What are the Catholic and Orthodox Churches doing to get unity?

[Tim_Hayes]

It amazes me that people write such drivel about how great the Orthodox are and the Catholic are not, due to external “problems”

Orthodox have been allowed to fly under the radar becasue the secular world at large considers them irrelevent and NO THREAT.

The catholic church has been the threat to secularism and as a result all manner of things have buffeted the church.

The Church is made up of people both small, large and of no faith in some cases, so those with less faith have a general tendancy to have other ideas with which they are more interested in developing.

Now that Russia is free from communism (mostly) and is now able to address the world more easily, they with the overall largest number of Orthodox will be buffeted by the same winds that the Catholic Church is, if they try to evangelise and or profess the faith more overtly.

Whilst many good things will help the Orthodox grow in number they will experience substantial change in their practices compared to what they have in the past which many will think is bad within the Orthodox.

Once the Orthodox involve themselves more in world affairs, the world will take a closer look at who they are and they will see simply a slight variation to the catholic Church, so therefor will be targetted like the catholic church, so those who are orthodox should take heed of the storms coming and remember what they talk about now because in the coming decades there will be much change/development in the Orthodox Church and in many cases such development/change will be the very things they are critical of the catholic church for doing/embracing supposedly.

 

[Mar_Isaac]

The numerous heresies infesting your church are largely internal, NOT external. You cannot possibly attribute your Zen-Catholic clerics, religious, and laity on the secular world. Same with your clap-happy dancing ‘bishops,’ coddling of clerical child-rapists, etc. The rot you tolerate originates within your fold, and within those of your Protestant offspring. It may be a bitter pill that you are likely unable to acknowledge, but Catholicism is simply one generation (if even that) behind its Anglican child.

Refrain from assigning blame outside your midst and rather
look to yourself for both the illness AND the cure.

P.S. Jimmy - good work on the EC forum. Can’t agree with you on some things but support your efforts in defending the forum from the nonsense the latins attempt to foist off you and your fellow Eastern Catholics.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Actually, it is. That Catholics fail to grasp this is a part of the problem.

Indeed - your Uber-bishop will never be accepted nor welcomed back into the Church. Ditch your papacy and other innovations and then we can talk.

They already exist - they’re called bishops. And when they get out of control, synods, local, pan and ultimately ecumenical councils come into play. (Witness the outsing of the Patriarch of Jerusalem just a few short years ago.)

Agreed. The powerlust of the Archbishop of Rome is legendary in the East.

I used to do the same as well… After observing the debased state of your present praxis, I no longer pray for unity. Holy Orthodoxy would only be infected and profaned by the western rot endemic in Catholicism and her Protestant offspring were such ‘unity’ to come about. Thanks, but no thanks.

I refuse to get into a name calling match. Or make statements that my church is better that your church. It is childish and serves no purpose other than creating animosity. I am pray that your stance is in a minority on both sides.

One thing that may help in that is if we start to look at ourselves as Christians instead of Roman Catholic or Orthodox.

Your stance seem to give the impression that If the we we Talking in the reverse order. the Papacy had been established say in Constantinople and the Western Church bishops has maintained their autonomy you would have the stance of our Bishop being stubborn in not submitting to his will. you give out a since or bigotry and from there, there is no were to go. My the Lord Christ lighten your heart…

Peace in the Lord

Scott

 

[Ridgerunner]

It might be observed, in passing, that initially, in both Rome and in early Constantinople, Latin WAS the vernacular. If unbending faithfulness to the “original” liturgical language was the objective of Christianity, both the Mass of the Latins and the Liturgy of the East, would be in Latin. Perhaps those farther East could say, with some legitimacy, that it should be Aramaic. If ancientness is the test, then the Copts would win, hands down, as their language, being essentially ancient Egyptian, is doubtless the oldest of all.

This is not to somehow criticize liturgies in Liturgical Greek, or Old Slavonic, or Arabic or any other liturgical language I might have left out. The real point I am making is that having a particular “liturgical language” is not an original practice of the Church. I do like the TLM, and I do think the use of Latin (as with other liturgical languages for those who have them) would encourage a certain historical sense of the “communion of saints” that the Mass in the vernacular cannot quite equal. But regardless, the early Church liturgies were in the vernacular of the time and place. And in Rome and early Constantinople, that vernacular language was Latin.

So, making fun of Catholicism for its use of the vernacular in the Mass is as misplaced as it would be for Greeks to disparage those in the ROC who say liturgies in modern Russian.

No one in here, Latin or Greek, knows for sure what the “charismatic” content of ancient liturgies was, always and everywhere. I am not a charismatic Catholic myself, and I’m not about to become one. But I have also seen “charismatic parishes” where the fervor and charity of the parishioners would put many TLM devotees and Greeks to shame. I have seen extremely dignified charismatic Masses. No doubt there are some that are not.

I share the disdain for “clown Masses” or whatever irreverent or silly things some have seen. But I have been to Mass in lots of places, for a lot of years, and have never seen anything remotely resembling that kind of thing. If it still exists, it’s mighty rare.

Some “Hispanic Masses” with mariachi music don’t really push my buttons, but I look around me and see a lot of very serious attentiveness and worshipfulness and reverence. I have seen African-American Masses with “Amens!” all over the place and rhythmic (and wonderful) music and very spirited sermons. And, without meaning to insult any posters here by saying it, I dare anyone to assume he or she is somehow spiritually superior to that Hispanic man holding up a picture of Jesus during Mass with tears rolling down his face, or that sweet-natured African-American lady with the wild and colorful hat or that former evangelical (and I know LOTS of those) who finally won his or her heart’s greatest desire to “Come to Jesus” in the Eucharist, at a plain-as-plain-gets Mass where the music is played on a dulcimer and/or “Southern gospel” hymns are sung.

I agree with those who believe the ICEL took a wrong turn with the liturgy in English. I also believe the Catholic Church is a self-correcting institution, and I think it’s obvious that the abuses which crept in are within 20 years of disappearing entirely. I have some inkling (though I am no expert) that we might ultimately owe some debt of gratitutde to the Anglican Use rite for some linguistic contributions in that respect. If you look at most seminarians and younger priests now, one cannot help but agree that the “felt banner-lavendar mafia” thing has not long to plague the Church.

I have seen Eastern Catholics and Orthodox on here whose faith seems stong and their charity broad and heartfelt. And to them, and to the extent Greek, or Slavonic or Arabic or Coptic or Aramaic, and those exacting liturgies are helpful to them to bring them to God, I say I would not alter one placement of one pearl on one icon, or the slightest movement in your liturgies. Nor would I disparage the mystical kind of worship that is intended to aid.

But, those EO whose faith seems to have a toxic tincture of hatred of Catholicism, may say, with pride “Well, but we didn’t have any of that innovative or wayward stuff. Abusive priests and clown Masses and such”. Boys, you have had bad stuff of your own. But like most Catholics, I am reticent to fire broadsides in the way I so often see some do on here. My own Church’s regard for Eastern Christianity and my own regard for earnest people like Volodymyr or Hesychios, (though we have disagreed about much and will likely do so again), makes me very slow to do it. Suffice it to say, and dislike it, whoever wants to; whether Latin or Greek, that dynamic organizations often have growing pains, and explore much. God knows our mistakes, and all of us require massive amounts of His forgiveness.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Closed pending Moderator review.
MF