What are the similarities between Orthodoxy and Catholicism

[Cavaradossi]

While St. Anselm’s understanding of the atonement is not the doctrine of the Orthodox church, do you think it is absolutely incompatible with orthodoxy, or could it perhaps be an acceptable theologoumenon?

In general, the opinion seems to be that Anselm’s introduction of satisfaction into the question of the atonement marks a departure of sorts from the patristic model. The result is something which is not entirely foreign (for God in Anselm’s argument in the end still seems to be motivated by His supreme love for man), but with a twist (the satisfaction part of it), so to speak. The Orthodox assessment of the satisfaction part of this theory seems rather negative, probably because of how the concept of satisfaction would later be related to purgatory and indulgences.

So to be frank, I am unsure. Much of Cur Deus Homo seems quite sound, apart from the role that satisfaction plays in its logic, but then if one removes satisfaction from the equation, it ceases to be Anselm’s own seminal and influential theory of atonement.

 

[dvdjs]

The very essence or nature of our being is different.
If you would like a clearer understanding of this I would recommend reading the book “Church, Papacy and schism. A theological perspective”, by Philip Sherrard.

Have no idea that the essence of a nature is.
But neither did Patriarch Bartholomew ever get around to detailing or explaining what he meant by this remark, so widely quoted but never substantiated.

 

[Nine_Two]

That all depends on how one understands “satisfying the divine justice”. Are we to believe, for example, that St. Athanasius believed that the death of Christ was being offered in order to satisfy the Father’s need (for lack of a better term) to punish sins with respect to the Divine Justice, as Anselm might have taught? A reading of St. Athanasius’ discourses on the incarnation seem to indicate not, for St. Athanasius’ main reasoning (at least in On the Incarnation) for why the Father could not simply revoke the sentence of death brought upon Adam and his descendents does not appeal to the Divine Justice, but rather presents God (and His dilemma) in an almost anthropomorphic light.

The most Sovereign High, having promised the crown of His creation death if he ate of the forbidden fruit was bound by His word to sentence His beloved creation Adam to death for his disobedience. To revoke the sentence would be to prove himself to be a liar, and He therefore sent his Only-Begotten into the world, that the sentence of death could be annulled by the death of the very source of life, thus freeing Adam without ever revoking His promise that Adam would die.

It is, perhaps, more crude and more fantastic (or even more human) than Anselm’s more polished account, in which the sentence of death could not have been revoked because Adam, through his disobedience, dishonored his immutable Creator, and to have revoked the sentence would have rendered to the Creator less honor from Adam than what was due, making the Creator in truth subject to change. For Anslem then, we have that God, in accordance with His justice and majesty must punish sins, for sins render to God less honor than what is due to Him, and since God is immutable, this honor-due must be rendered to God by means of punishment.

So do we believe that the sacrifice of Christ at Calvary satisfied the divine justice? In a certain sense, yes (perhaps in the sense that St. Isaac of Nineveh understood the Divine Justice), but not in the Anselmian sense, no.

You’ve explained it better than I ever could have.

 

[pat28]

I am Catholic, my wife Russian Orthodox.

Didn’t read all the answers above so don’t know if these came up:

similarities:

-Mary is regarded as very important in both religions, even though Orthodox Christians say that Catholics at some point decided that she was born with no sin thanks to the mercy of God. I agree with them that this would make the devotion to her useless as she would have no merit in her purity and devotion to God.

-Spiritual imagery is very important in both, in Catholic churches you will usually see many statues of Christ, Mary and saints as well as paintings while Orthodox Christians prefer icons.

-the practice of monasticism.

-certain parts of the mass: reciting of the ‘Our Father’, the reading of the scriptures, communion, priest sermon.

I am catholic and got married recently with my Russian Orthodox wife in her Orthodox church. We were a bit worried that the priest may challenge the fact that I am Catholic but actually he seemed relieved that I wasn’t protestant or of a non-christian religion as he finds Catholicism very close to Orthodoxy.

However, he also went on making his point on why our calendar is wrong… and the orthodox bishop whom we also met said that they too are ‘Catholics’, meaning that they belong to the ‘universal church’. So he clarified that it is not just us being part of the universal church, but them also. He explained that they are ‘Catholic Orthodox’. This was new to me.

Some differences that may interest you:

-Russian Orthodox masses are usually much longer than Catholic ones. On a Sunday at my wife’s church the mass will last approx. 3 hours. People stand and churches usually don’t have benches. I did however hear that Greek Orthodox churches also do have benches (but not sure about this).

-Orthodox Christians don’t pray the rosary. However they may pray the ‘Jesus prayer’ on a soft chain of beads (it is soft so it doesn’t make noise and doesn’t distract the prayer). I noticed however that Orthodox Christians don’t give this type of prayer as much value as we do for the rosary. It appears to me that the mass prayers are more central.

My wife and me feel very inspired in praying Jesus and dedicating our lives to Him despite the different Christian denominations. We start having a bit of a conflict when she starts telling me that theirs is the true Christian religion that didn’t change but maintained the original Christian tradition. While I appreciate the richness that comes with the fact that old traditions have been maintained in their belief, there are parts of the Catholic faith that I can’t do without, like the rosary.

To me, our situation feels often a bit like if we were two different professional and first league football teams. We may have different shirts on, but we play the same sport at the same professional level Sometimes one has the better, sometimes the other…

 

[Nine_Two]

-Orthodox Christians don’t pray the rosary. However they may pray the ‘Jesus prayer’ on a soft chain of beads (it is soft so it doesn’t make noise and doesn’t distract the prayer). I noticed however that Orthodox Christians don’t give this type of prayer as much value as we do for the rosary. It appears to me that the mass prayers are more central.

To say we don’t give the Jesus prayer as much value as the rosary is incorrect. The emphasis of where it stands in our spiritual life may well be very different (though the context of use is the same), but the value placed on it is at least the same, if not greater than the rosary.

 

[Reuben_J]

To say we don’t give the Jesus prayer as much value as the rosary is incorrect. The emphasis of where it stands in our spiritual life may well be very different (though the context of use is the same), but the value placed on it is at least the same, if not greater than the rosary.

Another example of how we try to speculate the value of other church’s practice/prayer and then trying to compare the value to our own practice/prayer. A needless exercise in futility. The reason often times threads on Orthodox ended up being closed.

 

[Peter_J]

I am Catholic, my wife Russian Orthodox.

Didn’t read all the answers above so don’t know if these came up:

similarities:

-Mary is regarded as very important in both religions, even though Orthodox Christians say that Catholics at some point decided that she was born with no sin thanks to the mercy of God. I agree with them that this would make the devotion to her useless as she would have no merit in her purity and devotion to God.

-Spiritual imagery is very important in both, in Catholic churches you will usually see many statues of Christ, Mary and saints as well as paintings while Orthodox Christians prefer icons.

-the practice of monasticism.

-certain parts of the mass: reciting of the ‘Our Father’, the reading of the scriptures, communion, priest sermon.

I am catholic and got married recently with my Russian Orthodox wife in her Orthodox church. We were a bit worried that the priest may challenge the fact that I am Catholic but actually he seemed relieved that I wasn’t protestant or of a non-christian religion as he finds Catholicism very close to Orthodoxy.

However, he also went on making his point on why our calendar is wrong… and the orthodox bishop whom we also met said that they too are ‘Catholics’, meaning that they belong to the ‘universal church’. So he clarified that it is not just us being part of the universal church, but them also. He explained that they are ‘Catholic Orthodox’. This was new to me.

Some differences that may interest you:

-Russian Orthodox masses are usually much longer than Catholic ones. On a Sunday at my wife’s church the mass will last approx. 3 hours. People stand and churches usually don’t have benches. I did however hear that Greek Orthodox churches also do have benches (but not sure about this).

-Orthodox Christians don’t pray the rosary. However they may pray the ‘Jesus prayer’ on a soft chain of beads (it is soft so it doesn’t make noise and doesn’t distract the prayer). I noticed however that Orthodox Christians don’t give this type of prayer as much value as we do for the rosary. It appears to me that the mass prayers are more central.

My wife and me feel very inspired in praying Jesus and dedicating our lives to Him despite the different Christian denominations. We start having a bit of a conflict when she starts telling me that theirs is the true Christian religion that didn’t change but maintained the original Christian tradition. While I appreciate the richness that comes with the fact that old traditions have been maintained in their belief, there are parts of the Catholic faith that I can’t do without, like the rosary.

To me, our situation feels often a bit like if we were two different professional and first league football teams. We may have different shirts on, but we play the same sport at the same professional level Sometimes one has the better, sometimes the other…

Hi pat, and welcome to the forum. I too have a high opinion of both Catholicism and Orthodoxy. If I had been born, say, Baptist, I would have a hard time deciding whether to convert to Catholicism or Orthodoxy. (Perhaps its just as well that I was born Catholic so I don’t have to wrestle with that choice. )

 

[Nine_Two]

Another example of how we try to speculate the value of other church’s practice/prayer and then trying to compare the value to our own practice/prayer. A needless exercise in futility. The reason often times threads on Orthodox ended up being closed.

My intention was not to compare value. I apologize if that’s what came across. I only meant to display my own ignorance on just what the exact value of the rosary is to Catholics. The Jesus prayer is the single most important personal prayer for an Orthodox Christian. I don’t know whether or not a similar claim can be made of the rosary prayer or not, I just know that it is important.

Obviously comparing prayers is a pretty useless exercise. “Which is greater, a prayer to Saint Francis of Assisi, or a prayer to St. Seraphim of Sarov?” That would be nonsense.

 

[dzheremi]

From the other side of the Nile (though I suspect you didn’t have us in mind, OP; we never get invited to play in any of the Chalcedonians’ reindeer games. sobbing):

• We’ve got a Pope, you’ve got a Pope. (Don’t read too much into this one, though; we don’t look at our Pope in the same way as you guys do yours re: universal jurisdiction, infalliblity, etc.)
• You guys wear mitres, we wear mitres (they’ve got a different name in Arabic,but I don’t remember what it is).
• We share many, many saints in common, including early bishops of Rome.
• We both revere St. Peter as the prince of the apostles
• Monasticism (though your monasticism is not the same as ours, they share a common source in the Egyptian desert)

In a practical sense, we’re probably more dissimilar than similar (and I personally agree with the thoughts of EP Bartholomew posted elsewhere in this thread, though I haven’t heard other Oriental Orthodox people’s take on it; since we don’t necessarily follow Constantinople in anything, I’d imagine that most Oriental Orthodox probably haven’t read the speech), though we each recognize in the other common apostolic foundations, even if we don’t recognize each other as holding to the same apostolic faith today (the Orthodox Church does not deal in concepts of “validity” or apostolicity without continuity with the apostolic faith, so the kind of apostolic foundations I mean are historical, in that we both trace our founding back to the missionary work of St. Peter, St. Paul, St. Thaddeus, St. Thomas, etc).

 

[Reuben_J]

My intention was not to compare value. I apologize if that’s what came across. I only meant to display my own ignorance on just what the exact value of the rosary is to Catholics. The Jesus prayer is the single most important personal prayer for an Orthodox Christian. I don’t know whether or not a similar claim can be made of the rosary prayer or not, I just know that it is important.

Obviously comparing prayers is a pretty useless exercise. “Which is greater, a prayer to Saint Francis of Assisi, or a prayer to St. Seraphim of Sarov?” That would be nonsense.

You didn’t. You were responding to the other poster and unfortunately made the ‘speculation’ too, the part I highlighted. From my observation, this is usually the nature of inter Catholic-Orthodox threads which does not help much. Both sides guard their turfs with equal zeal and could not resist the temptation to throw in comment on the other’ which in turn is never received graciously; not to mention the comment is often not an accurate description of what the owner of the turf perceives it to be.

Unnecessary argument can be avoided if both should refrain from inferring what the other’ belief is. I mean there is no gain in doing all that and besides, the thread would become so uncharitable which inevitably ended up being closed.

 

[Reuben_J]

From the other side of the Nile (though I suspect you didn’t have us in mind, OP; we never get invited to play in any of the Chalcedonians’ reindeer games. sobbing):

That’s right, I suppose. In a Catholic-Orthodox discussion, the Orthodox is often meant the Eastern Orthodox. The Oriental Orthodox is seldom in the contention, perhaps becaue not much is known about it or that it just not matter to the Catholic’s perspective as it is too distant to have any bearing on them at this moment. But the Eastern Orthodox, yes, there is dialogue going on, and they are much closer to home.

 

[prodromos]

That’s right, I suppose. In a Catholic-Orthodox discussion, the Orthodox is often meant the Eastern Orthodox. The Oriental Orthodox is seldom in the contention, perhaps becaue not much is known about it or that it just not matter to the Catholic’s perspective as it is too distant to have any bearing on them at this moment. But the Eastern Orthodox, yes, there is dialogue going on, and they are much closer to home.

Ironically, “oriental” is simply another word meaning “eastern”

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Ironically, “oriental” is simply another word meaning “eastern”

Juntos pero no revueltos.

 

[dzheremi]

That’s right, I suppose. In a Catholic-Orthodox discussion, the Orthodox is often meant the Eastern Orthodox. The Oriental Orthodox is seldom in the contention, perhaps becaue not much is known about it or that it just not matter to the Catholic’s perspective as it is too distant to have any bearing on them at this moment. But the Eastern Orthodox, yes, there is dialogue going on, and they are much closer to home.
prodromos;11454558:

Ironically, “oriental” is simply another word meaning “eastern”

Yes, and among ourselves we just say “Orthodox”. This “Oriental” business is for the benefit of outsiders to distinguish us from the Chalcedonian communion who also call themselves “Orthodox”. Historically, and to some degree contemporarily, all Chalcedonians are considered the same by non-Chalcedonian Orthodox, whether Latin or Byzantine (this is less so in the modern era, particularly in the COC and Tewahedo churches thanks to increased contact with EO in their diasporas, but is still reflected to some degree in the fact that the other OO churches receive EO and RCs alike by charismation, rather than by rebaptism). There are some (probably a minority) who are historically informed who still see things this way.

 

[pat28]

To say we don’t give the Jesus prayer as much value as the rosary is incorrect. The emphasis of where it stands in our spiritual life may well be very different (though the context of use is the same), but the value placed on it is at least the same, if not greater than the rosary.

Apologies if this came out the wrong way. I certainly know of the importance of the Jesus Prayer for Orthodox Christians and you are absolutely right on this! I am reminded for instance of the monks of Mount Athos who say the prayer all the time but also of non-monks who recite it in their prayer. I myself started taking up the practice of reciting the Jesus Prayer a few times throughout the day.

I think what I meant is more the ritual of chanting on the beads. While I am aware that some Orthodox Christians do use chanting beads (especially monks), it took me some time to find Orthodox Christians who could explain to me their practice of using a chain of beads. My wife herself was often wondering what I was doing when I was reciting the rosary. I realized therefore that the practice of the beads was not as common as in our religion.

For instance, when I go to the Catholic church, I will see many people with rosaries in their hands; in all the years I have been to Orthodox church, I only remember seeing one woman with the chain of beads in her hands. This obviously doesn’t mean that Orthodox Christians may not recite the Jesus Prayer silently in church without a rosary, but it shows that the counting of prayers with the help of a rosary is less common. Maybe the difference is also that we recite other prayers along the Hail Mary, and that’s where a chain of beads comes handy, in order to keep count of the number of prayers for each mistery. My understanding is that in the Orthodox tradition the focus is on continual chanting of the same prayer and maybe that’s where there is less of a need for a chain of beads.

 

[prodromos]

Juntos pero no revueltos.

Well, not yet.

 

[Nine_Two]

I think what I meant is more the ritual of chanting on the beads. While I am aware that some Orthodox Christians do use chanting beads (especially monks), it took me some time to find Orthodox Christians who could explain to me their practice of using a chain of beads. My wife herself was often wondering what I was doing when I was reciting the rosary. I realized therefore that the practice of the beads was not as common as in our religion.

I’m not sure the counting of a prayer determines its importance. Our Father is probably the most important single communal prayer in both Churches, yet you would never count it out. However I will say that I’m surprised it took so long to find someone who could explain a prayer rope to you. I suspect part of this may be Orthodox reluctance to talk about their personal prayer life with those who aren’t their priest. When you ask a question like “How do you use a prayer rope” it is possibly they took it as a personal inquiry into their Prayer Rule, the other alternative is you were dealing with people who were unchurched. I hope it was the former more than the later, most likely it was both.

For instance, when I go to the Catholic church, I will see many people with rosaries in their hands; in all the years I have been to Orthodox church, I only remember seeing one woman with the chain of beads in her hands. This obviously doesn’t mean that Orthodox Christians may not recite the Jesus Prayer silently in church without a rosary, but it shows that the counting of prayers with the help of a rosary is less common. Maybe the difference is also that we recite other prayers along the Hail Mary, and that’s where a chain of beads comes handy, in order to keep count of the number of prayers for each mistery. My understanding is that in the Orthodox tradition the focus is on continual chanting of the same prayer and maybe that’s where there is less of a need for a chain of beads.

You’re unlikely to see many (if any) people with prayer ropes at an Orthodox Church. We don’t engage in independent prayer at the Divine Liturgy for the most part. Christ instructed us to pray in secret, so that is what we do.

 

[dzheremi]

In the Coptic Orthodox tradition in which the prayer rope originated (it is an Egyptian desert father, St. Pachomios, who is credited with creating it), neither the Jesus Prayer nor the Rosary occupy a central place in our worship (the Rosary not at all, and my priest says that the Jesus Prayer is a good prayer to pray extemporaneously, but of primary importance are our established traditional prayers, such as the Thanksgiving Prayer). Copts use it instead to mark the 41 Kyrie Eleisons that are part of every canonical hour, though I myself use instead a small hand cross that a friend sent to me from one of the monasteries in Egypt, as we mark each Kyrie Eleison liturgically with the sign of the Cross, so I’ve gotten used to keeping track of them that way.

 

[Nine_Two]

I’ve never thought to use my prayer rope to mark the Kyries. I’ll have to remember to do that. It feels so unnatural when you break them up into smaller groups so you can count in your head.

 

[dzheremi]

Yeah. I don’t own a prayer rope, but I have seen videos and photos of Coptic monks using them, and I know we don’t have the Jesus prayer during any of the regular hours of the Agepya, which is the main guide for daily prayer (it might be in the Veil for all I know - I’ve never prayed that, as it concerns the monks - but I know that it’s not in any of the prayer books I’ve seen or used).

For counting, it also helps that the Kyrie Eleison as it is in the Coptic usage has its own melody with only a few variations during the year (I know Kiahk has its own melody, and probably some others that I’m not remembering, and it breaks them up quite nicely by alternating Greek and Coptic and/or Arabic or English/Spanish/whatever your native language is; I don’t do them in Arabic outside of the liturgy, but I do sometimes do them in Coptic in addition to English, so you have three Kyrie Eleisons per measure, then the Coptic “Efnouti nai nan”, which means the same thing, or English “Hear us and have mercy”/“Have mercy upon us” – that makes it easy to just remember ten "Efnouti nai nan"s or ten of the English phrase marks 40, and then the final Kyrie Eleison which has its own pattern that I cannot explain in words but anyone who’s been to a Coptic liturgy knows that’s the cue for “after this, on to the next prayer”

I dunno, it all makes sense after you’ve been to liturgy once or twice.