What are the Catholics doing?

[sonichuiscool]

Howdy all! I’ll just give you a background on myself.

I was born into a moderately religious home, and came to Christ when I was in my 20s in college. I am currently working as a missionary and getting a degree in Philosophy.

My question for you all is this - what are the Catholics doing? Why aren’t there Catholic churches growing and church planting? I want to get an idea about what is being taught in the Church itself, not what the apologists are saying.

I know the next topic might be offensive to some, but I don’t mean it to be so. I am working in a Catholic country where the needs of the people are not being ministered to. I’m not like many hateful people who believe that Catholics aren’t Christian. While I disagree with Catholics, I still don’t think that they are terrible. But I see such a lack of enthusiasm among Catholics - of the millions of Catholics who surround me, only a handful attend church. Of the Catholics who make up our congregation, only two or three (out of fifty) have heard that they were sinful, or that they are saved through Christ and not through “being a good person”. It is mind-boggling for me. But I also know some very devout Catholics who worship Christ, and I know that not every Catholic is apathetic or uneducated. I just want some (name removed by moderator)ut from the people in the pews. Thanks!

 

[MercyMia]

Actually, have you been paying attention to the last 2,000 years? The Church has planted churches across the world!! We have made disciples of all nations!
Now, I understand that many who are going late to the game are eager to start “church planting” too and maybe have a different perspective. Now, some individual Catholics may be lacking enthusiasm, but God has provided for every generation of His Church and this generation will be no different. Unfortunately, in regards to church planting, we now have 33,000 + man made denominations that are competing with one another to evangelize using the Holy Bible the Catholic Church compiled and preserved, so this creates a lot of extra work for us.

 

[jmcrae]

But I see such a lack of enthusiasm among Catholics - of the millions of Catholics who surround me, only a handful attend church.

They have probably become secularized, for whatever reason. Church law itself tells us to attend Mass every Sunday and every Holy Day.

Of the Catholics who make up our congregation, only two or three (out of fifty) have heard that they were sinful, or that they are saved through Christ and not through “being a good person”.

Is this a congregation at a Catholic Church?

I find it difficult to believe that anyone who has made his First Confession would not have been made aware of his sinfulness.

 

[puzzleannie]

Howdy all! I’ll just give you a background on myself.

I was born into a moderately religious home, and came to Christ when I was in my 20s in college. I am currently working as a missionary and getting a degree in Philosophy.

My question for you all is this - what are the Catholics doing? Why aren’t there Catholic churches growing and church planting? I want to get an idea about what is being taught in the Church itself, not what the apologists are saying.

I know the next topic might be offensive to some, but I don’t mean it to be so. I am working in a Catholic country where the needs of the people are not being ministered to. I’m not like many hateful people who believe that Catholics aren’t Christian. While I disagree with Catholics, I still don’t think that they are terrible. But I see such a lack of enthusiasm among Catholics - of the millions of Catholics who surround me, only a handful attend church. Of the Catholics who make up our congregation, only two or three (out of fifty) have heard that they were sinful, or that they are saved through Christ and not through “being a good person”. It is mind-boggling for me. But I also know some very devout Catholics who worship Christ, and I know that not every Catholic is apathetic or uneducated. I just want some (name removed by moderator)ut from the people in the pews. Thanks!

which Catholics are you asking about? I assume you are asking about the Catholics within a few mile radius of where you are living and working, and for them, since you are able to observe only externals, you can have no means of judging their internal spiritual condition. You cannot possibly have personal knowledge of the faith and practice of “millions of so-called Catholics around you”.

Is this a country familiar to you, or one you have recently entered? If this is a country new to you, especially one that has historically been identified as “Catholic” I suggest you look into recent history of this country. For instance, Mexico which has been solidly Catholic for 500 years, has endured intense persecution of the Catholic Church for most of the 20th century and it is only relatively recently that priests and nuns have been allowed to even identify themselves as such and work with the people, so yes in many areas the Church is still rebuilding a presence. You will find however that even in the century or more when Mexican Catholics could not worship publicly or even receive education in the Faith, the Faith of many if not most has remained strong and vibrant, even though practiced, through necessity, only in the home, privately, until recently.

The Catholic Church worldwide is thriving and growing, especially in areas formerly considered mission territories, like Africa, in which a growing native clergy and hierarchy are flourishing. Don’t make global judgements based on a local situation, and based only on your own observations.

You have come to the right place if you want to know what the Catholic Church teaches, but just as I would not dream of making a judgment about you or your denomination based on what I have observed among a few of your members, I would expect you to use the same prudent judgment about the Catholic Church.

May I also suggest that the most challenging field for any missionary who self-identifies as Christian would be among pagans or the unchurched, rather than taking the easy way out, coming into a group of Christians of Catholic or another denomination, and instead attacking their own faith and convincing them that you–on whatever authority you claim to be working–have the only real truth.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Howdy all! I’ll just give you a background on myself.

I was born into a moderately religious home, and came to Christ when I was in my 20s in college. I am currently working as a missionary and getting a degree in Philosophy.

My question for you all is this - what are the Catholics doing? Why aren’t there Catholic churches growing and church planting? I want to get an idea about what is being taught in the Church itself, not what the apologists are saying.

I know the next topic might be offensive to some, but I don’t mean it to be so. I am working in a Catholic country where the needs of the people are not being ministered to. I’m not like many hateful people who believe that Catholics aren’t Christian. While I disagree with Catholics, I still don’t think that they are terrible. But I see such a lack of enthusiasm among Catholics - of the millions of Catholics who surround me, only a handful attend church. Of the Catholics who make up our congregation, only two or three (out of fifty) have heard that they were sinful, or that they are saved through Christ and not through “being a good person”. It is mind-boggling for me. But I also know some very devout Catholics who worship Christ, and I know that not every Catholic is apathetic or uneducated. I just want some (name removed by moderator)ut from the people in the pews. Thanks!

The Catholic Church is growing massively around the world.

In the United States, hundreds of protestant ministers have converted to Catholicism in the past 15 years or so.

In Africa, there are about 5 million new Catholics every year and the current number is over 130 million.

Where are you getting your information?

 

[Teneas]

Howdy all! I’ll just give you a background on myself.

I was born into a moderately religious home, and came to Christ when I was in my 20s in college. I am currently working as a missionary and getting a degree in Philosophy.

My question for you all is this - what are the Catholics doing? Why aren’t there Catholic churches growing and church planting? I want to get an idea about what is being taught in the Church itself, not what the apologists are saying.

I know the next topic might be offensive to some, but I don’t mean it to be so. I am working in a Catholic country where the needs of the people are not being ministered to. I’m not like many hateful people who believe that Catholics aren’t Christian. While I disagree with Catholics, I still don’t think that they are terrible. But I see such a lack of enthusiasm among Catholics - of the millions of Catholics who surround me, only a handful attend church. Of the Catholics who make up our congregation, only two or three (out of fifty) have heard that they were sinful, or that they are saved through Christ and not through “being a good person”. It is mind-boggling for me. But I also know some very devout Catholics who worship Christ, and I know that not every Catholic is apathetic or uneducated. I just want some (name removed by moderator)ut from the people in the pews. Thanks!

The apologist of our Faith are actually teaching everything that Catholics believe, and do. It isn’t easy for most other faiths to understand us of course. Evangelicals especially have a hard time with us Catholics. For the most part, we are not as outgoing, loud no offense at all meant, in your face, evangelists. We do evangelize, just not as greatly as some Protestants. Our faith is a deeply rooted faith of spirituality, and personal reflection. Unfortunately, most Catholics that go to another church and claim they were never taught that they are saved through Christ is not uncommon.

The fact of the matter is that the Catholic church is so complex, so in depth, and so inspired by Christ, that is impossible to know all there is to know of our faith. Most learn the standard reasons of why we do things as young children, but stop at that point. Children can learn basics in any faith, but never understand them fully. Unless they continue to try and learn and not simply go through the motions, then most don’t have a firm grasp of why we believe what we believe. They walk away from the Church, or simply assume there is no more to learn from it once confirmed. Both are wrong for them to do.

If they stop learning after they are confirmed, then it is merely their own fault for not questioning, asking and wondering. There is no divine knowledge that one will get from just sitting there without questioning or researching.

Those that fall away from the Church are often taken into another denomination, and when they have reached the stage of wanting to be back in a fold, they are overwhelmed and overjoyed at the intensity that most Evangelical or Protestant churches have.

So, the long and short of it is this, Catholics are doing what we have been doing for the last 2,000 years or so. We simply aren’t as outgoing about things as other, newer denominations.

If you want a list of what Catholics are doing, well here are the numbers for some of the things Catholics do for the world. There are more, and I have seen them listed here, we are out there doing what it is we are required to do.

Taken from wiki

Institutions

Parishes and missions 408,637
Primary and secondary schools 125,016
Universities 1,046
Hospitals 5,853
Orphanages 8,695
Homes for the elderly and handicapped 13,933
Dispensaries, leprosaries, nurseries and other institutions 74,936
Total 638,116

Personnel

Seminarians (men studying for the priesthood) 110,583
Religious sisters 769,142
Religious brothers 55,057
Diocesan and religious priests 405,178
Lay Ecclesial Ministers 30,632
Permanent deacons 27,824
Bishops 3,475
Archbishops 914
Cardinals 183
Pope 1
Total 1,402,989

 

[Love_is_Patient]

Howdy all! I’ll just give you a background on myself.

I was born into a moderately religious home, and came to Christ when I was in my 20s in college. I am currently working as a missionary and getting a degree in Philosophy.

My question for you all is this - what are the Catholics doing? Why aren’t there Catholic churches growing and church planting? I want to get an idea about what is being taught in the Church itself, not what the apologists are saying.

Um, if you want to know what the Catholic Church teaches, you could try reading the Catechism scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

If you want just one of many examples of Catholic evangelization work, check out this organization: christlife.org

I know the next topic might be offensive to some, but I don’t mean it to be so. I am working in a Catholic country where the needs of the people are not being ministered to. I’m not like many hateful people who believe that Catholics aren’t Christian. While I disagree with Catholics, I still don’t think that they are terrible. But I see such a lack of enthusiasm among Catholics - of the millions of Catholics who surround me, only a handful attend church. Of the Catholics who make up our congregation, only two or three (out of fifty) have heard that they were sinful, or that they are saved through Christ and not through “being a good person”. It is mind-boggling for me.

Those who didn’t know they were sinful - which boggles my mind too - apparently didn’t show up for Mass, since EVERY SINGLE SUNDAY MASS, Catholics ask God to have mercy on them and forgive their sins. Often, this prayer is part of our Liturgy:

*I confess to Almighty God and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done and in what I have failed to do. And I ask Blessed Mary, Ever-Virgin, all the angels and saints, and you my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God. *

Finally,how do you define enthusiasm? How do you know the hearts and minds of “millions of Catholics?” How familiar are you with the cultural history of the country you live in and how church and state have interacted over the past few generations?

But I also know some very devout Catholics who worship Christ, and I know that not every Catholic is apathetic or uneducated. I just want some (name removed by moderator)ut from the people in the pews. Thanks!

The Catholic Church has a billion members. It is the universal Church. We’re working on helping all members live the Catholic life to the fullest. This is quite a challenge in secularized Europe, not to mention the materialistic U.S. Africa is proving much more fruitful.

Stick around, Sonichuiscool. You might learn a thing or two about the Catholic faith that will surprise, intrigue and call to you.

Love is Patient

 

[Mrs_Mac]

Soni, since you don’t identify which country you are working in, it’s hard to answer such a general question, because all societies and cultures are different. However, generally speaking, there was somewhat of a dry spell in the state of Catholic education in the 1970’s and 1980’s following the implementation of the Vatican II reforms. In some places, in the rush to embrace an ecumenical movement, Catholics missed out on the critical message of what it means to be authentically Catholic. The Catholic Church is emerging from that period, but it is a slow process turning this big ship around.

I only hope that you will have enough respect for the Catholic Church to allow it to minister to its own people in the country in which you are serving.

God Bless.

 

[dawnmorning]

I seem to be in a strange place in my faith journey, but I wanted to address the issue of Catholics not being aware of their sinful nature or that Jesus died for their sins. I grew up in a Catholic family, and went to Catholic school, but it wasn’t until I stumbled upon a book written by an evangelical Christian pastor in college that I was aware that Jesus died for my sins. It changed my life, of course, and I couldn’t get enough evangelical Christian literature. I went to a few different churches, convinced that if I hadn’t heard the message of salvation in 20 years of Catholic influence, it wasn’t where I should be.

After a couple of years, I started going to a Catholic church again, and suddenly, the message of Jesus’ role in salvation was ALL I heard! I just don’t understand why I didn’t hear it in those exact same words a few years earlier.

I don’t pretend that there aren’t differences, and I don’t pretend to have all the answers, but I think it’s a matter of individual faith journeys. I think it’s easy to believe that if you bring your child to church and send them to school or religious ed classes, it’s enough. I think children would be better raised in faith if they were actually raised in faith, not in rule-following and Sunday morning/Wednesday night routines. Just like parents are the child’s most important teachers, they are also the child’s most important evangelists.

 

[fish90]

I seem to be in a strange place in my faith journey, but I wanted to address the issue of Catholics not being aware of their sinful nature or that Jesus died for their sins. I grew up in a Catholic family, and went to Catholic school, but it wasn’t until I stumbled upon a book written by an evangelical Christian pastor in college that I was aware that Jesus died for my sins. It changed my life, of course, and I couldn’t get enough evangelical Christian literature. I went to a few different churches, convinced that if I hadn’t heard the message of salvation in 20 years of Catholic influence, it wasn’t where I should be.

After a couple of years, I started going to a Catholic church again, and suddenly, the message of Jesus’ role in salvation was ALL I heard! I just don’t understand why I didn’t hear it in those exact same words a few years earlier.

I don’t pretend that there aren’t differences, and I don’t pretend to have all the answers, but I think it’s a matter of individual faith journeys. I think it’s easy to believe that if you bring your child to church and send them to school or religious ed classes, it’s enough. I think children would be better raised in faith if they were actually raised in faith, not in rule-following and Sunday morning/Wednesday night routines. Just like parents are the child’s most important teachers, they are also the child’s most important evangelists.

Welcome back!!!

 

[rep140]

After a couple of years, I started going to a Catholic church again, and suddenly, the message of Jesus’ role in salvation was ALL I heard! I just don’t understand why I didn’t hear it in those exact same words a few years earlier.

But I see such a lack of enthusiasm among Catholics - of the millions of Catholics who surround me, only a handful attend church.

Two good points. Regarding the first, I should give you my background. I’m a 64 year old cradle Catholic who has experienced the Latin Mass and pre Vatican 2 teaching by Catholic Sisters. I am enthusiastically Catholic and don’t think I could be without Vatican 2. Regardless of how you want to nuance the situation, there was a break from the past with V2. The good Sisters who taught me taught in no uncertain terms that if you were not Catholic you were going to hell. The apologists can say that there was no break from earlier Church teaching at V2, but that’s not what happened on the ground.

I could say that my early catechesis certainly put the emphasis on Church and not Christ. To the poster of point 1 I say wlecome to a lot better Church.

Regarding listing 2 above I can only refer to a priest I heard say that Catholics are great at sacramentalizing and lousy at evangelization. This is what you are seeing in your work.
At one time I worked for a company that was established by the original owner and it was a very good business. He died and left the business to his son who ran it into the ground.
Another person bought it before it went bankrupt and brought it back to life. I see the same with the Church. Our founder was Jesus, the Church did its best to run itself into the ground, and I see V2 as the new owner.

I’ll finish by praising the original Evangelical poster. She is doing Christ’s work.

 

[Teneas]

I seem to be in a strange place in my faith journey, but I wanted to address the issue of Catholics not being aware of their sinful nature or that Jesus died for their sins. I grew up in a Catholic family, and went to Catholic school, but it wasn’t until I stumbled upon a book written by an evangelical Christian pastor in college that I was aware that Jesus died for my sins. It changed my life, of course, and I couldn’t get enough evangelical Christian literature. I went to a few different churches, convinced that if I hadn’t heard the message of salvation in 20 years of Catholic influence, it wasn’t where I should be.

After a couple of years, I started going to a Catholic church again, and suddenly, the message of Jesus’ role in salvation was ALL I heard! I just don’t understand why I didn’t hear it in those exact same words a few years earlier.

I don’t pretend that there aren’t differences, and I don’t pretend to have all the answers, but I think it’s a matter of individual faith journeys. I think it’s easy to believe that if you bring your child to church and send them to school or religious ed classes, it’s enough. I think children would be better raised in faith if they were actually raised in faith, not in rule-following and Sunday morning/Wednesday night routines. Just like parents are the child’s most important teachers, they are also the child’s most important evangelists.

Did you continue going to the Catholic Church? I hope so, and welcome back if you did.

One thing that occurred to me in your post that was on my mind anyway, is the lack of dedication that some parents have to raising their child correctly in the faith. My wife has taught classes in the Church, and we have both seen parents that don’t even attend Mass drop their kids off to learn. As if it was only the Church’s responsibility to teach all there is to teach. Parents hold the most influence on what their children believe. If they just drop the kids off, never teach from their side, and never go to mass, well…the kids aren’t going to learn anything about faith, as their parents most likely have none.

 

[Lib_Christian]

It doesn’t matter how much is being done, there can be more done. Their needs are not being met in my view partly because Catholics are preaching issues like abortion, gays, and stem cells far more than they are preaching nowadays the righteous Jesus taught in Matt 25: Feed the hungry. Clothe the naked. Care for the sick and the prisoner.

Catholics spend a lot of money on adorning their churches. The Jesus I know, who lived simply and walked in sandals, in my faith would probably prefer the money being spent on other things. Not long ago my diocese and I presume dioceses throughout the land, were having abortion human chain lines. A parish near me did so and a block away are homeless on the streets. Rarely do I hear at Mass about these issues or even war or capital punishment. Where are the diocean sponsored chain lines for these issues? But it almost never fails that abortion is preached.

 

[rep140]

My wife has taught classes in the Church, and we have both seen parents that don’t even attend Mass drop their kids off to learn. As if it was only the Church’s responsibility to teach all there is to teach. Parents hold the most influence on what their children believe. If they just drop the kids off, never teach from their side, and never go to mass, well…the kids aren’t going to learn anything about faith, as their parents most likely have none.

My wife teaches Confirmation classes. I’d say that 80% of her kids don’t go to church because their parent’s don’t. I don’t blame them or their parents. Where have we gone wrong in teaching?

 

[Teneas]

My wife has taught classes in the Church, and we have both seen parents that don’t even attend Mass drop their kids off to learn. As if it was only the Church’s responsibility to teach all there is to teach. Parents hold the most influence on what their children believe. If they just drop the kids off, never teach from their side, and never go to mass, well…the kids aren’t going to learn anything about faith, as their parents most likely have none.

My wife teaches Confirmation classes. I’d say that 80% of her kids don’t go to church because their parent’s don’t. I don’t blame them or their parents. Where have we gone wrong in teaching?

I don’t honestly know…is something that haunts me daily. Sometimes I find comfort in the fact that I know full well that Satan will attack that which is more pure, and I believe that society doesn’t exactly help in our child’s mindsets.

There is something wrong. I still say parents play a big role however. But there are such things as Life Teen that seem to work well for the teens anyway.

 

[tbcrawford]

Hi sonichuiscool.You don’t mention which particular country you are a missionary in? The Catholic Church has so many agencies working in every third world country on the planet,that it is hard for me without further information to explain just how much The catholic Church actually does do in Missionary work.If you go to the BBC website you will find independent information regards some of the countries around the world where the Catholic Church is and has been working.I hope its helpful.Good for you also doing God’s work.How wonderful and thankyou.If you would like more detailed information about the particular country you are working in let us know and I will post information relating to that country.

My parish is supporting one of St.Vincent de Pauls Society projects in Africa.For every £35.00
English money we raise one baby is saved by vaccinations.Each week our newsletter tells us how many babies we are saving!.
On a personal level I support CAFOD by direct debit each month and have done for some time.I also Sponsor a child called Skovia (and her family) in Uganda.A friend at my parish called Rita and her deceased husband started an Orphanage in Sri Lanka,My sister sponsors a child in the Philippines.
When I was at Primary school I was priveleged to be taught by nuns from the Sisters fo Mercy
Mater Misericordea,who ran missions in Cambodia.We raised a lot of monet over the years to support their work.

The Catholic Church has many organisations within the Church that run many many missions all over the world.Also we each play our part as members of the Church.

 

[Lib_Christian]

. Where have we gone wrong in teaching?

Let me help. You’re losing me more and more by emphasising 1 or 2 issues far far more than other issues. I’m not saying you can’t emphasize abortion. But the pendulum has swung too far at the expense of the Gospel message to care for the poor, hungry, sick. Other issues such as war and the death penalty. When I go to Mass and I am told to vote for George W Bush, I know there’s a problem. When i hear abortion at every Mass but often nothing about these other issues, I know there’s a problem. When my local church invests in marble altar flooring and other material trappings, I know there’s a problem. When a hierarchy covers up the sins of priests, moves them from parish to parish, and the laity look the other way and simply chalk it up to human nature, I know there’s a problem. Top that with little tolerance for conscience and people with views like Bill Donahue being spokesman, you get to the point where you don’t even feel like going. Hope that helps.

 

[jmcrae]

It doesn’t matter how much is being done, there can be more done. Their needs are not being met in my view partly because Catholics are preaching issues like abortion, gays, and stem cells far more than they are preaching nowadays the righteous Jesus taught in Matt 25: Feed the hungry. Clothe the naked. Care for the sick and the prisoner.

The Catholic Church spends more than double on these issues than every other agency, church, government, etc., combined. That’s not “nothing.”

Catholics spend a lot of money on adorning their churches. The Jesus I know, who lived simply and walked in sandals, in my faith would probably prefer the money being spent on other things.

It’s not a matter of “either/or.” We have seven Protestant churches - big-box design, blank walls, no heat, very few lights, etc.

We have one Catholic Church - neo-gothic design, candles, statues, stained glass windows, ornate Tabernacle, marble altar, fabulous baldaccino, full of candles, warm, and well-lit. Guess which one is open seven days a week for people to come in and get warm any time they want to? Guess which one has a lunch bus in its parking lot every noon hour for the poor (or anyone who wants) to come get a cup of hot soup and a sandwich, free of charge?

I’ll give you a hint; it isn’t any of the seven Protestant churches.

Not long ago my diocese and I presume dioceses throughout the land, were having abortion human chain lines. A parish near me did so and a block away are homeless on the streets. Rarely do I hear at Mass about these issues or even war or capital punishment. Where are the diocean sponsored chain lines for these issues? But it almost never fails that abortion is preached.

I’m betting the homeless were congregating there because they knew that when the Catholics were done with the prayer chain, they’d be coming that way to get back to their cars, and would give them the coats off their backs, if necessary, to meet their needs.

 

[tbcrawford]

As Catholics we adhere to the corporal works of mercy and spiriual works of mercy (among other things).Again on a personal note I financially support a refugee family,so does my sister.

The Corporal works of mercy are

•To feed the hungry;
•To give drink to the thirsty;
•To clothe the naked;
•To harbour the harbourless;
•To visit the sick;
•To ransom the captive;
•To bury the dead.

The spiritual works of mercy are:

•To instruct the ignorant;
•To counsel the doubtful;
•To admonish sinners;
•To bear wrongs patiently;
•To forgive offences willingly;
•To comfort the afflicted;
•To pray for the living and the dead.

 

[Newbie2]

I seem to be in a strange place in my faith journey, but I wanted to address the issue of Catholics not being aware of their sinful nature or that Jesus died for their sins. I grew up in a Catholic family, and went to Catholic school, but it wasn’t until I stumbled upon a book written by an evangelical Christian pastor in college that I was aware that Jesus died for my sins. It changed my life, of course, and I couldn’t get enough evangelical Christian literature. I went to a few different churches, convinced that if I hadn’t heard the message of salvation in 20 years of Catholic influence, it wasn’t where I should be.

After a couple of years, I started going to a Catholic church again, and suddenly, the message of Jesus’ role in salvation was ALL I heard! *** I just don’t understand why I didn’t hear it in those exact same words a few years earlier. ***

I don’t pretend that there aren’t differences, and I don’t pretend to have all the answers, but I think it’s a matter of individual faith journeys. I think it’s easy to believe that if you bring your child to church and send them to school or religious ed classes, it’s enough. I think children would be better raised in faith if they were actually raised in faith, not in rule-following and Sunday morning/Wednesday night routines. Just like parents are the child’s most important teachers, they are also the child’s most important evangelists.

Being a Catholic or attending a Catholic parish is no guarantee that we won’t do so with blinders on. For whatever reasons, external or internal, perhaps you weren’t ready yet to hear what was being taught. Happens a lot, methinks.