What are the main arguments for using Latin in the Liturgy?

[Brendan]

Goodness, illiterate serfs and peasants living centuries ago were able to understand that “Pater Noster” was “Our Father”. They might not have been able to write it; they might not have understood that if they were going to say “My Father” it would not be “noster’ which is 'our”. . but they understood it. So can we.

No kidding. Our parish has the OF in Latin. We go to that on occasion ( so my kids get to learn the Latin responses like I did - see my previous posts)

My 10 year old son has been pointing out places where the current translation is defective.

Sure, he’s not doing declinations, but he can certainly figure out what means what.

 

[Brendan]

It is simply going to be what it was always supposed to be: A Mass in which parts will be in Latin as was always intended for good and sufficient reason, and in which parts will be said in the vernacular…

Yep, as mentioned above, our parish offers the OF Mass in Latin once a week ( as well as the EF).

For the English Masses, the Gloria, Credo and Pater Noster are chanted every other week, the other times they are said in English.

Even at the Slovak Mass, they are chanted as in Latin as well.

Which is pretty much what Vatican II intended. At the very least, it mandated that the faithful should know and be able to chant all their parts in Latin.

If anyone is saying they should not, they are pretty much denying what Vatican II teaches. Not exactly a good position for a Catholic to take.

 

[Love_is_Patient]

I traveled abroad last year. It wasn’t a Catholic country, but there was a large church in the city. And they had Mass in 6 different languages - which effectively meant that if you were Italian, you went to one Mass, Polish, another, etc, etc. Despite the fact we were all Catholic, the use of the vernacular effectively made it difficult for us to worship together.

Just my :twocents:

Love is Patient

 

[Cat]

Indeed, there is no Church document which says or approves of the Mass being said entirely in the vernacular.

Hey, guess what, thunderballs75? I forgot what dies irae means again. :banghead::doh2: I think it was you who told me last time, about a month ago, was it? In one month, I forgot again. Absolutely positively no clue. It’s gibberish to me, in spite of years of singing it in various Latin musical works. I can’t even begin to tell you what I think it might possibly mean.

Oh, well! :whacky:

Yes, japhy, I know how to use babelfish.

And for those who say that we WILL learn the Latin after 52 weeks–ummm, no. After five years of being Catholic, I would not want to stand up and recite from memory the Gloria (from the Creation) or the Nicene Creed or even the Apostles’ Creed in ENGLISH! I would not be able to do it.

There are just certain people for whom foreign languages are a stumbling block. I don’t find Latin (or any language) ethereal or spiritual or anything other than nonsense syllables.

Yes, I’ll do whatever the Church says, but I’ll be reading it in English the whole time, just like whenever we sing Latin hymns in Mass, I sing them in ENGLISH (softly) because I don’t understand Latin.

I know I’m coming across as a real smart-aleck here. I’m sorry. I’m only trying to express how I and many others feel about having OUR language taken away from us and replaced with some foreign syllables that mean nothing to us.

Those of you who grew up with Latin, or those of you who are fond of classical history and culture enjoy Latin, and I’m honestly glad for you. But please, PLEASE try to understand that many of us just don’t have the same feeling that you do for it. And for those of us who grew up Protestant, there is absolutely no warm fuzzy feeling in us for Latin. We don’t get it.

For us, it’s a burden. Yes, YES, we’ll obey our Church and hopefully God will reward us someday for sticking it out.

Frankly, I think this whole conversation is kind of pointless and kind of scary for people like me and somewhat divisive. I cannot imagine the Vatican ever replacing the vernacular with Latin in most countries! A few phrases here and there to remind of us our heritage–that’s OK. In the Swedish Baptist Church that I grew up in, we sang, “O Store Gut” at least once a year (I’m probably spelling that wrong). The occasional hymn in Latin will be fine, although you’ll still have people like me singing it in English to ourselves.

But to even think of replacing the entire Mass with Latin–c’mon! Others have stated it well when they say that “unity in Christ” is not about having a “common church language.” It’s about being baptized into One Body. I can’t imagine the Catholic Church taking such a step that would no doubt alienate millions of people. They already alienate millions with their unwavering stand against abortion and homosexual sex (and I’m glad they take that stand). But Mass in the Vernacular is NOT a grave sin. It’s not a hill that the Catholic Church should die on.

Again, I’m sorry if I come across like a prickly pear. I’m only trying to express to you how I and others feel. I probably should just ignore threads like this and allow all of you Latin-philes to just have a good time and not throw rocks at your balloon.

 

[thunderballs75]

Again, Latin was not abandoned, ever. The Council said that it would be of benefit for certain parts of the Mass (readings mostly) to be translated into the vernacular, but that Latin should be retained in the Latin Church. And either way, they have English to Latin Missals/Missalettes for whoever finds it impossible to learn those few parts which would be in Latin.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

**Cat, nobody is replacing the ‘entire Mass’ with Latin.

**See, this is where it gets so difficult. . . Where people start talking about having Latin ‘back’ in the liturgy in places, and other people suddenly fear that “they’re going to turn MY entire good old vernacular Mass into a wholly Latin Mass.”
****But the Ordinary Form of the Mass was never, ever meant to be ‘entirely’ in the vernacular. And. . .(this will I hope reassure you). . .the ordinary form of the Mass was never, ever meant to be entirely in Latin.

Oh, dies irae (Day of wrath). Think of ‘irate’.

There’s always something. Now I might be good at languages, but take something architectural drafting, or even using simple tools. . .and I’m terrible. Awful. I’ll never be good no matter how I try. But I try not to get all upset about it.

Cat, the thing was, way back when (when I was a youngster and you might not even have been born), somebody made a big boo-boo and turned the whole Mass into the vernacular. And parts of it should not have been changed.

So this isn’t ‘your language’ that’s been ‘taken away’. I know you may never, ever like the “Gloria” in Latin. But it wasn’t as though the Gloria had ALWAYS been in English, was meant to be in English, and now somebody for a totally selfish and stupid reason was trying to “make it” Latin just to p/o people and satisfy their own selfish desires for Latin.

Finally. . and I hope this will come across properly. . .

Cat, this is not about “the Church alienating people with stands about Latin, or abortion, etc.”

It’s about Truth. Now I’m sure you believe (as I do) that there is absolute Truth. And the Church proclaims that absolute truth.

And (truth being truth). . .for those who do not ACCEPT truth, they are going to feel alienated. . .but that doesn’t mean that we stop proclaiming the truth, does it? Of course not.

Even if we did “the very stones would cry out”. … Christ has triumphed, and His Church will too. No matter how many people deny the truth, it’s still going to exist.

The Catholic Church isn’t a democracy and it’s not out to win popularity contests by preaching only what people ‘want’ or ‘accept’ or like’. They’re not to change doctrines so that they’ll ‘get more people in.’

If they did… . they wouldn’t be Christ’s Church, they’d be the devil’s church.

 

[Cat]

**Cat, nobody is replacing the ‘entire Mass’ with Latin.

**See, this is where it gets so difficult. . . Where people start talking about having Latin ‘back’ in the liturgy in places, and other people suddenly fear that “they’re going to turn MY entire good old vernacular Mass into a wholly Latin Mass.”
****But the Ordinary Form of the Mass was never, ever meant to be ‘entirely’ in the vernacular. And. . .(this will I hope reassure you). . .the ordinary form of the Mass was never, ever meant to be entirely in Latin.

Oh, dies irae (Day of wrath). Think of ‘irate’.

There’s always something. Now I might be good at languages, but take something architectural drafting, or even using simple tools. . .and I’m terrible. Awful. I’ll never be good no matter how I try. But I try not to get all upset about it.

Cat, the thing was, way back when (when I was a youngster and you might not even have been born), somebody made a big boo-boo and turned the whole Mass into the vernacular. And parts of it should not have been changed.

So this isn’t ‘your language’ that’s been ‘taken away’. I know you may never, ever like the “Gloria” in Latin. But it wasn’t as though the Gloria had ALWAYS been in English, was meant to be in English, and now somebody for a totally selfish and stupid reason was trying to “make it” Latin just to p/o people and satisfy their own selfish desires for Latin.

Finally. . and I hope this will come across properly. . .

Cat, this is not about “the Church alienating people with stands about Latin, or abortion, etc.”

It’s about Truth. Now I’m sure you believe (as I do) that there is absolute Truth. And the Church proclaims that absolute truth.

And (truth being truth). . .for those who do not ACCEPT truth, they are going to feel alienated. . .but that doesn’t mean that we stop proclaiming the truth, does it? Of course not.

Even if we did “the very stones would cry out”. … Christ has triumphed, and His Church will too. No matter how many people deny the truth, it’s still going to exist.

The Catholic Church isn’t a democracy and it’s not out to win popularity contests by preaching only what people ‘want’ or ‘accept’ or like’. They’re not to change doctrines so that they’ll ‘get more people in.’

If they did… . they wouldn’t be Christ’s Church, they’d be the devil’s church.

I absolutely agree with everything you say, although I do question what is “Truth” about Latin. It’s a language, right? It’s not a dogma or doctrine of the Church, is it? It’s a “tradition” (small t), right?

 

[Brendan]

I absolutely agree with everything you say, although I do question what is “Truth” about Latin. It’s a language, right? It’s not a dogma or doctrine of the Church, is it? It’s a “tradition” (small t), right?

The ‘Truth’ about Latin is that it is a theologically precise languange ( like Greek). Terms and meanings are very clear in Latin that, in English are less so.

And unlike English, the terms retain the same meaning century after century.

 

[malphono]

But the Ordinary Form of the Mass was never, ever meant to be ‘entirely’ in the vernacular. And. . .(this will I hope reassure you). . .the ordinary form of the Mass was never, ever meant to be entirely in Latin.

It’s not my intent to get embroiled in this thread, but I will offer one small comment:

Taking the famous words of Vatican II, the first sentence quoted is true, no problem there. But that doesn’t cover the second sentence. The editio typica of the OF is, of course, in Latin, and there is nothing that says the entire order of service is not to be conducted in Latin. (OK, perhaps the readings may be done in another language but as I see it, the matter of the readings is a rather minor point.) When done that way (in Latin and ad orientem), it’s the OF in its fullest “reform of the reform” mode.

So there’s my :twocents:

 

[PhilotheaZ]

I do stand by my argument in terms of the liturgy of the Word. If one cannot understand the language, the readings and homily fall on deaf ears. Remember although the Eucharist is the source and summit, the Word is important as well.

Usually in the Extraordinary Form of the Mass the Gospel (and sometimes the Epistle) is repeated in the vernacular after being read in Latin. (It is even permissible for them to be read only in the vernacular, but I have rarely seen this done.) And the sermon is always given in the vernacular.

 

[Tosk]

Usually in the Extraordinary Form of the Mass the Gospel (and sometimes the Epistle) is repeated in the vernacular after being read in Latin. (It is even permissible for them to be read only in the vernacular, but I have rarely seen this done.) And the sermon is always given in the vernacular.

Is it possible for them to have the readings in the vernacular and then the sermon in Latin? I think I would like that rather than having to hear all of the twadle that comes out during a lot of sermons at our parish.

 

[thunderballs75]

Is it possible for them to have the readings in the vernacular and then the sermon in Latin? I think I would like that rather than having to hear all of the twadle that comes out during a lot of sermons at our parish.

LOL

 

[japhy]

And for those who say that we WILL learn the Latin after 52 weeks–ummm, no. After five years of being Catholic, I would not want to stand up and recite from memory the Gloria (from the Creation) or the Nicene Creed or even the Apostles’ Creed in ENGLISH! I would not be able to do it.

Then read it from a book, don’t memorize it.

(And actually, I can sympathize with you about not being able to say those things from memory. I find that the Creed, for example, is hard to say without a bunch of other people saying it with me!)

 

[Brendan]

And for those who say that we WILL learn the Latin after 52 weeks–ummm, no. After five years of being Catholic, I would not want to stand up and recite from memory the Gloria (from the Creation) or the Nicene Creed or even the Apostles’ Creed in ENGLISH! I would not be able to do it.

Cat, that is why it’s chanted. That is how my 6 year old knows the Gloria. She hears it every other week at Mass, and the human mind remembers thinks set to music very, very well ( think about when you hear a song you haven’t heard in years come on the radio. It’s easy to remember the words when you hear the music, right?

Pope Paul VI knew that, and in 1974, he issued a missal of common chants with instructions for the bishops to use this. ( note that this was WELL after Vatican II)

The missal was called “Jubilate Deo”. This is what Pope Paul VI had to say in the cover letter to the Missal.

“Would you therefore, in collaboration with the competent diocesan and national agencies for the liturgy, sacred music and catechetics, decide on the best ways of teaching the faithful the Latin chants of Jubilate Deo and of having them sing them…. You will thus be performing a new service for the Church in the domain of liturgical renewal

Note again, that he considered these Latin chants to be part of the liturgical renewal of Vatican II

Here is the Gloria from that Missal (and the one we use at our parish)

adoremus.org/hymns/29%20Gloria.mp3

Cut it to a CD or you mp3 player and listen to it on your commute to work. I do that too.

 

[andy120]

• Practicality. Latin can be understood by people of all languages, nationalities, etc. I’m convinced the reason it isn’t taught as often in schools is because it is no longer part of the Mass. For the record, my high school required Latin for all Honors level students, and encouraged it for all others (in addition to learning your choice of a romance language) - and this is still the practice today.
• It’s a dead language. No, I’m not mixing up my arguments with the opponents’. Using a so-called ‘dead’ language means using a language that isn’t constantly evolving due to secular use. The meaning of the words aren’t going to change over time with a language that hasn’t changed much in centuries.
• No argument over interpretation. The liturgy is written in Latin and there is no confusion as to what this word should be in the vernacular.
• No improvising during Mass. It’s less likely that a priest will improvise or change words during Mass when it’s all in Latin. He says it how its written.
• More than the ordinary. The Mass is meant to be set aside as sacred - using Latin, a language that isn’t used in everyday conversation, is a symbolic way of doing that. We “dress up” by wearing nice clothes to Mass, why not “dress up” our language as well?
• People learn more Latin. How could this be a bad thing? Latin is at the foundation of the study of liberal arts. Many ancient writers, scientists, and politicians wrote in Latin. So did many of the great Catholic theologians and philosophers. To be able to read even some of their work in the native language is a great gift indeed. Not to mention learning Latin helps with the understanding of Romantic languages and even English. They say that students who know Latin do better on the SATs, particularly the vocabulary sections.

Just some off the top of my head…

I don’t have any problems with the Mass in the vernacular though - I don’t have much of a right to complain when my God is standing there before me

 

[JRKH]

Well, here in New England while there were (and still are) pockets of people who hate the “new Mass”, overall the vernacular was happily received.

No one has said it isn’t a licit Mass. However, the overwhelming majority of people attend Mass in the vernacular and not in the Latin even when given the choice.

Just a couple of quick points on the change in the 1960’s to vernacular.
Also please know that I am not a mal-content on this issue. I am quite content with they way things are except that I would like to see the diocese in general offer more Latin masses in the EF and employ more Latin in the EF as well.

1. When the Mass was switched over in the 1960’s in your area, did anyone consult the laity on preference or was the change simply implemented wholesale? In our case it was a wholesale change. Latin was out and English was in - period.
2. I am aware that no one on this thread has said the EF was illicit, and I hope I did not imply that. If I did I apologize.
3. I have heard this statement and others similar about now the “Overwhelming” majority of people not attending a Latin mass “even if offered”. Perhaps they would. But the point is that there are few Latin Masses offered whether in EF OR in OF form. I live in the Archdioces of Cincinnati and in the Entire Archdiocese of 19 counies and 550,000 Catholics there are only two or three EF Latin masses offered on a weekly basis.
   In an earlier post here I posted a link to a poll I ran here a while back that showed that in point of fact a EF Latin mass would be MORE crowded than not. While I admit that the poll is not scientific, it none the less undercuts the idea that Latin is a deterent to People attending mass.
   If you are interested, the link is on Post number 30 of this thread.

Peace
James

 

[Cat]

Cat, that is why it’s chanted. That is how my 6 year old knows the Gloria. She hears it every other week at Mass, and the human mind remembers thinks set to music very, very well ( think about when you hear a song you haven’t heard in years come on the radio. It’s easy to remember the words when you hear the music, right?
Pope Paul VI knew that, and in 1974, he issued a missal of common chants with instructions for the bishops to use this. ( note that this was WELL after Vatican II)

The missal was called “Jubilate Deo”. This is what Pope Paul VI had to say in the cover letter to the Missal.

Note again, that he considered these Latin chants to be part of the liturgical renewal of Vatican II

Here is the Gloria from that Missal (and the one we use at our parish)

adoremus.org/hymns/29%20Gloria.mp3

Cut it to a CD or you mp3 player and listen to it on your commute to work. I do that too.

referring to boldface, mine. Sorry, Brendan. Nope. Perhaps it’s because I’m a pianist, but I can’t remember the words to songs at all, even if I’ve heard or sung them a thousand times. There are a few songs that I learned when I was a child that I still remember, but I’m very serious–if I learn a song in a choir, and they take the printed music away from us, I can’t even remember the opening line. So I don’t sing in choirs where memorization is required.

I also can’t memorize piano pieces and never have been able to, even though I am a skilled pianist. I can remember playing in piano competitions–I would start the piece, play a few measures, stop, turn to the adjudicators, and ask, “May I use my music, please?” They were usually so surprised that they said, “Sure.” I always used music, even at recitals, and I played beautifully and still do. Not being able to memorize music, either piano or vocal, is one of the main reasons why I switched my major in college from music to medical technology. I realized that I was missing a skill that was necessary to be a successful professional musician. It was very embarrassing. I was a straight A student, but I couldn’t remember how “Moonlight Sonata” started if I sat down at a piano without music.

And for what it’s worth, I can’t do word puzzles. On Wheel of Fortune, the puzzle can look like this:

F_r G-d s_ L_ved the w_rld

And I won’t be able to solve it. I don’t watch that show because I feel so stupid watching it.

And I can’t repair things. I am unable to match what is on a schematic drawing with what is on the object that needs repair. I think this is one reason why using a missallette to translate a language to my heart language (English) would be a very frustrating experience for me. I just can’t transpose paper to real life.

The other day my daughter and I played a game involving making patterns with little sticks. I could not match the sticks with what was on the game cards. We finally gave it up after it was obvious I wasn’t getting it.

And–I can’t play card games. I always thought this was because I grew up Baptist and cards were forbidden. But even after we stopped being Baptist, I just don’t understand the concept of a “trick.” Maybe it’s part of the same brain deficiency.

I don’t think everyone is as bad as me! But I do think a lot of people just don’t get Latin the way they get English. I actually think a lot of people have a hard enough time with English.

**I think that in this day and age, the passing of information and understanding that information is vitally important for Catholics especially. We have so many Catholics who are un-catechized and so many Catholics who have picked up very weird and incorrect ideas about the teachings of the Catholic Church. The last thing we need is something to muddle it even more. For most Catholics, the Mass is their ONE catechetical activity each week, and many don’t even go every week. That Mass needs to be clearly understood even by people who don’t speak “religion,” otherwise we will end up with even more ignorant Catholics who misrepresent the Church in their spheres of influence. **

Those Catholics who are knowledgeable and well-catechized sometimes have a hard time accepting that others are not their intellectual equals in the Church. I hope I expressed that politely.

 

[ibkc]

Cat, if what you say is true - that you can’t memorize anything at all, ever, under any circumstances, and that you have a very difficult time even with your native language of English - it would seem to me that you have some sort of extreme learning disability. If this is the case, you have my sincere compassion, but I have to offer that what you describe isn’t the norm. You might look into getting some therapy or other kind of help. But in the meantime, you might consider that if you don’t even know what to say when it comes time for the Gloria or the Nicene Creed in English, what difference does it make if it is in Latin? Either way, you’d still just be reading it and not retaining the words. Seems to me that in your case, what language it is in would be six of one and a half dozen of the other.

But I also don’t think that your very extreme case of a complete inability to retain anything is representative of the abilities of most people. I think most regular attendees of mass are able to retain the order of mass, and by the number of people I’ve seen giving the responses without the aid of a missal at every parish I’ve ever been to, to memorize fairly easily be it in English or Latin. Or Spanish, or Greek, or whatever.

As for me, I am not good at foreign languages. At all. I failed out of French class in high school. But I do have the intellectual curiousity to study Latin. As japhy has noted, Latin’s contributions to English are enormous. It’s not just a few words. Even a very basic study of Latin vocabulary for the purpose of better understanding of our liturgy in both the OF and the EF has been a highly enriching experience for me, even though I will never speak or read Latin on advanced or even an intermediate level.

I think most people are somewhere between you and I on the scale of Latin “ability”: not into actively learning it like me, but not extremely opposed to it like you, either. At the OF parish I attend part-time, the Agnus Dei (“Lamb of God”) is said in Latin most of the time. I haven’t noticed the congregation having any more problem with it than when it is said in English, or any more problem with it than any other recited part in the mass. I certainly haven’t noticed attendance or parish membership being affected by the affrontery of a few lines in Latin. Of course, that is anecdotal, but that parish is a pretty normal one, I think.

 

[peregrinus_sg]

Hi Cat,

It’s ok if you can’t memorise the common prayers at Mass. You could always follow in a hand missal.

**I think that in this day and age, the passing of information and understanding that information is vitally important for Catholics especially. We have so many Catholics who are un-catechized and so many Catholics who have picked up very weird and incorrect ideas about the teachings of the Catholic Church. The last thing we need is something to muddle it even more. For most Catholics, the Mass is their ONE catechetical activity each week, and many don’t even go every week. That Mass needs to be clearly understood even by people who don’t speak “religion,” otherwise we will end up with even more ignorant Catholics who misrepresent the Church in their spheres of influence. **

Those Catholics who are knowledgeable and well-catechized sometimes have a hard time accepting that others are not their intellectual equals in the Church. I hope I expressed that politely.

But the Mass isn’t a catechetical moment, even though the reading of the Word of God, the homily and even the rituals can have didactic value. It is primarily divine worship, a mystery.

In any case, I fail to understand why some Latin at Mass would muddle the faith of poorly-catechised Catholics. They could follow the text in hand missals right? Maybe for once, they will actually bother to look at what the text says.

 

[peregrinus_sg]

I do stand by my argument in terms of the liturgy of the Word. If one cannot understand the language, the readings and homily fall on deaf ears. Remember although the Eucharist is the source and summit, the Word is important as well.

I think very few people would argue for the use of Latin even in the reading of the Word of God and the homily, unless that was a language that is supposed to be known by the assembly.

However, I think that even with the Word and homily in the vernacular, there are still many deaf ears around in the assembly. Just this past Sunday, one of the Priests bluntly told the assembly that not a few of those seated there are hypocrites, like the Pharisees: lip service with no effort to try to change their hearts in conformity to Christ’s Gospel after listening to it.