What are the Catholic and Orthodox Churches doing to get unity?

[bobzills]

Not so. The pope just articulated an Eastern concept of Purgatory. It was a huge olive branch. The East has not made a similar move. Rome is working for unity. The East is balking.

However, it is not obligatory for Catholics to change their minds and adopt the Eastern concept of Purgatory. The letter of the Pope simply mentions that some theologians believe this way, but does not say that Catholics are supposed to reject what was taught before on Purgaotry or on indulgences. For example:

1. 1. The Catechism of the Catholic Church 1031 says:” "The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire….”
2. . St. Thomas Aquinas, the Prince of Theologians, says that the fire of
Purgatory is equal in intensity to the fire of Hell, and that the slightest
contact with it is more dreadful than all the possible sufferings of this
Earth!
3. According to St. Augustine: “Some believers will pass through a kind of purgatorial fire. In proportion as they loved the goods that perish with more or less devotion, they shall be more or less quickly delivered from the flames.” (Enchiridion 69, 110).
4.The book Read me or Rue it, says the following about Purgatory:
“It is a prison of fire in which nearly all [saved] souls are plunged after
death and in which they suffer the intensest pain…… there is no hunger, no thirst, no poverty, no need, no pain, no
suffering to compare with what the Souls in Purgatory endure…"

 

[XtusVictor]

However, it is not obligatory for Catholics to change their minds and adopt the Eastern concept of Purgatory. The letter of the Pope simply mentions that some theologians believe this way, but does not say that Catholics are supposed to reject what was taught before on Purgaotry or on indulgences. For example:

1. 1. The Catechism of the Catholic Church 1031 says:” "The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire….”
2. . St. Thomas Aquinas, the Prince of Theologians, says that the fire of
Purgatory is equal in intensity to the fire of Hell, and that the slightest
contact with it is more dreadful than all the possible sufferings of this
Earth!
3. According to St. Augustine: “Some believers will pass through a kind of purgatorial fire. In proportion as they loved the goods that perish with more or less devotion, they shall be more or less quickly delivered from the flames.” (Enchiridion 69, 110).
4.The book Read me or Rue it, says the following about Purgatory:
“It is a prison of fire in which nearly all [saved] souls are plunged after
death and in which they suffer the intensest pain…… there is no hunger, no thirst, no poverty, no need, no pain, no
suffering to compare with what the Souls in Purgatory endure…"

I did not say it was a change. It was a proposition. It was an olive branch. It was an opening to the East.

But, the East is welcome to reject it and go their merry way. As I have said, the pope can do every sort of thing to work toward unity but he cant do the work for the Orthodox, too. He cant do it alone. Is there anybody out there? Anybody at all?

 

[bobzills]

But, the East is welcome to reject it and go their merry way.

As I understand it, the East does not see it as a rejection on their part, since the way they see things is that they are upholding all the doctrines and teachings which were in effect when the two Churches were united. According to the Orthodox, the worship and Liturgy of the Church must be continuous with its earliest forms, and so they would not accept the innovations that we see in the Catholic Mass, such as the charismatic Mass with its handwaving and emotional outbursts, or such as the folk Mass, with the Peter, Paul and Mary folk songs, or such as the Halloween Masses, which include Eucharistic servers dressed in Satanic outfits, etc. According to the Orthodox point of view, it is really the RCC which has rejected the necessity of the liturgy to be traditional and continuous with its earliest forms, as it was before the split took place.

 

[XtusVictor]

As I understand it, the East does not see it as a rejection on their part, since the way they see things is that they are upholding all the doctrines and teachings which were in effect when the two Churches were united. According to the Orthodox, the worship and Liturgy of the Church must be continuous with its earliest forms, and so they would not accept the innovations that we see in the Catholic Mass, such as the charismatic Mass with its handwaving and emotional outbursts, or such as the folk Mass, with the Peter, Paul and Mary folk songs, or such as the Halloween Masses, which include Eucharistic servers dressed in Satanic outfits, etc. According to the Orthodox point of view, it is really the RCC which has rejected the necessity of the liturgy to be traditional and continuous with its earliest forms, as it was before the split took place.

Interesting. The East was all about doctrinal definition and development in the age of the Christological councils. Then when the majority of them went Muslim and the church divided suddenly they are opposed to doctrinal definition. Seems they only like doctrinal definition when they are doing it.

 

[XtusVictor]

the innovations that we see in the Catholic Mass, such as the charismatic Mass with its handwaving and emotional outbursts, or such as the folk Mass, with the Peter, Paul and Mary folk songs, or such as the Halloween Masses, which include Eucharistic servers dressed in Satanic outfits, etc. According to the Orthodox point of view, it is really the RCC which has rejected the necessity of the liturgy to be traditional and continuous with its earliest forms, as it was before the split took place.

this is such a gross exageration it does not merit a response. You denigrate the liturgy of the Catholic Church at your own peril.

 

[surgei]

this is such a gross exageration it does not merit a response. You denigrate the liturgy of the Catholic Church at your own peril.

And yet the Holy Father Benedict XVI asked the melkite patriarch for help on getting reverence back in the Liturgy.
Hmmmmmmmm
looks like a valid point and you ran like a little girl.

 

[bobzills]

this is such a gross exageration it does not merit a response. You denigrate the liturgy of the Catholic Church at your own peril.

So you deny the reality of charismatic Masses, folk Masses, rock and roll Masses, clown Masses, etc.? Did you need to have some pictures or would you claim that all of the pictures are forged?
This is perhaps one reason why unity between Catholics and Orthodox is proceeding very slowly. Catholics are slow to admit to what has been happening to the Catholic liturgy and that it is not in continuity with ancient Tradition as it was before the split took place.

 

[XtusVictor]

And yet the Holy Father Benedict XVI asked the melkite patriarh for help on getting reverence back in the Liturgy.
Hmmmmmmmm
looks like a valid point and you ran like a little girl.

I did not say that there werent problems. I said his depiction was an exaggeration. In fact the word exaggeration means that there was some truth in it but that truth was blown up. It is called English.

I did not run from it as you have run from the fact that the Orthodox have done nothing to promote unity. And you have run from your own words to the effect that Orthodox dont need Catholics. A decent adult retraction or rephrasing or at least acknowlegement would be a good thing to do. But I wont expect that kind of civility.

 

[XtusVictor]

So you deny the reality of charismatic Masses, folk Masses, rock and roll Masses, clown Masses, etc.? Did you need to have some pictures or would you claim that all of the pictures are forged?
This is perhaps one reason why unity between Catholics and Orthodox is proceeding very slowly. Catholics are slow to admit to what has been happening to the Catholic liturgy and that it is not in continuity with ancient Tradition as it was before the split took place.

Oh seriously. that junk happened 30 years ago. And it has been tramped around by the TLM crowd ever since as if it were going on every Sunday in every parish. It is what I said it is. It is an exaggeration. that means it is somewhat true, but blown out of proportion. Again. This is English we are speaking. Exaggeration does not mean denial.

 

[bobzills]

I did not run from it as you have run from the fact that the Orthodox have done nothing to promote unity.

I think that the Orthodox look at it differently and believe that they have done an enormous amount to promote unity by preserving the Liturgy and teachings as they were before the split, whereas, unfortunately, the RCC has introduced many innovations. And many of the innovations, such as in the liturgy, are not appreciated, even by some Catholics today, especially the Traditional ones.

 

[XtusVictor]

I think that the Orthodox look at it differently and believe that they have done an enormous amount to promote unity by preserving the Liturgy and teachings as they were before the split, whereas, unfortunately, the RCC has introduced many innovations. And many of the innovations, such as in the liturgy, are not appreciated, even by some Catholics today, especially the Traditional ones.

This is a complete non argument. The Orthodox cannot serve unity by doing nothing.

 

[surgei]

The Orthodox need for the Catholics is like unto the need of a family to have its runaway brother come home. Were the brother to die the void would endure, as would the remainder of the family.
I think bobzills is making some great points as to how the Catholics need the Orthodox. I also think that the Liturgical abuses are but a sign of the much deeper problem. I do not go so far as the august St John the Wonderworker and say that the Holy Spirit has left the Catholics. But dang you guys sure do avoid Him a whole lot. Oh, yeah thats cause you said some things that weren’t true about Him.
does any one else find it odd that in english the Holy Spirit is masculine and in almost every other language it is the oposite gender?

 

[surgei]

Oh seriously. that junk happened 30 years ago. And it has been tramped around by the TLM crowd ever since as if it were going on every Sunday in every parish. It is what I said it is. It is an exaggeration. that means it is somewhat true, but blown out of proportion. Again. This is English we are speaking. Exaggeration does not mean denial.

nope I’m 27 and have seen such things.
look at the Paulists.

 

[XtusVictor]

nope I’m 27 and have seen such things.
look at the Paulists.

I went to Bekeley. I know all about the Paulists. And they are a disgrace.The Paulists number less than 100 and their average age is over 70. They do exist and their work is horrible. But they are in no way representative of Catholic liturgy.

 

[Mar_Isaac]

I am glad that you think my participation is dialogue is good. I would go to the Orthodox church on occasion but I will not go where my priest is unwelcome. Again, the ball is in the court of the Orthodox here.

Why would either you or your Catholic priest not be welcome? Welcome as in ‘Come and See’ that is - not commune. All those who dwell outside the Church, be they Catholic or Mormon or Hindu, are welcome to Come and See the Ancient Faith celebrated in the Divine Liturgy. Just not commune. So get yourself in gear, bring your Catholic priest with you, and the both of you Come and See Holy Orthodoxy in action.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

With all respect to both my Orthodox and Catholic brethren. As a Catholic I Don’t see it as either side coming home to the other. It is my understanding it history that the Rites of the East and West Differed long the same lines before the schism as they do now. Basically the authority of Rome.

I don’t see much that can be done to erase that unless the Bishops of the East are willing to come to accept the Pope as head of the Church or the Pope give all Bishops equal authority.

As to the Liturgy and form of worship. A strong case can be made that V II did a lot to move the RCC away from the Tradition of the early Church and has created even more of a separation From to to West.

I have attended worship in an Orthodox service and found it most glorious, but i was not at home any more that i would think someone raised in the Orthodox to be at home at either a NO mass or a TLM.

The breach can be filled but both sides need to look at what we share instead of what we don’t

Peace in the Lord

Scott

 

[Mar_Isaac]

I don’t see much that can be done to erase that unless the Bishops of the East are willing to come to accept the Pope as head of the Church or the Pope give all Bishops equal authority.

The first will never happen - Christ is our Head and He needs no Viceregents, Viceroyals, or Vicars. As for the second - from the Orthodox view, the Archbishop of Rome, your ‘Pope’ has no “authority” to “give all Bishops equal authority.” The Bishop of Rome is simply that, a single bishop and cannot confer what he doesn’t have outside his own jurisdiction.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

The first will never happen - Christ is our Head and He needs no Viceregents, Viceroyals, or Vicars. As for the second - from the Orthodox view, the Archbishop of Rome, your ‘Pope’ has no “authority” to “give all Bishops equal authority.” The Bishop of Rome is simply that, a single bishop and cannot confer what he doesn’t have outside his own jurisdiction.

And so we see the problem that has been with us all these many years. It is not a mater of theology or doctrine. It all comes down to you can not tell me what to do I don’t have to listen to you. your not the boss of me.

The church as an organization ( notice small c) must have a leader. Yes each Bishop is head of his on See. That has never been the dispute. What is is the question of when it comes to the Church as a whole there has to be someone the has the last word.
A look at history also shows that the separation of the East and west came about more over politics than Religion.

Then whole thing is sad and from I pray that the divide can some day be breached.

Peacec in the Lord

Scott

 

[Mar_Isaac]

And so we see the problem that has been with us all these many years. It is not a mater of theology or doctrine.

Actually, it is. That Catholics fail to grasp this is a part of the problem.

It all comes down to you can not tell me what to do I don’t have to listen to you. your not the boss of me.

Indeed - your Uber-bishop will never be accepted nor welcomed back into the Church. Ditch your papacy and other innovations and then we can talk.

The church as an organization ( notice small c) must have a leader. Yes each Bishop is head of his on See. That has never been the dispute. What is is the question of when it comes to the Church as a whole there has to be someone the has the last word.

They already exist - they’re called bishops. And when they get out of control, synods, local, pan and ultimately ecumenical councils come into play. (Witness the outsing of the Patriarch of Jerusalem just a few short years ago.)

A look at history also shows that the separation of the East and west came about more over politics than Religion.

Agreed. The powerlust of the Archbishop of Rome is legendary in the East.

Then whole thing is sad and from I pray that the divide can some day be breached.

I used to do the same as well… After observing the debased state of your present praxis, I no longer pray for unity. Holy Orthodoxy would only be infected and profaned by the western rot endemic in Catholicism and her Protestant offspring were such ‘unity’ to come about. Thanks, but no thanks.

 

[jimmy]

I used to do the same as well… After observing the debased state of your present praxis, I no longer pray for unity. Holy Orthodoxy would only be infected and profaned by the western rot endemic in Catholicism and her Protestant offspring were such ‘unity’ to come about. Thanks, but no thanks.

Mar Isaac, we should all be praying for unity, whether you think Catholicism is currently protestantish and would be a curse on the Church. The western Catholics do not simply pray that Eastern Orthodox will join the Catholic Church as they are, they pray that the EO will accept the authority of Rome as seen in the west and that they accept the western developments. Similarly you should be praying that the west will correct its worship and if necessary bring itself into line with Orthodoxy.

Divisions within Christianity are a curse on the Church. There should be one Church and one faith. We should all be praying for the unity of Christianity because without it we will never convert the world.