessed are you, Lord God of all creation…” (cf. 1 Chron 29:10; Ps 72:18-19; 119:10; Luke 1:68)
"Blessed be God forever. " (cf. Gen 14:20; Ps 66:20; 68:35)

Eucharistic Acclamations:
“Holy, Holy, Holy Lord God of hosts…” (Isa 6:3; Rev 4:8)
“Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.” (Ps 118:26; Mark 11:9; Matt 21:9; Luke 19:38; John 12:13)
“Hosanna in the highest” (Mark 11:10; Matt 21:9; cf. Luke 19:38)

Words of Institution: (see Mark 14:22-24; Matt 26:26-28; cf. Luke 22:17-20; 1 Cor 11:23-25)
“Take this, all of you, and eat of it, for this is my Body, which will be given up for you” (a combination of Mark 14:22; Matt 26:26; Luke 22:19; 1 Cor 11:24)
“Take this, all of you, and drink from it, for this is the chalice of my Blood, the Blood of the new and eternal covenant, which will be poured out for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins.” (a combination of Mark 14:24; Matt 26:27b-28; cf. Luke 22:17, 20; 1 Cor 11:25)
“Do this in remembrance of me” (only Luke 22:19; 1 Cor 11:24a, 25b)

Memorial Acclamations:
“We proclaim your Death, O Lord, and profess your Resurrection until you come again.” (cf. 1 Cor 16:22)
“When we eat this Bread and drink this Cup, we proclaim your Death, O Lord, until you come again.” (cf. 1 Cor 11:26)
“Save us, Savior of the world, for by your Cross and Resurrection you have set us free.” (cf. Matt 8:25; Luke 4:42; Rom 8:21)

Lord’s Prayer:
“Our Father in heaven…” (Matt 6:9-13; cf. Luke 11:2-4; Mark 14:36; Gal 4:6)

Embolism: “Deliver us, Lord, we pray, from every evil… as we await the blessed hope and the coming of our Saviour, Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13)

Doxology: “For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours…”
(found only in some biblical manuscripts after Matt 6:13; cf. Rev 4:11; 11:15; 1 Chron 29:11)

Greeting of Peace:
“Lord Jesus Christ, you said to your apostles, ‘I leave you peace, my peace I give you’” (John 14:27)
“The peace of the Lord be with you always.” (cf. John 16:33; 20:19, 21, 26)

Breaking of the Bread:
“Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world…” (cf. John 1:29, 36; Rev 5:6-13; 22:1-3)

Preparation before Communion:
“Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who takes away the sins of the world. Blessed are those called to the supper of the Lamb.” (John 1:29, 36; Rev 19:9)
“Lord, I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.” (Matt 8:8; cf. Luke 7:1-10)

Concluding Rite:
Final Blessing (cf. Gen 28:3; Deut 14:29; Num 6:23-27; Ps 29:11)

Dismissal:
“Go forth, the Mass is ended.”
“Go and announce the Gospel of the Lord.” (cf. Mark 16:15)
“Go in peace, glorifying the Lord by your life.” (cf. Ps 115:1; 1 Cor 10:31; 2 Thess 1:12)
“Go in peace.” (cf. Exod 4:18; Deut 10:11-13; Judg 18:6; 1 Sam 1:17; Mark 5:34; Luke 7:50; 8:48)

And how [exactly] is the Catholic style of worship not [proper]?

Amen!

 

[PRmerger]

But you are at least roughly familiar with how many steps you take, as you say. Which is the sum total of what you are estimating. So is anyone, by experience.

Yep. Exactly.

And by analogy, I am indeed roughly familiar with how many Christian denominations are in my large metropolitan area, as well as other metropolitan areas in which I have lived, as well as other areas in which I have visited.

By that I can extrapolate, from my logic, reason, experience, as well as just good ole math, how many Christian denominations there are: tens of thousands.

Which is, of course, generously conservative, because if one actually does the math (which I did indeed do way back in 2009) it would actually be over 100, 000.

Originally posted by PRmerger here: Dern! You beat me to this! I had the math problem all worked out, (courtesy of my 16 yr old daughter) using the factorial equation 17C17 and the number she came up with was a grand total of 131, 071.

Now, that of course is if we even accept that there’s really only 17 different belief systems.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes this seems we know by posts to be the prevailing reason why Catholics here believe people are attracted to Protestantism. But something is troubling me in this regard. I know of a local priest in TEC who was a RC priest prior to leaving. From my understanding he is not the only RC priest to convert to TEC. Are we to assume then a RC priest was very poorly catechized?

Well, that’s like saying: “I know of 2 people who smoked cigarettes every day and never got cancer. Are we to assume then that cigarette smoking doesn’t cause cancer?”

 

[GKC]

Yep. Exactly.

And by analogy, I am indeed roughly familiar with how many Christian denominations are in my large metropolitan area, as well as other metropolitan areas in which I have lived, as well as other areas in which I have visited.

By that I can extrapolate, from my logic, reason, experience, as well as just good ole math, how many Christian denominations there are: tens of thousands.

Which is, of course, generously conservative, because if one actually does the math (which I did indeed do way back in 2009) it would actually be over 100, 000.

Publish that, and give folks something more useful to point to than the World Christian Trends and World Christian Encyclopedia. Include your figures, and scope of research.

And define the terms.

Do this with sufficient scope and rigor and add to the sum of knowledge. Useful.

GKC

 

[PRmerger]

Publish that, and give folks something more useful to point to than the World Christian Trends and World Christian Encyclopedia. Include your figures, and scope of research.

And define the terms.

Do this with sufficient scope and rigor and add to the sum of knowledge. Useful.

GKC

This is unbecoming of you, GKC.

For the purposes of our a conversation on a discussion forum, my method is more than adequate.

And I will publish my estimation right after you publish these comments below in any academic journal.

Edward VI, though he had little to do with it, personally…

And valid intent and valid minister are also required.

The Anglican position is that *Apostolicae Curae *is mistaken, with respect to the intent of the bishops who consecrated +Parker. And remember, that is the break point.

For an exposition of the point, Fr. John J, Hughes’ two books are highly recommended: ABSOLUTELY NULL AND UTTERLY VOID and STEWARDS OF THE LORD. ABSOLUTELY NULL focuses on the history and the who did what, starting in 1890 (and who did want is surprising, interesting and sad) and STEWARDS concentrates on the theology, particularly of the Eucharistic Sacrifice, as understood in the 16th century.

Fr. Hughes is also an interesting individual. Once an Anglican priest, he was a RC priest when he wrote these two books. And he was the first Anglican priest to be ordained sub conditione, when he converted…

For the best exposition of the RC position, (then Jesuit Fr.) Francis Clark’s ANGLICAN ORDERS AND DEFECT OF INTENTION.

Believe me, I know what the theory, and the school solution is. It’s a hobby of mine. But you cannot be surprised when, as an Anglican, I have a different (and informed) opinion.

And are you sure you know what an Anglican thinks about the Eucharist, the priesthood, etc? What do you think I think?

And, finally, as always, of course you should affirm Apostolicae Curae.

Pax, frater.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

 

[GKC]

This is unbecoming of you, GKC.

For the purposes of our a conversation on a discussion forum, my method is more than adequate.

And I will publish my estimation right after you publish these comments below in any academic journal.

Seems like a perfectly unexceptional suggestion to me. You already have convinced at least one person, and if you have convincing (generally) evidence to support your numbers, it would certainly be a useful document. I wouldn’t have to say “I have no idea” any more.

As to publishing my comments, it would be plagiarism, plus some of my personal opinions. You can certainly read Fr. Hughes’ material, already in print, as is his autobiography, also interesting… Or accounts of who was steering the ship, in Edward’s day, in something like Diarmaid McCullough’s THE BOY KING.

GKC

 

[benhur]

Continued from previous post:

The whole Mass is Scriptural. And it’s not proper!!!

Credit for the above:
catholic-resources.org/Bible/Biblical-Mass-Texts.htm

This is the part I stumble at, find unscriptural or not found in the earliest church:“Pray brethren that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God the Almighty Father…May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands (the priest’s) for the praise and glory of His name”, or “We bring these gifts to you and ask that you make them holy that they may become the body and blood of our Lord”, or “We offer to you God this holy and perfect sacrifice, the bread of life and the cup of eternal salvation”, or “Look with favor on these offerings and accept them as you once accepted the gifts of your servants Abel and Abraham”

 

[PRmerger]

Seems like a perfectly unexceptional suggestion to me. You already have convinced at least one person, and if you have convincing (generally) evidence to support your numbers, it would certainly be a useful document. I wouldn’t have to say “I have no idea” any more.

As to publishing my comments, it would be plagiarism, plus some of my personal opinions. You can certainly read Fr. Hughes’ material, already in print, as is his autobiography, also interesting… Or accounts of who was steering the ship, in Edward’s day, in something like Diarmaid McCullough’s THE BOY KING.

GKC

Bye, GKC.

I don’t dialogue when it takes a turn like this.

Esp with someone of whom I wouldn’t expect.

Disappointed

 

[GKC]

Bye, GKC.

I don’t dialogue when it takes a turn like this.

Esp with someone of whom I wouldn’t expect.

Disappointed

No idea what disappointed you, but I do understand that sort of reaction, if one is.

Occasionally it happens to me, too, but not often

GKC

 

[benhur]

Publish that, and give folks something more useful to point to than the World Christian Trends and World Christian Encyclopedia. Include your figures, and scope of research.

And define the terms.

Do this with sufficient scope and rigor and add to the sum of knowledge. Useful.

GKC

Give it up. Go with the flow. Hey Luther says every man is his own pope (I think) hence how many protestants are there ? So go with millions. Two is too many for some anyway and for others three (those kinder to Orthodoxy). Being facetious matches some folks “statistics”… Seriously, it is an unfortunate and understandable stumbling block making any “crossover” truly gracious and powerful.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

This is the part I stumble at, find unscriptural or not found in the earliest church:“Pray brethren that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God the Almighty Father…May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands (the priest’s) for the praise and glory of His name”, or “We bring these gifts to you and ask that you make them holy that they may become the body and blood of our Lord”, or “We offer to you God this holy and perfect sacrifice, the bread of life and the cup of eternal salvation”, or “Look with favor on these offerings and accept them as you once accepted the gifts of your servants Abel and Abraham”

Cyril of Alexandria (313-386AD)

Cyril of Jerusalem, in his fifth and last mystagogic Catechesis, which is devoted to the consideration of the eucharistic sacrifice and the liturgical service of God, gives the following description of the eucharistic intercessions for the departed: “When the spiritual sacrifice, the unbloody service of God, is performed, we pray to God over this atoning sacrifice for the universal peace of the church, for the welfare of the world, for the emperor, for soldiers and prisoners, for the sick and afflicted, for all the poor and needy. Then we commemorate also those who sleep, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, martyrs, that God through their prayers and their intercessions may receive our prayer; and in general we pray for all who have gone from us, since we believe that it is of the greatest help to those souls for whom the prayer is offered, while the holy sacrifice, exciting a holy awe, lies before us.”

Synod at Doving, in Armenia (527 AD)
(A History of the Councils of the Church, Vol. 4)

This relation of Galanus was followed by all the older scholars, particularly by Pagi (ad ann. 535, n. 13) and Mansi (t. viii. p. 871), until the famous Armenian national history by Tschamtschean appeared at Venice in the year 1785. In the second volume of this work (p. 237 sqq., and p. 527) a very complete account of our Synod is given, and a quantity of older notices relating to it collected. It is shown that the rejection of the Council of Chalcedon in question did not proceed from this Synod, but from other Armenian Synods. So early as the year 491, at the Synod held at Walarschapat under the Catholicus Babgen, the opposition of the Armenians to the Chalcedonian faith had begun; whilst the schism was not completed until the year 596 by a later Synod at Dovin under the Catholicus Abraham. Tschamtschean also removes our Synod to the year 527, and gives us the substance of thirty-eight canons there passed:—

1. Gifts for priests must be brought into the church, and not into the house of any priest.
2. The priests must receive these gifts and presents without selfishness at the sacrifice of the Mass.
3. Church property must not be given out on interest.
4. Simony is forbidden, and a layman may not exercise ecclesiastical functions.
   And more…

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Continued from previous post:

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Ott)

1. Pre-Nicene Witnesses

A. Harnack and F. Wieland maintained that the Church of the first two centuries knew only a subjective spiritual sacrifice of praise, of thanksgiving and of adoration. It was St. Irenaeus (according to Harnack, St. Cyprian) who first substituted an objective, tangible sacrifice for the subjective sacrifice, namely, the body and blood of Christ. But it is clear from the oldest witnesses of Tradition that the Church has always seen in the Eucharist an objective gift-sacrifice. The Didache (c. 14) gives the direction: “On the day of the Lord collect together, break bread and give thanks, after having first confessed your sins, so that your sacrifice (θυσία) may be a clean one. 2. Nobody who has a dispute with his neighbour should join the assembly, until they are reconciled, so that your sacrifice may not be desecrated. 3. For this (the sacrifice), is that of which the Lord saith: In this place and at that time a clean sacrifice shall be brought to me: ‘for I am a great King, saith the Lord of Hosts, and my name is dreadful among the Gentiles’*” (Mal. 1:11, 14). The equiparation of the Eucharistic sacrifice with the sacrifice prophesied by Malachy, and the play upon the words in Mt. 5:23 et seq. (“if therefore thou offer thy gift at the altar” etc.), vouch for the fact that the Eucharist is conceived as an outward sacrificial gift.

According to St. Clement of Rome (about 96), the function of the bishops consists in the presentation of the sacrificial gifts. 1 Cor. 44:4: “It will be no small sin for us if we crush out from the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have offered the gifts.” The expression “offered the gifts” (προσφέρειν τὰ δῶρα) suggests a tangible sacrificial gift.

St. Ignatius of Antioch († about 107) indicates the sacrificial character of the Eucharist by speaking in the same context of the Eucharist and of the altar; but the altar is the place of sacrifice (θυσιαστήροιν) Philad. 4: “Be careful, therefore, to celebrate only one Eucharist; for there is only one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ and only one chalice of unification with His Blood, only one altar, as there is only one bishop with the presbyters and the deacons” Cf. Eph. 5:2.

St. Justin Martyr († about 165) sees in the wheaten meal sacrifice offered by those cured of leprosy a prototype of the Eucharist. The clean sacrifice foretold by Malachy, which will be offered everywhere, is, according to him: “the bread of the Eucharist and the chalice of the Eucharist” (Dial. 41)

But the bread of the Eucharist is, according to Apol. I 66, the flesh of Christ, and the chalice of the Eucharist is His Blood. According to Dial. 117 St. Justin appears wrongly to place on a similar level the Eucharistic sacrifice and the prayers and thanksgivings made in the celebration of the Eucharist: “That prayers and thanksgivings offered by worthy persons are alone perfect and pleasing sacrifices to God, I also maintain. For only this has been handed down by Tradition to the Christians to do.” The comment is directed against the material Jewish sacrifices. It does not exclude the possibility of the Body and Blood of Christ, together with the prayers and thanksgivings, under which they are offered, being conceived as the sacrificial gifts of the Christians.

St. Irenaeus of Lyons († about 202) teaches that the flesh and blood of Christ: “are the new sacrifices of the New Covenant which have been handed down to the Church by the Apostles, and which She, throughout the whole world, offers to God.” It is the fulfilment of the prophecy of Malachias (Adv. haer. IV 17, 5; cf. IV 18, 2 and 4).

Tertullian († after 220) designates the participation in the celebration of the Eucharist as a “standing at the altar of God” and the Holy Communion as “participation in the sacrifice” (participatio sacrificii; De orat. 19).

St. Cyprian († 258) teaches that Christ as a Priest after the order of Melchisedech “offers a sacrifice to God the Father, and indeed, the same sacrifice as Melchisedech offered, that is, bread and wine, namely, His Body and His Blood” (Ep. 63, 4). “The priest who imitates that which Christ did, truly takes the place of Christ, and offers there in the Church a true and perfect sacrifice to God the Father, when he begins to sacrifice in the same manner, as he sees, that Christ sacrificed Himself” (Ep. 63, 14).

 

[GKC]

Give it up. Go with the flow. Hey Luther says every man is his own pope (I think) hence how many protestants are there ? So go with millions. Two is too many for some anyway and for others three (those kinder to Orthodoxy). Being facetious matches some folks “statistics”… Seriously, it is an unfortunate and understandable stumbling block making any “crossover” truly gracious and powerful.

All I’m interested in (and that casually) is what the actual stats might be. So far, no idea that isn’t derived anecdotally or personally.

GKC

 

[benhur]

Cyril of Alexandria (313-386AD)

Synod at Doving, in Armenia (527 AD)
(A History of the Councils of the Church, Vol. 4)

Thank you but you are still in fourth century not first or second and Cyril’s spiritual sacrifice , was it a mystical or symbolic or literal body and blood ? Somewhere it went from a thanksgiving to an atoning "sacrifice’’. Somewhere it went what God did and offered to and for us to what we do and offer back to God. As an early father wrote, our only sacrifice is one of thanksgiving and praise. There is a reason why it is called Eucharist (Thanksgiving), and it needs no second act ( anything to follow or to be added such as re-presenting).

 

[benhur]

All I’m interested in (and that casually) is what the actual stats might be. So far, no idea that isn’t derived anecdotally or personally.

GKC

Have you read the 30000 rebuttal from Eric Svendsen ? I think on Lazyboy something or other. Can’t advertise actual site out of respect for forum guidelines. i think you intimated you have seen them cause you mentioned not plagiarizing. I got seven main goups to Catholics one. If you further define, numbers go up for both sides (Catholic and P’S).

 

[PRmerger]

Give it up. Go with the flow. Hey Luther says every man is his own pope (I think) hence how many protestants are there ? So go with millions.

That’s the most accurate statistic, I think. :sad_yes: