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Mrs_Mac
Guest
What happened to the OP?
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jmcrae
Guest
If he’s used to the pace of Evangelical forums, he’s probably not expecting any responses right away. He only posted five hours ago. Catholic forums move much more quickly than Evangelical forums (you can wait several days for a response, on those).
We’ll probably see him back tomorrow.
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
King of like the Republicans thought that all those “red states” were solid and unwinable for democrats, the Catholic Church has always thought countries like the Philippines were staunchly Catholic and the people couldn’t be pried away from their faith. They are wrong.
I will agree with the OP that we need to re-Catholicize and mission and witness more loudly to the world as individuals. As lay folks, we play little part in mission. We defer more to the missionary priests and Catholic media like EWTN to do those things. We need to begin a STRONG missionary lay program and get it revitalized.
I would ask the OP what his disagreements are with Catholicism, I would challenge him to explore it more deeply, and he, like Scott Hahn, might end up a Catholic. Most of those folks who dig deep enough into Church history don’t like what they find: a liturgical, apostolic succession-minded, sacramental, hierarchical, visible, tangiable Church with a priesthood, a deep devotion to Mary, a communion of saints, and the keys of Peter. They also find that the Bible didn’t drop out of a parachute into the world by God but was canonized by the Catholic Church and preached to the ends of the earth long before Martin Luther, Calvin, and the gang were born. They also find that justification through faith ALONE is fiction, Christ works through a priesthood and not through some Baptisty feel-good praiseband type of church and that tradition and the Church guided the children of God long before there was a canonized Bible. Such an explorer of history will also find that the novelties of total human depravity by Calvin, being terrified of infant baptism, divorce and remarriage being sinful, and contraception and other things were abhorred by the early church. Being saved in a one-time event was non-existent and the Church dispensed the sacraments to the believers. Worship wasn’t loosey-goosey koombaya but liturgical and dignified.
There’s a lot for the evangelical to learn about Catholicism. I hope the OP will continue the curiosity he has obviously been given by the Holy Spirit about Catholicism and realize that he’s wrong theologically and spiritually, but his heart is in the right place about spreading the good news and that the Catholic Church could use a new trooper who is fired up about spreading the Catholic word all over the world!
Catholicism is indeed growing and overtaking denominations like the Church of England, and it is growing in the third world, but we can do BETTER always. When I go with my wife to the Philippines, I try my darndest to win back some of her family that have fallen into evangelicalism and thrown away their old faith. We need more missionaries!
I will agree with the OP that we need to re-Catholicize and mission and witness more loudly to the world as individuals. As lay folks, we play little part in mission. We defer more to the missionary priests and Catholic media like EWTN to do those things. We need to begin a STRONG missionary lay program and get it revitalized.
I would ask the OP what his disagreements are with Catholicism, I would challenge him to explore it more deeply, and he, like Scott Hahn, might end up a Catholic. Most of those folks who dig deep enough into Church history don’t like what they find: a liturgical, apostolic succession-minded, sacramental, hierarchical, visible, tangiable Church with a priesthood, a deep devotion to Mary, a communion of saints, and the keys of Peter. They also find that the Bible didn’t drop out of a parachute into the world by God but was canonized by the Catholic Church and preached to the ends of the earth long before Martin Luther, Calvin, and the gang were born. They also find that justification through faith ALONE is fiction, Christ works through a priesthood and not through some Baptisty feel-good praiseband type of church and that tradition and the Church guided the children of God long before there was a canonized Bible. Such an explorer of history will also find that the novelties of total human depravity by Calvin, being terrified of infant baptism, divorce and remarriage being sinful, and contraception and other things were abhorred by the early church. Being saved in a one-time event was non-existent and the Church dispensed the sacraments to the believers. Worship wasn’t loosey-goosey koombaya but liturgical and dignified.
There’s a lot for the evangelical to learn about Catholicism. I hope the OP will continue the curiosity he has obviously been given by the Holy Spirit about Catholicism and realize that he’s wrong theologically and spiritually, but his heart is in the right place about spreading the good news and that the Catholic Church could use a new trooper who is fired up about spreading the Catholic word all over the world!
Catholicism is indeed growing and overtaking denominations like the Church of England, and it is growing in the third world, but we can do BETTER always. When I go with my wife to the Philippines, I try my darndest to win back some of her family that have fallen into evangelicalism and thrown away their old faith. We need more missionaries!
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Lib_Christian
Guest
The Catholic Church spends more than double on these issues than every other agency, church, government, etc., combined. That’s not “nothing.”
It’s not a matter of “either/or.” We have seven Protestant churches - big-box design, blank walls, no heat, very few lights, etc.
We have one Catholic Church - neo-gothic design, candles, statues, stained glass windows, ornate Tabernacle, marble altar, fabulous baldaccino, full of candles, warm, and well-lit. Guess which one is open seven days a week for people to come in and get warm any time they want to? Guess which one has a lunch bus in its parking lot every noon hour for the poor (or anyone who wants) to come get a cup of hot soup and a sandwich, free of charge?
I’ll give you a hint; it isn’t any of the seven Protestant churches.
I’m betting the homeless were congregating there because they knew that when the Catholics were done with the prayer chain, they’d be coming that way to get back to their cars, and would give them the coats off their backs, if necessary, to meet their needs.
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Lib_Christian
Guest
I didn’t think I typed it was “nothing” but if I did I am sorry. Didn’t mean to. My point was without “the marble” even more help could be provided. You made me smile though. Sounds like your parish is doing some good things though. God bless you.The Catholic Church spends more than double on these issues than every other agency, church, government, etc., combined. That’s not “nothing.”
It’s not a matter of “either/or.” We have seven Protestant churches - big-box design, blank walls, no heat, very few lights, etc.
We have one Catholic Church - neo-gothic design, candles, statues, stained glass windows, ornate Tabernacle, marble altar, fabulous baldaccino, full of candles, warm, and well-lit. Guess which one is open seven days a week for people to come in and get warm any time they want to? Guess which one has a lunch bus in its parking lot every noon hour for the poor (or anyone who wants) to come get a cup of hot soup and a sandwich, free of charge?
I’ll give you a hint; it isn’t any of the seven Protestant churches.
I’m betting the homeless were congregating there because they knew that when the Catholics were done with the prayer chain, they’d be coming that way to get back to their cars, and would give them the coats off their backs, if necessary, to meet their needs.
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jmcrae
Guest
You might think so, but for some reason, those who will pay to have a marble altar instead of one made of cardboard, are the same people who sponsor lunch buses, etc. My experience is that, those who don’t spend on luxury items tend also not to spend anything on the poor, either. I’m not sure why that is.
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Bob_Crowley
Guest
If you’re in a “Catholic Country”, then I would assume you’re either in Latin America, Phillippines, Spain / Portugal, Italy, France etc. The fact that they seem to have such a poor catechesis indicates to me that it’s probably Latin America somewhere, as I think the Spanish would be better educated. In the case of France, I don’t see any difference between apathetic Catholic Frenchmen and apathetic Protestant Europeans. At least the Spanish managed to get a million people to march against abortion. How many Protestant Americans are protesting that particular abuse? Or is it just all about me and my personal relationship with Christ?
You sound American, so you’ve come from a Protestant dominated, Northern European mindset.
There are two issues here - one is cultural, and the other is religious. I’ll admit that in the cultural sense the Catholic Church hasn’t been much use in Latin America in some ways. All too often it has simply been part of the status quo, working hand in glove with one dictatorship after another. Bishop Romero was one of the few hierarrchy to stand up publicly to abuses and he was murdered.
However Protestant Americans pretty well wiped out their Indian component, and banished the rest to reserves, whereas in South Ameria there is still a fair component of Indian blood. So the result is a much more mixed demographic setup. And that means you’re going to get a somewhat distorted message, maybe less than ideal catechesis, and what might be called cultish aspects from time to time, and place to place.
That said, the Catholic Church is not very evangelical. And that’s not just in South America. It’s the same here in Australia, in Europe, in the US etc. I think part of the reason is that for too long the job has been left exclusively with the priesthood, and I suspect that one of the reasons there is a lack of priests is that God wants ordinary Catholics to start taking responsibility for evangelism just as much as priests.
The Catholic system tends to work through education. And in Latin America, the education standard hasn’t been very good, as compared say to the Catholic system in wealthier countries like the USA or Australia.
So to some extent your crisicism is justified, but I could also find a few faults with Protestant evangelism. From time to time I’ll watch a bit of TV evangelism, and I see very little that I would put down to the Holy Spirit, and a great deal that I would put down to clever marketing, and nothing more - the speaker wears all-white, the music is empowering, the speaking is emphatic, he’ll strut back and forth across the stage like a comedian, tell jokes, and in the end expect a lot of money. He’ll lead the crowd with hype.
There are faults on both sides.
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Corki
Guest
Or even attended Mass where the penetential rite, in all its forms, centers on an acknowledgement of our sinfulness.T
I find it difficult to believe that anyone who has made his First Confession would not have been made aware of his sinfulness.
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lovebaby2012
Guest
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ralphinal
Guest
I have always been amazed when I hear people say that they never heard the Gospel in the Catholic CHurch. If you attend Sunday mass alone, most of it is covered over the three year rotation. If you attend daily mass as well, 90% of the BIBLE is covered.
The issue tends to be a combination of several factors. Poor teaching, people who do not take the time or initiative to learn on their own, and just plain human nature to ignore the Truth for what they want to see.
The issue tends to be a combination of several factors. Poor teaching, people who do not take the time or initiative to learn on their own, and just plain human nature to ignore the Truth for what they want to see.
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Rolltide
Guest
Marble tile is not actually all that expensive per square foot, and is a FAR better value than most other materials. When we were building a new church in our community, I learned from the architect that a typical carpeted floor in a church would wear out due to traffic in 10-20 years, even with the best carpet. A marble floor can last 200-300 or more. Over the long term, there is actually a major cost savings to the church, despite a somewhat higher up-front cost.
Let me refer you to my extensive posts on Vatican wealth here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6092978#post6092978
Read posts 28-33. If it lends to my credibility at all, I work as a professional historian. Here’s a sampling:
And yet, the Jewish Temple WAS fabulously adorned inside, and despite admonishing the moneychangers and many hypocritical pharisees, Jesus DID worship there, according to the Law, as any other Jew. His problem was NOT with the style of worship or the extravagance of the Temple. In fact, we DO know what Jesus would have thought, since he actually gave an answer:
Matthew 26:6-13
Now when Jesus was in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper,
a woman came up to him with an alabaster jar of costly perfumed oil, and poured it on his head while he was reclining at table.
When the disciples saw this, they were indignant and said, “Why this waste?
It could have been sold for much, and the money given to the poor.”
Since Jesus knew this, he said to them, “Why do you make trouble for the woman? She has done a good thing for me.
The poor you will always have with you; but you will not always have me.
In pouring this perfumed oil upon my body, she did it to prepare me for burial.
Amen, I say to you, wherever this gospel is proclaimed in the whole world, what she has done will be spoken of, in memory of her.”
Jesus is clearly saying that we will ALWAYS have the poor. Donating some money to have nice buildings to worship in for the glory of the Lord is NOT a sin! You must also consider that since Catholics (and the Orthodox) believe in the Real Presence, we believe that Holy Communion is, in fact, the ACTUAL Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ Himself, in the flesh (and not in just some spiritual sense). Therefore, Catholics and the Orthodox believe that Jesus is PHYSICALLY present in our churches, in person.
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Yerusalyim
Guest
What are Catholics doing? As a whole we are living the gospel…spreading the word of Christ’s salvation and carrying on the work of caring for widows and orphans. We have missions in almost every country in the world and I challenge anyone to show me an organization that is doing more in the way of charity. Do we have problems? Sure. Are some Catholics merely cultural Catholics or Cafeteria Catholics? Of Course…but you find this in every denomination and every religion.
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dawnmorning
Guest
It is very easy to generalize. It’s easy for someone to say “Protestants do this,” or for someone to say “Catholics do that.” But one of the stereotypes about Catholics that I hear often is that most people are merely culturally Catholic, without being truly Christian or having a relationship with the Lord at all. I’m sure that is true in every church. But Catholicism is incredibly cultural as well as spiritual. An adult who was raised in a Catholic family, who as an adult doesn’t pray or go to church or live any sort of faith, would still identify himself as Catholic. I would imagine, anyway. I wonder if a person who was raised in another Christian tradition would identify himself such, if he were living a life away from God. The first example might say, “I am Catholic,” whereas the second example might say, “I was raised attending a Baptist church.”
Of course, I might just be generalizing as well! What do you all think?
Of course, I might just be generalizing as well!
What do you all think?
B
byers
Guest
I am in approx the same age group as another poster, rep 140, and just wanted to mention that growing up in the pre-vatican II days that we were taught that lay people were to “evangelize by the way we live”…the quoting of the spiritual and corporal works of mercy being a good example of this.
The reasons given were that we did not have the proper theological knowledge to evangelize and that the religious - the priests, brothers, nuns were trained to do this and we should direct people to the church if they were interested.
The newer idea since vatican II is that we are all to evangelize, but I find it hard to understand what is meant by this.
Perhaps others could explain how they view the new evangelization and how we, as lay catholics are to be involved.
Thanks
The reasons given were that we did not have the proper theological knowledge to evangelize and that the religious - the priests, brothers, nuns were trained to do this and we should direct people to the church if they were interested.
The newer idea since vatican II is that we are all to evangelize, but I find it hard to understand what is meant by this.
Perhaps others could explain how they view the new evangelization and how we, as lay catholics are to be involved.
Thanks
J
jmcrae
Guest
My father hasn’t stepped foot in the UCC since Christmas of 1974, but he still writes “UCC” on the line that asks him what his religion is, whenever he gets admitted to the hospital.It is very easy to generalize. It’s easy for someone to say “Protestants do this,” or for someone to say “Catholics do that.” But one of the stereotypes about Catholics that I hear often is that most people are merely culturally Catholic, without being truly Christian or having a relationship with the Lord at all. I’m sure that is true in every church. But Catholicism is incredibly cultural as well as spiritual. An adult who was raised in a Catholic family, who as an adult doesn’t pray or go to church or live any sort of faith, would still identify himself as Catholic. I would imagine, anyway. I wonder if a person who was raised in another Christian tradition would identify himself such, if he were living a life away from God. The first example might say, “I am Catholic,” whereas the second example might say, “I was raised attending a Baptist church.”
Of course, I might just be generalizing as well!
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dawnmorning
Guest
I can only offer my opinion here, but I think of course the most important thing about evangelizing is the way we live, as you said. I read once: “People don’t necessarily want to know what we believe. They want to know if what we believe makes a difference in our lives.” So I try to keep that as priority #1. If I haven’t dealt with my own beam, how can I help someone else with his sliver, and all that.
A sub-priority of that is to be talking about it. I post scripture quotes that speak to me on facebook. I write about my faith on my blog. I try to bring my faith, in a positive way, to conversations.
I also try to keep my focus on attracting instead of chasing. I want to draw people to the Lord. I doubt anyone was ever attracted to faith because someone told them “the Church says this and the Church says that.” Or incessantly talking about rules. Or by trying to convince them that my church is better than everyone else’s church. If I try to chase someone down for my faith, they will just keep running. If I make it obvious that I love it, that I love the Lord, that this is better than any other way I’ve tried to live, they might just come asking what I have.
THEN, when they are asking questions, comes the hard part for me. I need to be prepared to answer them! Yikes!
Again, positive is best. And I try to find my basis in scripture, because that seems to be a better common ground than Catholic doctrine. Speaking from doctrine assumes they already believe that Catholicism is right. Right or wrong, there is something more universal about the Bible. I also know how to answer a question by saying: “You know, I don’t know the answer to that, either. Let me find out for you.” Then I do my research or ask someone who knows. I also answer questions sometimes by saying: “That’s a tough question, and I want to make sure I have my thoughts in order before I answer it. I’ll think about it and email/call you tomorrow.”The other thing I do is invite. I invite people to come to church events with me. If needed, I make it clear that I’m not trying to get them to be Catholic, I’m just wondering if they want to come to a fun event and meet people and socialize. I think Catholicism is so big, it can be intimidating. People need to become comfortable with it, and realize that Catholic people are just regular people, not scary cult members. They have to be comfortable before they can truly consider taking a step toward it.
Personally, I keep my focus on drawing people to God, more than drawing people to Catholicism. If Catholicism is the true Christian path, they will find their way there if they are pursuing God. I did. Anyone who tried to pull me back to Catholicism only succeeded in pushing me farther away from it. Just my experience, but it has shaped the way I approach others who are pursuing God.
Wow, that was long, and totally my own opinion, but I hope it gives you an idea of how I think about my role in evangelization.
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Teneas
Guest
I was not pre Vatican II, however I still think that Saint Francis said it best when he said
“preach the Gospel at all times; when necessary, use words”
We can evangelize all we want. The most powerful form of this is how our lives are lived. I have a BIG mouth, trust me, and I used to go around “battling the Protestants” on my job sites all the time. Figured they beat me with the Bible, perhaps it was time to turn the tide. While I did shut a few of them up from time to time, cause I was a Catholic that knew my stuff, I found that I reached very few of them.
On the other hand, those that I didn’t even try to reach, some have approached me here and there, and asked about my faith. My secret strength in dealing with my wife’s medical problems, or so on.
I think living a good life, and doing the things that need be done by you, are all that God needs to move forward in the world.
Just my two cents though…course…I come to here to spread faith as best I can to…so…yeah
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rep140
Guest
When I go to Mass and I am told to vote for George W Bush
We had this happen in our church too. One person walked out at that point. The Catholic Church does a lot of good, but this message gets lost. One reason is the anti abortion issue. Unless someone is an active Catholic this is the only public message you get from the Church. During the last election our bulletin listed the life issues as mandating how Catholics vote. Our priest preached about them. I can’t recall our pastor ever preaching about the need for corporal works.
We had this happen in our church too. One person walked out at that point. The Catholic Church does a lot of good, but this message gets lost. One reason is the anti abortion issue. Unless someone is an active Catholic this is the only public message you get from the Church. During the last election our bulletin listed the life issues as mandating how Catholics vote. Our priest preached about them. I can’t recall our pastor ever preaching about the need for corporal works.
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Answersplease
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CB_Catholic
Guest
I doubt that the priest told anyone to specfically vote for George Bush. That can cause a church to lose it’s tax-exempt status. They can, however, state the position of the Catholic Church on certain issues, and urge the parishoners to form their voting conscience by what the Church teaches. But they can’t stand up at the pulpit and tell people to vote for a particular named candidate or political party. There is nothing wrong in listing the issues in the bulletin and encouraging people to vote according to Church teaching. That is not the same thing as endorsing a particular candidate or political party. And the same thing holds true for non-Catholic churches.
As for the Church emphasizing life issues, they are perfectly right to do this, because when the basic respect for life and human dignity is gone, everything else starts to collapse. We are seeing that in our society today. We used to be in a position where the assumption was that every life was precious and every human being had dignity and it is our duty as Christians to see that the needs of all people are met. Well, today, we cannot start at that point anymore–many people (including Christians) don’t assume every life is precious anymore. Only if it is convenient. Thus we destroy life at the very beginning (abortion) or want to do it at the very end (euthanasia or assited suicide). If we find that a fetus is defective, we can eliminate it. If it’s inconvenient to allow a baby to be born–abort it. If a person is too old or too sick and places a burden on society, why not help them die? It then spirals downhill from there. So the Church needs to emphasize life issues. Who else is going to?
And if you want an example of just how low a society can go when the respect for life is gone–just take a look at Nazi Germany and their attempts to create a superior master race. Don’t think that in our enlightened age this could never happen again.
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