What are the best arguments for once saved always saved and how would you refute that idea?

[q54332]

What arguments do you think are the best that protestants use to prove this and what would be your rebuttal on why it’s not true?

 

[po18guy]

The best argument is that one is saved solely because one believes that one is saved. Circular and illogical. Contra-scriptural. At best it leads to self-deception. At worst it puts God to the test.

Against? The entire history of the Christian faith. Romans 11:22, 2 Peter 2:20-21 for but two scriptural examples (there are many more).

 

[Mishakel]

Perhaps this ideology could be better defined? As a Protestant I don’t know anyone who believes once you are born again you get to live your life how you want to. At the point of being born again is when we turn our lives over to God and live according to what Jesus and the disciples/apostles taught.

I do believe scripture tells us that it’s impossible for anyone or any spiritual power to steal away the elect. This really is rather a deep subject because it gets into God knowing who the elect were before the foundations of the world.

This is mentioned numerous times that God knew the elect, chose the elect, called the elect etc… before the world was even created.

So I would pose a question as my answer. If God chose, called, and knew who the elect were before they even existed how can anyone think one of the elect would wind up not being elect?

 

[Autocur]

The idea sort of is that you get saved (salvation being viewed as one time deal) Christ’s death is so powerful that no matter what sin you commit you are always saved because saying you’re not means that Christ wasn’t powerful enough. Like if sin can take away your salvation than Christ didn’t beat sin. This idea wasn’t one Luther held. Luther said you could loose your salvation only by not believing. I believe Methodists say grave sin can take away salvation. The idea comes from Calvin. The P in TULIP stands for “Preservation of the Saints”, and his connected to his ideas of predestination. The logic is if you are from teh beginning of the universe predestined to go to Heaven or Hell, it dosen’t make sense that God would ever change his state of looking at you as saved or unsaved.

The best argument against this would be that Ephesians 5:3-7 is really awkward if you don’t believe this
“(3)But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. (4)Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. (5)For you may be sure of this, that EVERYONE who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has NO INHERITANCE in the kingdom of Christ and God. (6)Let no one deceive you with empty words, for BECAUSE of THESE THINGS the wrath of God comes upon the osns of disobedience. (7)THEREFORE do not become PARTNERS WITH THEM”.ESV

If you believe that you cannot loose salvation why does Paul say some things bar you from Heaven and THEREFORE you shouldn’t do them? There’s quite a few verses in Hebrews to disprove OSAS but they escape me right now. There’s also a few verses that they use to prove OSAS but they also escape me right now. I just don’t remeber them being very good either. OSAS really only makes sense if you believe in Calvinist style predestination, or easy-belivism (I know I spelt that wrong). Also, quote from Augustine

“But when the child arrives at years of discretion, when he can now understand the commandments and can be subject to the rule of the Law, then he must take up the struggle against evil impulses, and fight vigorously, to avoid being led into SINS WHICH WILL BRING DAMNATION” City of God, Book 21, Chapter 16

 

[littlebird]

Then since you are always saved;

1. you get to bypass judgement day ?
2. you are not longer capable of sin ?
3. you are still capable of sin but it doesnt count anymore because you are always saved ?

 

[q54332]

How would you respond to someone that brings up Ephesians 1:13?

 

[Autocur]

Here’s the best explanation I’ve heard. If this is in fact that correct interpretation, it refutes rather than bolsters Protestantism.

We are sealed with the holy spirit of promise. That is we are marked (seal meaning stamp) by the Holy Spirit as an identification that you have been given to God (that you were baptized). Now, here’s where things get intresting. Verse 14 says that the Holy Spirit is a GUARANTEE of our salvation. Guarantee means down payment. So the Holy Spirit is God’s down payment, with the gift of eternal life coming later. Now, this sounds incredibly Protestant. They will say that if we are given a down payment and God is contractually obliged to give you the rest. It sounds silly that God wouldn’t have the funds to pay you back. But here’s the kicker. The Greek word for GUARANTEE (or EARNEST) means down payment for a good… or a SERVICE. If it’s the latter, then it means that God graciously frees you from sin so you can serve him (remember, we can’t serve God without his Grace). He gives you the Holy Spirit as a down payment for a service that you have to preform. That is, living the Christian life. If he comes back and finds that you have fullfilled your duty, he gives you the full installment (eternal life). He is under no obligation to provide the full installment to someone who did not fullfill thier end. Think of the parable of the talents in Matthew 25:14-30. The master (God) gives the servants the talents (the gracious gift of the Holy Spirit) and it’s the servants job to multiply it. Did God reward the negligent servant? No he didn’t, because the servant was given an obligation and he refused to carry it through. If I give a contractor money as a down payment to build me a house, and I come back and he dosen’t build me a house, than I am under no obligation to pay the money I promised.

Now I’m not syaing this is THE way of looking at it. I will definilty have to read some more up on this passage, but that is the way I feel you can look at it and not contradict what Paul says in Ephesians 5.

 

[q54332]

Thanks for the detailed reply

 

[littlebird]

I don’t believe that God makes deals or contracts.
I believe that you unconditionally love him or not.

 

[Autocur]

Another word for contract would be covenant. God made a covenant with Abraham.

 

[littlebird]

Sorry…I was speaking in the present tense(under NT not OT).

BTW…what did God say would happen to Abraham if he did not do as God asked ?

 

[Autocur]

In Genesis 17:1-2 God tells Abraham to walk before him and be blameless that he may make a covenant between the two of them, so that Abraham might multiply him greatly. It appears to me that if Abraham did not “walk before me and be blameless”, Abraham would have failed the covenant and God would be under no obligation to undergo his end of the deal, and would probably let Abraham die childless. He also states that there is a punishment for those that refuse to get circumsized are “cut off from the people” that is, outside of God’s blessing in verse 14.

And the Bible makes clear that God’s covenants do not end at the Old Testament. We’re in a coveanant right now. Jeremiah 31:31 states;
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new coveanant with the house of Isreal and the house of Judah”
He goes on to elaborate on this in verse 33
“For this is the coveanant that I will make with the house of Isreal after those days, decalres the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”
This part about writing the law on their hearts, is what’s going on right now. In 2 Corinthians 5:17, Paul says that;
“You, however, are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you…” Romans 8:9
The prophecy has been fulfilled, that being the prophecy of the new coveanant. Hebrews 8:7 states it fairly clearly;
“For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second”.
So right now we’re not excempt from covenant, we’re living in a greater covenant than Abraham because now the Spirit is in us in a way it wasn’t before.
Pretty neat huh

 

[littlebird]

I dont understand. So God told Abraham that if he failed the covenant that he might die childless and there may be an unspecified punishment ?

 

[HarryStotle]

Another word for contract would be covenant. God made a covenant with Abraham.

Not to be picky here, but a contract and a covenant are quite distinct.

A contract is an agreement to exchange some good or service in return for something of equal worth. That is it. It is binding to no other extent.

A covenant is a coming together of two individuals or groups to form one new entity. That is why a marriage is a covenant and not a contract in the eyes so God — the two will become one.

In the Old Testament there were a number of covenants. Each entailed a unification, a becoming one. This is why the sacrifice of an animal was carried out. It was a graphic description of what takes place when a covenant is broken. A broken covenant is akin to one creature (the sacrificial animal) being cut into two, essentially being the death of the creature. A broken covenant is the death of the one new entity that had come about through the covenant. Ancient people groups were bound together by covenants; families were bound together by covenant (often through marriage).

This is why Jesus’ actions bring about the new and everlasting covenant between God and man. God in covenant with humanity becomes united with humanity by taking on human nature. By doing this he unites humanity to his divinity.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church…

460 The Word became flesh to make us " partakers of the divine nature ": “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."

Continued…

 

[HarryStotle]

Thus he has given us, through these things, his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of lust, and may become participants of the divine nature. (2 Peter 1:4)

But again, those who assert that He was simply a mere man, begotten by Joseph, remaining in the bondage of the old disobedience, are in a state of death having been not as yet joined to the Word of God the Father, nor receiving liberty through the Son, as He does Himself declare: If the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed. John 8:36 But, being ignorant of Him who from the Virgin is Emmanuel, they are deprived of His gift, which is eternal life; Romans 6:23 and not receiving the incorruptible Word, they remain in mortal flesh, and are debtors to death, not obtaining the antidote of life. To whom the Word says, mentioning His own gift of grace: I said, You are all the sons of the Highest, and gods; but you shall die like men. He speaks undoubtedly these words to those who have not received the gift of adoption, but who despise the incarnation of the pure generation of the Word of God, defraud human nature of promotion into God, and prove themselves ungrateful to the Word of God, who became flesh for them. For it was for this end that the Word of God was made man, and He who was the Son of God became the Son of man, that man, having been taken into the Word, and receiving the adoption, might become the son of God. For by no other means could we have attained to incorruptibility and immortality, unless we had been united to incorruptibility and immortality. But how could we be joined to incorruptibility and immortality, unless, first, incorruptibility and immortality had become that which we also are, so that the corruptible might be swallowed up by incorruptibility, and the mortal by immortality, that we might receive the adoption of sons? (Irenaeus, Against Heresies; Book III, Ch 19, 1)

…that by the Word becoming man, the universal Providence has been known, and its Giver and Artificer the very Word of God. 3. For He was made man that we might be made God. (Athanasius; On the Incarnation of the Word; Para 54)

 

[Autocur]

Thank you!