What are "The Essentials"?

[benjohnson]

Yes, I see your point, ben.

But what lumps this group of separate churches together is the concept that all truths of the faith are found in the Bible,

That would be fair if all the churches labeled as Protestant held that concept, but we don’t!

As a Lutheran, I would be lost without tradition and church teaching. We don’t deny other authorities at all - if anything, I cling to those authorities as they a much better teachers of the faith than my interpretations of the bible could ever be.

 

[PRmerger]

That would be fair if all the churches labeled as Protestant held that concept, but we don’t!

You didn’t include the qualifier, ben. Please don’t exclude that, and then your communion will be part of that group.

 

[benjohnson]

You didn’t include the qualifier, ben. Please don’t exclude that, and then your communion will be part of that group.

Sorry, I’m confused! - Are you saying that the dividing line between Catholics and Protestants is that the Protestant churches don’t submit to authority?

EDIT: Actually, I’m really confused! Are you say that us Lutherans should maintain our acceptance of tradition and teaching? If so, I really agree! If we Lutherans are to reconcile our church with the Catholic church, then that will be a larger part of the process.

 

[PRmerger]

Sorry, I’m confused! - Are you saying that the dividing line between Catholics and Protestants is that the Protestant churches don’t submit to authority?

Yes.

Now, if you’re going to proffer that Lutherans do submit to the authority of the Lutheran Church–and I think I’ve read some of my Lutheran friends here stating something close to that–then I will have to ask you this: is there some Lutheran teaching that you have submitted your obedience to, that in your own personal view you would not believe, except for the Lutheran Church declared it to be so?

 

[JonNC]

Yes.

Now, if you’re going to proffer that Lutherans do submit to the authority of the Lutheran Church–and I think I’ve read some of my Lutheran friends here stating something close to that–then I will have to ask you this: is there some Lutheran teaching that you have submitted your obedience to, that in your own personal view you would not believe, except for the Lutheran Church declared it to be so?

For me, here’s one example, PR.

Invocation of the Saints and the Blessed Virgin. I submit to the teaching that we do not pray to the saints.

Jon

 

[PRmerger]

For me, here’s one example, PR.

Invocation of the Saints and the Blessed Virgin. I submit to the teaching that we do not pray to the saints.

Jon

Even though you, of your own belief, would pray to them?

 

[Stilldreamn]

Even though you, of your own belief, would pray to them?

This exact subject is a thorny one for me. I not only do it, but have taught my children to do it as well, with the caveat that in no way are prayers to the Virgin or saints to take the place of prayers to God. The communion of saints seems pretty sterile without the practice of praying for each other.

 

[JonNC]

Even though you, of your own belief, would pray to them?

I look at two things:

1. The entire Church, East and West, has done so for centuries.
2. Luke 15:7 “Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.”
   If those in Heaven have an awareness of the events on Earth to kow of one person who repents,…

Plus, personal experience regarding cancer, and the comfort I received knowing of St. Peregrine’s example and faith. I still have his picture in my wallet, some 6 1/2 years after treatment.
Jon

 

[benjohnson]

Yes.

Now, if you’re going to proffer that Lutherans do submit to the authority of the Lutheran Church–and I think I’ve read some of my Lutheran friends here stating something close to that–then I will have to ask you this: is there some Lutheran teaching that you have submitted your obedience to, that in your own personal view you would not believe, except for the Lutheran Church declared it to be so?

As a thought exercise: If the sharp dividing line is submission to authority, would our Orthodox friends then be “protestant” by that definition because they don’t fully submit to the authority of the Roman Pontiff?

To answer your question:

Yes, as a scientist, I held that a single cell is just a cell. By submission, my faith brought me round to what the church teaches and I look back on my previous thinking in horror.

 

[benjohnson]

This exact subject is a thorny one for me. I not only do it, but have taught my children to do it as well, with the caveat that in no way are prayers to the Virgin or saints to take the place of prayers to God. The communion of saints seems pretty sterile without the practice of praying for each other.

Not to completely derail the topic, but I’ve been told that it’s permissible to invite the saints who are in heaven to join you in your prayers to God. I’d appreciate correction if this is not true.

 

[JonNC]

Not to completely derail the topic, but I’ve been told that it’s permissible to invite the saints who are in heaven to join you in your prayers to God.

In a Lutheran sense, pray to God to listen to the prayers of the saints in Heaven, much as we do in the Prayer of the Church: We beseech thee to hear us, dear Lord. In other words, hear not only my prayers, but the prayers of all the saints on Earth. And as we are in the Communion of Saints, hear the prayers of the saints in Heaven, as well.
And that’s what I do: Hear, oh Lord, the prayers of the saints in your Church Triumphant, as they pray for us, your Church Militant. Hear, especially, St. Peregrine and all the saints who pray for those afflicted with cancer, and other diseases. Your will be done. Amen.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Not to completely derail the topic, but I’ve been told that it’s permissible to invite the saints who are in heaven to join you in your prayers to God. I’d appreciate correction if this is not true.

One also has to remember that the reformers’ first complaint was the requirement to invoke the saints.

But as you said, Ben, we’re a bit off topic.

Jon

 

[GaryTaylor]

Not to completely derail the topic, but I’ve been told that it’s permissible to invite the saints who are in heaven to join you in your prayers to God. I’d appreciate correction if this is not true.

We ask the Saints to pray for us through our prayer to them, as with St Michael or with St Mary you are praying to them so they in fact pray for you. Thus they are taking your prayer along with their’s before the Lord and thus the Lords will. Or intercession.

Though its more complex in that the theology of the Communion of Saints includes prayer for the dead thus purgatory. Which shouldn’t be viewed as a place but a process or purification. Which is why the Church states “Blessed are those who take their purgatory on earth”

 

[PRmerger]

This exact subject is a thorny one for me. I not only do it, but have taught my children to do it as well, with the caveat that in no way are prayers to the Virgin or saints to take the place of prayers to God.

The communion of saints seems pretty sterile without the practice of praying for each other.

Indeed.

And I would add the corollary: praying for each other seems pretty sterile without the communion of saints.

 

[PRmerger]

I look at two things:

1. The entire Church, East and West, has done so for centuries.
2. Luke 15:7 “Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.”
   If those in Heaven have an awareness of the events on Earth to kow of one person who repents,…

Plus, personal experience regarding cancer, and the comfort I received knowing of St. Peregrine’s example and faith. I still have his picture in my wallet, some 6 1/2 years after treatment.
Jon

Oh! I didn’t know you were a cancer survivor, Jon! God’s blessings to you as you continue your journey of health!

So about the obedience you show to the Lutheran Church: (if I understand correctly–you personally believe in praying to the saints, but you do not because the LC has proclaimed that this is not part of God’s revealed truth, yes?)…

You believe that God has established the Lutheran Church, and given her the authority to declare “Thus says the Lord!”

Yes?

 

[PRmerger]

As a thought exercise: If the sharp dividing line is submission to authority, would our Orthodox friends then be “protestant” by that definition because they don’t fully submit to the authority of the Roman Pontiff?

Forgive me as I muse a bit, ben, and I may ramble, but I promise I will bring it back and close the circle.

So I have been in many discussions with atheists and their “ace in the hole” seems to be this: the problem of evil.

No honest Believer can state that atheists do not have a valid reason for rejecting Theism.

Or, to put it without the double negatives: the problem of evil appears to be a valid reason for people to reject the Truth. It is a stumbling block to almost all thinking atheists.

Similarly, the schism between East and West appears to be the non-Catholic’s “ace in the hole”.

No honest Catholic can state that non-Catholics do not have a valid reason for rejecting Catholicism, based on this great divide that exists between these two Churches.

Or, to put it without the double negatives: the great schism appears to be a valid reason for people to reject Catholicism. It is a stumbling block to almost all thinking non-Catholics.

So you are right, ben. I really have no answer for you on this.

However, while I am not a conspiracy theorist, and do not see the devil lurking in every corner, this thought has occurred to me: if I were going to do everything I could to prevent the wavering atheist*–one who is possibly considering swimming into the River of Deism–what I would whisper is this: * but how could there be a God when there is .
*
That would be enough, don’t you think, to stop the wavering atheist right in his tracks?

*And what would be more of a loss for the devil than to have an atheist swim into the River?

Similarly, if I were the devil and were going to do everything I could to prevent the wavering Lutheran*–one who is possibly considering swimming the Tiber River–what I would whisper is this: but how could the Catholic Church be the One True Church when there is a sharp divide between the East and the West?

*And what would be more of a loss for the devil than to have a Lutheran swim the Tiber?

(NB: this is a post written by a Catholic, of course, with a Catholic POV, so please do not read any condescension into this. You must understand that a Catholic would believe that the devil does not want a Lutheran to be a Catholic. I would not assign any condescension to you were you to offer a post in which you mused about the devil doing everything he could to prevent me from joining the Lutheran Church ).

So, to close the circle: if you can see how the problem of evil–while indeed a problem–ought not prevent an atheist from being a Believer…

then perhaps you can see how the problem of the schism–while indeed a problem–ought not prevent a non-Catholic from being a Catholic.

 

[jmcrae]

As a thought exercise: If the sharp dividing line is submission to authority, would our Orthodox friends then be “protestant” by that definition because they don’t fully submit to the authority of the Roman Pontiff?

They are schismatic, but they don’t trace their lineage back to any of the Protestant reformers, so they can’t be considered Protestant.

Protestants are those who trace their spiritual heritage back to Luther or Calvin and those who took on their philosophies to build on them, including those who ultimately contradicted them. For example, Baptists are Protestant because their forebears built on the work of Calvin, even though they ultimately contradicted Calvin and became separated into a new denomination.

But the Greek Orthodox are not Protestant, because they retain the teachings of the Apostles, although they are separated from the authority of the Vicar of Christ.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, as a scientist, I held that a single cell is just a cell. By submission, my faith brought me round to what the church teaches and I look back on my previous thinking in horror.

That’s not *exactly *what I was looking for (but close!)

You are now convinced that the Lutheran Church is correct about the sanctity of life, from conception to natural death, right?

I am asking for a belief that you have submitted to, but that your own personal beliefs are not in conformity with.

I will proffer my own example: I personally do not have a problem with a Catholic couple wanting to marry but not have children. To me, it makes sense that people who do not like children, but love each other, ought not have children.

However, I willingly submit to the Catholic Church’s teaching that this couple ought not get married if they are not open to the procreation of children.

While I do not fully understand this teaching, and I wrestle with this, I know that the problem is with ME, and not with the Church. That is, my understanding of the theology of marriage is lacking somehow that I cannot see why it would be fruitless (ha!ha! pun intended!) for this couple to marry.

Quoting Cardinal John Henry Newman: “Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt, for a man may be annoyed that he cannot work out a mathematical problem, without doubting that it admits an answer.”

I have no doubt that the Catholic answer is correct. I just have to work out the mathematical solution until I can come up with the answer: all Catholic couples who marry must be willing to procreate.

 

[benjohnson]

Forgive me as I muse a bit, ben, and I may ramble, but I promise I will bring it back and close the circle.

So I have been in many discussions with atheists and their “ace in the hole” seems to be this: the problem of evil.

Thanks for the reply - it’s quite good.

I can see your analogy that’s there’s always just enough doubt to keep us from the truth - hopefully in God’s time, the east and west schism will be mended and in the process maybe us Lutherans would lose some of our excuses.

As a former agnostic, I found the “best of all possible worlds” a good counter to the “problem of evil” en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_of_all_possible_worlds

So you are right, ben. I really have no answer for you on this.

That’s amazingly wise - I don’t count that against you at all. Having a faith that is beyond needing rhetoric is something that I strive for.

(NB: this is a post written by a Catholic, of course, with a Catholic POV, so please do not read any condescension into this. You must understand that a Catholic would believe that the devil does not want a Lutheran to be a Catholic. I would not assign any condescension to you were you to offer a post in which you mused about the devil doing everything he could to prevent me from joining the Lutheran Church ).

It gives me joy that you think that there may be something holing me back from your truth. May God unite us in his time.

 

[benjohnson]

That’s not *exactly *what I was looking for (but close!)

You are now convinced that the Lutheran Church is correct about the sanctity of life, from conception to natural death, right?

I am asking for a belief that you have submitted to, but that your own personal beliefs are not in conformity with.

Yes… I was not in agreement with Lutheran teaching on abortion, but now I am. So this isn’t a good example anymore of my submission.

This is a hard one, because I really struggle with it: LC-MS teaching says that I can’t commune with heterodox churches - I disagree. In fact, I think God wants us to treat other Christians as fellows. But for the last year, I’ve behaved myself, much to my own astonishment.

I resist, and still resist, but I am trying to submit. I never talk about it though with other church members - and don’t really feel comfortable talking about it now and I don’t want to lead anybody astray against LC-MS teaching.