What are the requirements for a teaching to be infallible in the Eastern Orthodox Church?

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Why is referring to a body of believers in communion with a specific Bishop, who claims to protect tradition, more satisfactory than referring to a body of believers claiming to share the same unbroken tradition?

Really, the only difference is that anyone can claim that share same unbroken tradition. Not everyone can claim to be the Pope (to be quite correct, some have tried that too so I won’t say that no one can).

There is always some amount of insecurity to matters like this, beginning with choosing the right religion or faith system.

I agree, but as we have seen with Apostle Thomas, uncertainty in belief isn’t quite desirable. We can doubt existence of God time to time but when it comes to our actions and our professions of faith in daily lives, we ought to act without that doubt. I guess that is the difference. Do our doubts affect our actions? That is of course question for each of us individually. I think I get the Orthodox view now. It isn’t quite about being exactly sure in the faith system. My only real issue is that if there happens to be a Council resulting in Schism and each side claims to be Orthodox, faithful would require great knowledge of tradition, theology and history to pick a side. Not picking the side isn’t quite an option in this scenario.

“The Church is the Church by being faithful to Tradition. The Pope will always protect Tradition. You will, by studying Church history, see that Tradition was always protected by the Pope.”

While quite true, it is often not as precise to believe Pope will protect tradition. Sometimes Pope just won’t betray it and that’s the maximum.

Also, I do not think the role of the Church is to be a substitute to positivism, something you can discover by your mere intellect.

In the end that is why everyone proclaims that faith is gift from God.

Thank you for your patience and I also hope I have not offended you or anyone else.

I also thank you for great response. You have not offended me. Thank you for lovely discussion in charity.

 

[Montrose]

Montrose:

We are BOUND BY ALL TEACHINGS, both infallible and non-infallible.

No. If Pope says something in and interview I am not bound by it. If my Priest teaches something in homily I am not bound by it. There are various degrees and we aren’t bound by everything.

The Pope saying something in an interview is completely different.

Catholics are bound by infallible and non-infallible doctrine.

We are even bound by Church discipline, although we can disagree with it.

 

[Montrose]

Montrose:

I don’t understand why we Catholics are trying to find out what teachings are infallible or not. It does not matter.

It does matter. One Pope once said that ensoulment of unborn baby happens quite late and hence early term abortions are okay. Another Pope discarded that teaching and corrected such mistake. First teaching wasn’t infallible though. If it did not matter there wouldn’t be those degrees in the first place.

Church doctrine has NEVER changed.

 

[George720]

We as Orthodox believe that our faith represents the tradition of the saints and the apostles, and this faith is not true because it is proclaimed by a council – the council is true because it adheres to the faith.

That’s something we also agree with. Problem comes when someone who is confused by many denominations wants to find the Truth. Let’s say that a certain someone does not have brains to actually do deep theological research on what is and isn’t Apostolic Faith… then what? How does he decide where Truth is?

ONS! What a lovely and crisp and accurate reply!

I was that “certain someone”…

So I will reply to you:

“Deep Theological Research” is not needed… Nor is someone telling you that their Church is the AUTHORITY of all Christendom needed… Denominational confusion is and should be one’s NORMAL response to Denominationalism…

In this regard I made 2 ‘mistakes’ after encountering God:

1. I asked right away to go all the way with Him…
2. I asked what to do and how to live 14 years later…

The result was me being sent to the Orthodox Faith after being told I am a Christian - And yes, I was scandalized! Knowing God for 14 years and totally certain He was not the Christian God… All I can say is… Well… What do I know???

I mean, I am sure God wants some to stay right where they are in their non-Catholic Churches - At least for now… They are needed… And the best way for someone looking at becoming Catholic is to have them LIVE the Faith discipled by the Catholic Church they feel called to…

In this regard, “proving the infallibility” of one’s own Church is at best counterproductive… I know, for me, the Protestants always wanting to “witness” to me for their faith was a huge turn-off, and “Papal Infallibility” a bad joke…

God Calls and we disciple… We show by our lives and teachings and worship how the Faith of the Apostles is LIVED… Proving our own infallibility just seems so… Well… Crackers… When God gives the Truth, all doubt vanishes, and infallibility is experienced without proof by the Presence of God, and it is not propositional knowledge… It is received in silence and stillness… “Be still and know… That I AM God…”

geo

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Church doctrine has NEVER changed.

I never claimed that. But what I stated did happen.

I mean, I am sure God wants some to stay right where they are in their non-Catholic Churches - At least for now…

Perhaps permissibly. If there is One True Church which Lord has set up on this Earth, He would want everyone to be in it. Whether that is Orthodoxy or Catholicism.

The result was me being sent to the Orthodox Faith

I felt sent to many faiths, but ultimately feelings are surpassed by reality. I rarely have good feeling when I fast… I rarely have good feeling when I do penance. When I went to Church for the first time I was quite bored… but I stuck with it. Feelings are just feelings… indicators but not infallible guidance.

Nor is someone telling you that their Church is the AUTHORITY of all Christendom needed…

If indeed Holy Spirit was promised to guide us, if indeed there is even thing such as infallible Church (Church being pillar and foundation of Truth), then there must be authority of all Christendom. Then there must be One Truth. In any other case, Christianity itself is a lie.

Denominational confusion is and should be one’s NORMAL response to Denominationalism…

This isn’t what our Lord teaches us or what Scripture teaches us… there is indeed One Lord. Where do we draw the line? Is being Trinitarian enough? Is being Christian enough? Is being Theist enough? God is Truth and as such, He is enemy of confusion… and we all know who confusion stems from.

It is received in silence and stillness… “Be still and know… That I AM God…”

Yes. “Be still” is important… but so is “know That I AM God”. We ought to know not just suppose.

 

[George720]

Yes. “Be still” is important…
but so is “
know That I AM God ”.
We ought to know
not just suppose.

Such knowledge is not given by someone claiming God’s authority…

It is immediate and immanent and from God…

Nor is it given by someone “witnessing” to you…

I mean, not all will receive authority - Pilate would not receive Christ’s Authority… He ran from it, and even from his own, washing his hands in vain…

And the Jews wanted to give Christ authority to be their leader, and He departed, remember? The Ekklesia is the “foundation” and the “holding up for witness” of the Truth - Christ… Indeed it is Christ in man on earth… The Ground and Pillar… Christ is the Author of our Faith - Not the Authoritarian… We are always free to walk away… At least up to a certain point - Jonas comes to mind, mind you…

Christ is the Authority of our Faith - And the clergy have the responsibility of the administration of its Offices in the Churches… And they have the power to do so until they don’t… It is Christ’s Body, not theirs…

When Christ gave John the Book of the Apocalypse on the Isle of Patmos, did John give it to Peter’s See so Rome could tell the seven Churches of Asia what to do? The answer is no… Christ is in direct charge of His Own Body on earth… “And Lo, I am with you, unto the end of the Age…” And He was… And He is… And He will be… He did not say to His Disciples: “I have placed Peter and His followers in My Authority as my Head over my Body until I return…”

So we disagree…

So what’s new??

God Bless You Brother!

geo

ps - I never felt all that “sent” to Orthodoxy - I went there because I was sent - I must say it felt weird and strange… But I did it wholeheartedly because I was sent to do so… I didn’t care if they were teaching the making of green cheese on the far side of the moon, I was there to learn it wholly… So we are not all that different in terms of our “feeeelings”, I say!

 

[George720]

If indeed Holy Spirit was promised to guide us,
if indeed there is even a thing such as infallible Church
(Church being pillar and foundation of the Truth),
then there must be authority of all Christendom.
Then there must be One Truth.
In any other case, Christianity itself is a lie.

Agreed…

And…

Christ is the Truth…

The AUTHOR of our Faith…

This isn’t what our Lord teaches us or what Scripture teaches us…

If you are an outsider and have a whole bunch of clamoring denominations vying for your soul, confusion is normal, and so is walking away, and so is persecuting Christians… Hearing God is all that matters…

I would buy you a good cup of coffee if you were in range!

geo

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

It is immediate and immanent and from God…

Nor is it given by someone “witnessing” to you…

Yet we read about Saints and study the Fathers. Church is a community. Christian life is centered inside the Church. Church was established to help us grow towards God… and there is a good reason She is Bride of Christ, Ark of Salvation and that there is no salvation outside Her. Church is a great help in our road towards Salvation.

He did not say to His Disciples: “I have placed Peter and His followers in My Authority as my Head over my Body until I return…”

He did tell Peter to govern His lambs. Many false Prophets are in the world… some of those even claim to have Apostolic Faith. Lord remained with us, but there is also earthly sign of where he remained.

ps - I never felt all that “sent” to Orthodoxy - I went there because I was sent - I must say it felt weird and strange… But I did it wholeheartedly because I was sent to do so… I didn’t care if they were teaching the making of green cheese on the far side of the moon, I was there to learn it wholly… So we are not all that different in terms of our “feeeelings”, I say!

If that is the case, then I guess we are similar to a certain point at least. I came to Church with utmost obedience and humility… but later also learned that I ought to take responsibility for myself and my actions… and so I searched where Truth is. I was close to Protestantism, close to Orthodoxy yet I remained Catholic in the end.

God Bless You Brother!

God Bless You too Brother