What are the differences between the Eastern Catholic Churches and the Western Catholic?

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Eastern Catholics are Roman Catholics with an Eastern Rite (ie. Liturgy) You can take that to the bank
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I don’t know what bank you are referring to, but I won’t be investing any money there. This is a gross generalization that is untrue for many of our faithful. I have found this sort of hypergeneralization to be often made by those who come to our Church and after spending a little time in our parishes become spiritual and theological “experts” without actually spending the time to get familiar with our spirituality, theology, many of our parishes, priests, bishops, religious, laity, academic instutions, writings, scholarly journals, history, etc.

If I was to judge all cars by driving one or two that would be ridiculous. That sort of statement reminds me of my time teaching with the SSPX when after a couple of years the reformed “traditionalist” became an expert in all things Catholic circa 1570.
 
Diak said:
I don’t know what bank you are referring to, but I won’t be investing any money there.
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Istituto per le Opere di Religione 😃
Diak said:
This is a gross generalization that is untrue for many of our faithful. I have found this sort of hypergeneralization to be often made by those who come to our Church and after spending a little time in our parishes become spiritual and theological “experts” without actually spending the time to get familiar with our spirituality, theology, many of our parishes, priests, bishops, religious, laity, academic instutions, writings, scholarly journals, history, etc.
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Is it? I’m not trying to bad mouth here, just brutally honest. My intention is not to use that expression as something derogatory. I know many Eastern Catholics touts that we have “Orthodox praxis but in communion with Rome”. But honestly, more often than not, that is not the reality in our parishes. So why not say what it really is? It is not a bad thing. Honesty is not a bad thing. We don’t believe Roman Catholics are heretical, so why are we offended if people say we share their spirituality? I am not pretending to be an expert of the Eastern praxis here. I’m just calling it as I see it.
Diak said:
If I was to judge all cars by driving one or two that would be ridiculous. That sort of statement reminds me of my time teaching with the SSPX when after a couple of years the reformed “traditionalist” became an expert in all things Catholic circa 1570.
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Isn’t the Catechism put out by the UGCC a clear indication of the reality? Is it something thats isolated to one or two parishes when the Church itself puts out a very Western catechism?
 
Thank you all for your replies.I was just considering conversion to an Eastern Catholic because being a Latin Catholic feels like…betraying our traditions,as I belong to the Orthodox East.
 
I wonder if there are EC-churches in Athens, the majority of Catholic churches in Greece are Latin-rite. And there is no ‘conversion’, you can just walk in and recieve the sacraments. It’s the same Church after all.
 
Credo_ergo_sum said:
I wonder if there are EC-churches in Athens, the majority of Catholic churches in Greece are Latin-rite. And there is no ‘conversion’, you can just walk in and recieve the sacraments. It’s the same Church after all.
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Don’t think there are either.The only Eastern Catholic Church in Greece is Greek Byzantine Catholic Church with no churches in Athens.
 
Vasilis92 said:
Don’t think there are either.The only Eastern Catholic Church in Greece is Greek Byzantine Catholic Church with no churches in Athens.
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Apostolic Exarch for Catholics of the Byzantine Rite in Greece is about 2300 faithful mostly in Athens. (I am uncertain of the current status of the following.)

EXARCH OF BYZANTINE RITE
  • Parishes and Chapels
**
** **ATHENS - ATTIKI
**


Parish of the Holy Trinity
Athens Acharnon str 246,
Tel.: + 30 210 86 77686Chapel of The Birth of Mother of God

Nea Makri - Marathonos avenue,
Tel.: +30 22940 91 206GIANNITSA
Parish of St. Peter and Paul
Giannitsa
Tel. +30 23820 22 368SYROS
Chapel of The Birth of Christ
Syros Tel: + 30 22810 28 678cathecclesia.gr/hellas/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=133&Itemid=141

http://www.elcathex.com
http://www.elcathex.com

Athens archbishop fears disaster looms for Greek Catholic Church (2011):
uscatholic.org/news/2011/07/athens-archbishop-fears-disaster-looms-greek-catholic-church
 
Isn’t the Catechism put out by the UGCC a clear indication of the reality? Is it something thats isolated to one or two parishes when the Church itself puts out a very Western catechism?
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So you have seen it in English and can credibly quote and discuss it? Unless your Ukrainian is absolutely fluent with understanding of dogmatic, spiritual and liturgical nuances in the language I would be surprised as there is yet no official English translation.

Read St. Peter Mohila’s Orthodox Catechism sometime before you do. It follows a very “Western” form as well, as is St. Philaret’s after it.
But honestly, more often than not, that is not the reality in our parishes. So why not say what it really is? It is not a bad thing. Honesty is not a bad thing. We don’t believe Roman Catholics are heretical, so why are we offended if people say we share their spirituality? I am not pretending to be an expert of the Eastern praxis here. I’m just calling it as I see it.
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“Latinization” is one thing, which no one will deny is present in each and every Eastern Catholic Church to varying degrees, But being “Roman” is something entirely different and I know very well that if you presented some of our people with that accusation, you will not receive as kind of a response as I am giving. Most of our people are quite proud of our liturgical and spiritual particularity, and many have had to suffer persecution and even martyrdom to keep it. And where do you stop? I’ve been to recited liturgies at Orthodox parishes before when cantors weren’t there. Look at some of the icons in the Sofrino catalog in Moscow and you will immediately notice some of them are quite Latin-inspired.

But I would certainly not call all Latins who like to use this or that beautiful Eastern devotional practices (like Blessed John Paul II) “Eastern with a Latin liturgy” as that is not honest at all but at best as ludicrous an exaggeration as yours.
 
Diak said:
So you have seen it in English and can credibly quote and discuss it? Unless your Ukrainian is absolutely fluent with understanding of dogmatic, spiritual and liturgical nuances in the language I would be surprised as there is yet no official English translation.

Read St. Peter Mohila’s Orthodox Catechism sometime before you do. It follows a very “Western” form as well, as is St. Philaret’s after it.
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Well, I have not, that is why I posed it as a question. Do you say that all these harsh criticism against it is a lie then? These people are making stuff up?
Diak said:
“Latinization” is one thing, which no one will deny is present in each and every Eastern Catholic Church to varying degrees, But being “Roman” is something entirely different and I know very well that if you presented some of our people with that accusation, you will not receive as kind of a response as I am giving. Most of our people are quite proud of our liturgical and spiritual particularity, and many have had to suffer persecution and even martyrdom to keep it. And where do you stop? I’ve been to recited liturgies at Orthodox parishes before when cantors weren’t there. Look at some of the icons in the Sofrino catalog in Moscow and you will immediately notice some of them are quite Latin-inspired.
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It is not just about recited Liturgies. I can take that. Let us look at another practice, fasting. There is Friday fasting which is the same as Roman Catholicism. But Wednesdays only during Lent. But Lent is supposed to be everyday. There is no Apostle’s Fast, no Dormition Fast, Philip’s Fast is just a “you can substitute with acts of charity”, similar to what has been happening to Fridays with the RCs.
Diak said:
But I would certainly not call all Latins who like to use this or that beautiful Eastern devotional practices (like Blessed John Paul II) “Eastern with a Latin liturgy” as that is not honest at all but at best as ludicrous an exaggeration as yours.
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Fair enough, but it certainly is not “Orthodox in communion with Rome.” Far from it. And maybe it is an exaggeration to be “Roman with an Eastern Liturgy,” but by my experience if you put a line between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, the UGCC is somewhere on that line closer to Roman Catholicsm than Eastern Orthodox. And again, please, don’t take this as a bad thing. I do not see it as a bad thing. If this is indeed the traditions, this is indeed the belief in the UGCC, then so be it. No one is believing anything heretic. It is just not “Orthodox” as some would claim it to be.
 
Well, I have not,
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Well, then perhaps you shouldn’t speak of things you do not have any personal knowledge of.
Let us look at another practice, fasting. There is Friday fasting which is the same as Roman Catholicism. But Wednesdays only during Lent. But Lent is supposed to be everyday. There is no Apostle’s Fast, no Dormition Fast, Philip’s Fast is just a “you can substitute with acts of charity”, similar to what has been happening to Fridays with the RCs.
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The minor fasts are on the calendar and in the liturgical books; I talk about the minor fasts in my homilies and I’ve heard others in the UGCC. Why not be a good example, keep them, and remind others about it? Organize a prayer service during the week with a communal fasting meal? It’s a lot better than complaining. You will find that not all Orthodox keep the fasts, either.

First of all, the good Eastern Christian knows that fasting is a personal ascetic journey. As St. John Cassian reminds us quoting Abba Moses in Volume I of the Philokalia:
Fasts and vigils, the study of Scripture, renouncing possessions and everything worldly are not in themselves perfection, as we have said; they are its tools. For perfection is not to be found in them; it is acquired through them. It is useless, therefore, to boast of our fasting, vigils, poverty, and reading of Scripture when we have not achieved the love of God and our fellow men. Whoever has achieved love has God within himself and his intellect is always with God.
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Ever go to St. Elias in Brampton? You’ll see that there are indeed many in the UGCC who take “orthodox in communion with Rome” seriously as I do, whether it is in the celebration of the Liturgy, prayer life, or spirituality.

If we are all Latinized simpletons who don’t know who we are, and are so spiritually inferior to your standards, why do you stay? Good luck finding “pure” Eastern Christianity…
 
Diak said:
Well, then perhaps you shouldn’t speak of things you do not have any personal knowledge of.
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So I can’t ask a question too? Which I did by the way. You are challenging my knowledge on a question I asked. Isn’t that why you ask a question, because you do not know and you want to know?
Diak said:
The minor fasts are on the calendar and in the liturgical books; I talk about the minor fasts in my homilies and I’ve heard others in the UGCC. Why not be a good example, keep them, and remind others about it? Organize a prayer service during the week with a communal fasting meal? It’s a lot better than complaining. You will find that not all Orthodox keep the fasts, either.
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I don’t expect most people to keep the fast, that is besides the point. We don’t even talk about the fast, as if it is not there.
Diak said:
First of all, the good Eastern Christian knows that fasting is a personal ascetic journey. As St. John Cassian reminds us quoting Abba Moses in Volume I of the Philokalia:

Ever go to St. Elias in Brampton? You’ll see that there are indeed many in the UGCC who take “orthodox in communion with Rome” seriously as I do, whether it is in the celebration of the Liturgy, prayer life, or spirituality.
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Not every UGCC parish is like St. Elias. In fact, St. Elias is more of an exception than the norm. And someone who knows more than I do commented that St. Elias isn’t actually following Ukrainian tradition, but more of Greek tradition.
Diak said:
If we are all Latinized simpletons who don’t know who we are, and are so spiritually inferior to your standards, why do you stay? Good luck finding “pure” Eastern Christianity…
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I never said we are simpletons, I never said that we are spiritually inferior. In fact I said if this is who we are then we should not be afraid to let the world know that this is the case. Why are you acting as if this is a bad thing? Again, as with my last post, is Latin faith heretic? Traditions evolve over time. Do you think that Eastern traditions today is exactly the same as they were at the time of St. John Chrysostom? Why can’t the Ukrainian tradition and identity evolve from the Union of Brest to where it is today? We are not in heresy, why be mad about it? Its not like the UGCC turned into a Charismatic Movement.

Maybe its time to look in the mirror and ask, why are we so intent on being “Orthodox in communion with Rome”? Is being Catholic a bad thing? So what if we’re Latinized? We are in communion with Rome, we form the one body of Christ in the Catholic Church. The blood that flows in the arm flows in the leg as well. This is a natural evolution of the faith, a cross pollination. Latin theology is also being Easternized. Theology of the Body has elements of Theosis in it. This is not a bad thing, this is not inferiority.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Maybe its time to look in the mirror and ask, why are we so intent on being “Orthodox in communion with Rome”? Is being Catholic a bad thing? So what if we’re Latinized? We are in communion with Rome, we form the one body of Christ in the Catholic Church. The blood that flows in the arm flows in the leg as well. This is a natural evolution of the faith, a cross pollination. Latin theology is also being Easternized. Theology of the Body has elements of Theosis in it. This is not a bad thing, this is not inferiority.
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Those are three good questions, but an even more important question is: Do you (Constantine) regard the Eastern Catholic Churches as churches, or as rites?
 
Peter_J said:
Those are three good questions, but an even more important question is: Do you (Constantine) regard the Eastern Catholic Churches as churches, or as rites?
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Well, we are all under one bishop, aren’t we? And before anyone object to that, let me remind you these two things…

So, then, if anyone says that the Roman Pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the Church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the Churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful: let him be anathema.

So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema.
 
That doesn’t necessarily answer the question for me, though, b/c I’m not convinced that it’s impossible for more than one church to be “under” the same head bishop.
 
Peter_J said:
That doesn’t necessarily answer the question for me, though, b/c I’m not convinced that it’s impossible for more than one church to be “under” the same head bishop.
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Where the bishop is, there is the Church. There cannot be Churches that have two bishops, the bishop IS the Church.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Where the bishop is, there is the Church. There cannot be Churches that have two bishops, the bishop IS the Church.
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So, the next time your parish celebrates an anniversary, or there is an ordination in your church, the Pope will be there presiding? Forgiveness - not really trying to be argumentative, but it is difficult to understand exactly what is truly being asserted here. :confused:

Especially given the hierarchical structure of the UGCC, and its demonstated ability to exercise a fair degree of discretion in its own affairs (and to exert a fair amount of influence in Rome), its difficult to comprehend how a member of the UGCC can conclude (as it seems here - please correct otherwise) that the Pope is everyone’s bishop, and the UGCC is nothing more than a ritual chuch within the Roman Catholic world.
 
ByzCathCantor said:
Especially given the hierarchical structure of the UGCC, and its demonstated ability to exercise a fair degree of discretion in its own affairs (and to exert a fair amount of influence in Rome), its difficult to comprehend how a member of the UGCC can conclude (as it seems here - please correct otherwise) that the Pope is everyone’s bishop, and the UGCC is nothing more than a ritual chuch within the Roman Catholic world.
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Well said. I would just like to chime in, with regard to “ritual church”, that the change of terms is quite recent (and perhaps is not yet felt everywhere): the 1990 Code of Canon Law avoids that phrase, simply using “Ecclesia sui iuris”, but the previous (1983) Code of Canon Law did use it (“Ecclesia ritualis sui iuris”).

Even today it’s common for people to speak of, for example, a “canonical change of rite”.
 
Peter_J said:
Well said. I would just like to chime in, with regard to “ritual church”, that the change of terms is quite recent (and perhaps is not yet felt everywhere): the 1990 Code of Canon Law avoids that phrase, simply using “Ecclesia sui iuris”, but the previous (1983) Code of Canon Law did use it (“Ecclesia ritualis sui iuris”).

Even today it’s common for people to speak of, for example, a “canonical change of rite”.
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Indeed. That said, His Holiness manages to get it right quite consistently! 👍
 
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