What are the spiritual benefits of praying to the saints and Mary?

[Jon_S_1]

Chong,

As for your claim that the Jewish people never have prayed to saints, you are wrong. The idea that it is absent from the first century is false.

Let’s consult our Jewish friends directly.

m.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/562222/jewish/Is-it-okay-to-ask-a-deceased-tzaddik-to-pray-on-my-behalf.htm

Yes, Jewish customs can be perplexing. Judaism is all about having a direct connection to G-d. An intermediary is a form of idolatry (see “Unidolatry” for more explanation of why this is forbidden.). Yet for as long as there are records, Jews have been in the habit of asking righteous men and women to have a chat with G-d on their behalf.

We see that the Jewish people asked Moses to intercede many times and he accepted their request. If he hadn’t, we wouldn’t be here–so G-d obviously figured it was okay. The Talmud (Baba Batra 116a) tells us that “If there is someone ill in your house, go to the wise man of the city and ask that he should pray for him.” Of course, this person also needs to pray for himself, as his family should as well–and any Jew who knows that another Jew is ill should pray for him. But you need to go to that wise man as well.

The same with visiting graves: On the one hand, as you pointed out, the Torah tells us not to “beseech the dead.” It’s listed along with all the other “abominations” practiced by the people that lived in Canaan before we came there. And yet, we have an ancient and popular custom to visit the graves of righteous people and pray there.

Just how ancient and popular is this custom? The Torah tells us that Caleb, one of the twelve spies that Moses sent to spy out the Land of Canaan, made a personal detour to Hebron. What was his interest in Hebron? The Talmud (Sotah 34b) tells that he wished to pray at the cave where Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rebecca, Jacob and Leah are buried. He prayed there for mercy on his soul and he was saved from the fateful decision of the other spies.

The Talmud also states that it is customary to visit a cemetery on a fast day (Taanit 16a). Why? Typical of the Talmud (and anything that involves Jewish people), two opinions are provided: Some say that this is simply to remind those who are fasting of their own mortality–a graveyard can be a magically effective cold-bucket of inspiration when you’re feeling smug and self-assured. But others say that this is in order to connect to ask the souls of the righteous who are buried there that they intercede on our behalf. In fact, the Zohar states that if it were not for the intercession of those souls who reside in that afterworld, our world would not endure for a moment.

Please read the entire article. It was only after I became Catholic from Evangelical did I study enough of Judaism to see how very similar our practices are (a continuation “fulfillment” of the old covenant, as opposed to evangelicalism that holds a false narrative of Jewish tradition)

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Chong,

As for your claim that the Jewish people never have prayed to saints, you are wrong. The idea that it is absent from the first century is false.

Let’s consult our Jewish friends directly.

m.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/562222/jewish/Is-it-okay-to-ask-a-deceased-tzaddik-to-pray-on-my-behalf.htm

Please read the entire article. It was only after I became Catholic from Evangelical did I study enough of Judaism to see how very similar our practices are (a continuation “fulfillment” of the old covenant, as opposed to evangelicalism that holds a false narrative of Jewish tradition)

Great post
I like the way Jesus informed the first century Sadducees who denied the resurrection, that they read the scriptures all wrong; "when the God of Isaac, Jacob and Moses is God of the Living. God is not God of the dead! Whether we are asleep or awake, they are not dead, for to God all are alive.

The blessed Virgin Mary and the Saints, Martyrs and virgins are not dead, but more alive than we are in God. This life in the resurrection and Saints is confirmed at the Transfiguration when Moses and Elijah visited and spoke with Jesus in an apparition before the disciples, who were eyewitnesses to Jesus resurrection, St. Stephen’s apparition of heaven before his martyrdom followed by many more apparitions of the heavenly saints confirmed by miracles and signs from heaven.

The Spiritual benefits are hope, charity, love with a promise from God in the reality of eternal life.

 

[ericc]

‘asking’ is via conversing. Its like the way we are communicating on the internet. you send the message, I decode it and respond. I may chose not to respond, or may respond inappropriately.
You ask your friends or comrades for assistance. However, assistance may also come when people sympathize with your condition. The same case applies to prayers.
Asking the ‘saints’ to pray for you is:

1. monologue as there is no conversation.

We are asking them to pray with us, for us, not to us. When you pray the Our Father, you did not have a “conversation” with Father did you?

1. elevating the ‘saints’ to god-like in that they have become omnipresent, all hearing, all seeing, all able, not limited by time and space etc.

No that’s not true. We do not elevate anyone to God-like status. Even when Saints have performed miracles, these miracles are manifested through them by God. They do not assume God-like status. Whatever powers given to them are for the glory of God. In the NT, you see the Apostles with special powers after the HS descended on them as well as many other Christians. No one accorded them God-like status. It is unfortunate that you view them that way. No one proclaim Peter is Godlike because his shadow could heal. Everybody proclaims the glory of God not the glory of the person who wrought the miracle.

You ask members of your church to pray for one another. No one gets god-like status either even if the prayers bring results. The Saints in heaven have an added advantage. They are confirmed friends of God and in very close contact. It is insane not to network with them. You want them to cheer you on, support your journey. They are the ideal people to work with because they have been there, done that. They are our elders who have gone before us. We honor and respect them.

1. making the departed be workers for you.

We are all workers in God’s vineyard. We are asked to help and strengthened each other in our faith. It is unfortunate that you view them as slaves. We are all members of the Mystical Body of Christ. We do not chop any of us off when some members have gone to sleep because we are all alive spiritually although the flesh has fallen asleep. It is sad that some choose to cut themselves off because they couldn’t agree with each other and view that their thinking/interpretation is the only correct one and others in error without realizing that they have fallen into the same hole that they warned others about.

In the Apostle Creed we confess the communion of saints. We commune together. How they hear us, how they present our prayers to God, they have the details. I do not need to know the technology of how it works. When/if I get there, I’d know how it is done. All in good time.

In short, Jesus told the disciple to pray lest they fall into temptation. He prayed many times and they saw him pray. He had taught the disciples how to pray and wished that they would continue with his example.

Going back to your critique on lack of conversation. The mechanism of prayer is such that it is designed that way. Each time you pray the Our Father, you don’t get a confirmation from Father that he received your prayer in tact and provide you with an acknowledgement that he has heard you. Each time you pray to Jesus, you don’t get a ‘read receipt’ either. But that doesn’t stop you from praying either. But we being part of the Mystical Body of Christ know that the prayers are being heard throughout his Body, because Christ is the Head. And we know actions have been taken because the results are visible and can be seen and felt.

 

[Techno2000]

That’s Gregory’s view. Jesus’s words are rather different:
John14:3: And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Matt 24:30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31: And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus words are prophetic and shall abide for ever. One day Jesus will come with His glory and with the sounds of the trumpets, and the dead shall arise.

Who knows more about the intercession of the Saints…your Pastor or St. Jerome who translated the whole Bible into Latin ?

Jerome :

You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs? (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).

 

[pablope]

Thanks Randy.

I’ll look for that post, though I remember replying to that thread.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Though it may necessitate another thread, those books are deuterocanonical and as such are not used by many non-Catholics. They were not part of the Hebrew sacred scriptures.
However, the practice is totally absent in the 1st century, had it been, Jesus and the apostles would have mentioned it and possibly encouraged the believers to continue with it. There were many other practices in the OT that are not of the same significance today as they were during the OT. Example: circumcision on the 8th day, offering sacrifices of burnt offerings, lineage of priesthood, wars etc.

The Eastern Orthodox Approach to the Bible
February 24, 2013 Length: 1:35:50
ancientfaith.com/podcasts…h_to_the_bible
Dr Jeannie Constantinou, Postdoctoral Teaching Fellow, Theology, and Religious Studies, University of San Diego and AFR podcaster (Search The Scriptures), speaks with Kevin about all things biblical, and how the Orthodox Tradition relates to and interprets the Holy Scriptures.

Excerpt:

About the prayers for the dead, that was a practice in Judaism at the time of the early Church. That’s why the Church does that today, and we know it was a practice, because it’s reflected in the Maccabees. The Jews were praying, and actually until fairly recently—I had to research this for one point—until the 18th century, most European Jews said prayers for the dead. A lot of Jewish customs and practices were rejected because they were identified too much with Christianity, but in the early Church they prayed for the dead because the Jews were praying for the dead.

 

[joe371]

Chong

1. monologue as there is no conversation.

The same applies to Jesus: Talking to Jesus, or praying to Jesus is monologue, “as there is no conversation” - correct?

elevating the ‘saints’ to god-like in that they have become omnipresent, all hearing, all seeing, all able, not limited by time and space etc.

making the departed be workers for you.

If you don’t believe that the saints, perfectly conformed to God’s divine Will, are working via their prayers, OK. However, they all participate in the divine nature of God. Partakers in God’s divine nature is got to be pretty cool thus allowing them to do amazing things. If Jesus can hear your prayers, then so can the saints, for they are partakers of His divine nature.

2 Peter “Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.”

In short, Jesus told the disciple to pray lest they fall into temptation. He prayed many times and they saw him pray. He had taught the disciples how to pray and wished that they would continue with his example.

 

[Chong]

I can understand the feeling. I tend to describe it as “embarrassment” or “shyness” depending on upbringing or culture.

If you have teenage kids, daughters especially, if they have a problem, father is probably the last person to check with. Typically, that would be with friends, elder sisters, mum in that order of preferences. Dad is always last, no choice option.

If your child is having problems with his school work, isn’t it natural for him to ask his older siblings who have done it previously for help before going higher up? If I have a serious need, such as a very sick child, I’d ask EVERYONE, every IOUs I can think of, Whoever can help, I’d ask. Perhaps Father would like to see how badly I am in need of help. He may intervene immediately or he may let me experience some discomfort first to strengthen me for future battles.

I just find it silly not to make full use of resources made available FOC to help us on our spiritual journey. Don’t you find it strange when you need help, it is only me and you God but in your church , you pray for everyone and ask people to pray for you, (Whether you can hear their prayers is a separate thing. Because someone ever asked how the saints can hear us because they are dead. This is to preempt the hearing range issue.)

Our human situation is very different from God’s situation. In human terms, the children do so, but adults do not do the that. When we know God, we build a personal relationship with Him. Even good fathers here on earth build a relationship with their children, such that the children open up to them.
From the time of Adam and Eve, God has always desired to fellowship with man. Its only sin that would separate God from his people. We see Enoch walking with God. We see God talking to Noah, to Abraham etc. Lastly, he comes to dwell in the midst of His people.
The Bible calls him Emmanuel, God with his people; that is Jesus coming to his people. Then he sends the Spirit of God to dwell in the hearts of people who love him.

Thus the concept of using the ‘saints in heaven’ to intercede for us is not based on God’s character of his love of the people he created. Jer 33:3 says, “Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not”. God character does not change, and even today he’s saying the same.

 

[Chong]

Chong,

Regarding your 3 points.

1. same objection can be said for prayer in general.
2. it does not elevate the saints to anything but people in heaven. It is God who allows them to hear prayers (is God incapable of doing that??)
3. the saints in heaven do work. Non stop, for those on earth. See below

Revelation 5:8 When He had taken the [a]book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Let me start with No. 3: The prayers of saints being offered to God are not the prayers of saints in heaven but of saints on earth. Otherwise if the saints are present in heaven, they would offer the prayers themselves to the throne that is just there.
The 24 elders and the 4 living creatures is another topic. So, the saints are nowhere in this scenario.
No. 2. God has revealed himself to us through Jesus. The same Jesus does not teach us that there are saints in heaven interceding for us. God is capable of doing anything, but his will is revealed though Christ.
No. 1. If we liken the saints in heaven to other people on earth, just as I can see your situation and pray for you even before you tell me to pray for you, then the all-seeing saints would be able to see our situations and then pray for us before we even ask them to do so.
Jesus said, when you pray, say: Our Father who is at in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is done in heaven…
The whole prayer is directed to God the Father. No space is left for intercession of a saint in heaven.

 

[ericc]

Our human situation is very different from God’s situation. In human terms, the children do so, but adults do not do the that.

How are we different from children? Does it mean older is better? In fact, Jesus tells us to be like children. No matter how old we are, we are like children in his eyes. No matter how wise we think we are, aren’t we children in comparison to him?

When we know God, we build a personal relationship with Him. Even good fathers here on earth build a relationship with their children, such that the children open up to them.
From the time of Adam and Eve, God has always desired to fellowship with man. Its only sin that would separate God from his people. We see Enoch walking with God. We see God talking to Noah, to Abraham etc. Lastly, he comes to dwell in the midst of His people.
The Bible calls him Emmanuel, God with his people; that is Jesus coming to his people. Then he sends the Spirit of God to dwell in the hearts of people who love him.

Catholics build a personal relationship with God, closer than anyone can imagine. When he ask us to eat his body, we ask how frequently. We chew and swallow the Body of Christ. Protestants say that is not what you mean surely? If you keep on second guessing his instructions, how close a relationship do you really think you are going to have? He said do it in memory of him. How often do you do that?

He tells you to confess sins to one another, you tell him, nope, I am going to talk to you only and no one else. He tells you to listen to his Church that he built on Peter, you don’t . You say I am not going to listen to his Chief Shepherd. I am going to be my own shepherd. I will not listen to Traditions and I am going to interpret the Scriptures MY way. He says if you have any disputes that you can’t resolve, take it to the Church. You take it OUTSIDE the Church. You put it to a vote and majority wins. At least in the old days, they cast lots and let God have a say. Now he doesn’t.

So now you have churches that allows divorce, see no wrong in gay relationships, keep quiet on or permit abortions. Is this the personal relationship that outvotes God in allowing such practices? Aren’t these man made traditions and very recent at that? I don’t know whether your church subscribes to these or not and I certainly hope not. So if I appear a little agitated, pleas do excuse me because when people do such things and claim a personal relationship with God, it is very difficult to swallow it because all these are not of God.

Thus the concept of using the ‘saints in heaven’ to intercede for us is not based on God’s character of his love of the people he created.
Jer 33:3 says, “Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not”. God character does not change, and even today he’s saying the same.

Actually I don’t understand what your point is when you made this statement. In a previous post, I mentioned because we are all members of the Mystical Body of Christ, prayers for one another is part and parcel of Christian life. Even those who have fallen asleep are not dead to us. If you accept this, you wouldn’t have a problem praying with the saints. After all you do subscribe to the "communion of saints " in the Apostles’ Creed right?

Saints in heaven is not a concept. It is reality. See Revelations. Prayers to saints is also not a concept. in St Paul’s letters, you can see him requesting prayers for/from EVERYONE (1 Timothy 2:1-4)(Ephesians 6:18-20). if you understand the significance of the communion of saints, you would understand this simple practice from the early Christians till now.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Let me start with No. 3: The prayers of saints being offered to God are not the prayers of saints in heaven but of saints on earth. Otherwise if the saints are present in heaven, they would offer the prayers themselves to the throne that is just there.

Revelation 5:8
8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people.

The prayers being offered to God are those of the saints on earth. That’s significant. Most non-Catholics deny that the saints in heaven can even hear our prayers, but you have just acknowledged that somehow (we don’t really know how exactly), the saints in heaven are aware of our prayers on earth, and they offer them to God.

Kinda suggests that talking to our friends in heaven is okay, doesn’t it? :yup:

No. 2. God has revealed himself to us through Jesus. The same Jesus does not teach us that there are saints in heaven interceding for us. God is capable of doing anything, but his will is revealed though Christ.

There are many subjects that Jesus did not address explicitly. If Jesus was silent on an issue, then I can claim that Jesus did not prohibit prayer to the saints just as easily as you can claim that Jesus did not encourage it.

Scripture is silent on the subject, and thus, it does not prove YOUR point. :nope:

No. 1. If we liken the saints in heaven to other people on earth, just as I can see your situation and pray for you even before you tell me to pray for you, then the all-seeing saints would be able to see our situations and then pray for us before we even ask them to do so.

We do not know if they are “all-seeing” or not, do we? However, we know that the angels are ministering servants of those here on earth.

Hebrews 1:14
14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

So, whether by angelic communications or directly through the saints themselves, those in heaven are aware of our prayers and needs here on earth.

Jesus said, when you pray, say: Our Father who is at in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is done in heaven…
The whole prayer is directed to God the Father. No space is left for intercession of a saint in heaven.

So what, Chong? Is that the only thing you EVER say in prayer? Do you simply repeat the Lord’s prayer over and over and over and over in your Pentecostal prayer meetings?

And when Jesus spent the night in prayer before choosing the twelve or in the Garden of Gethsemane, did he simply prayer that one prayer again and again and again?

 

[Randy_Carson]

The whole prayer is directed to God the Father. No space is left for intercession of a saint in heaven.

Is all prayer then, directed to the Father alone?

Acts 7:59-60
59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.

Jesus is God, but obviously, we don’t have to pray to the Father alone.

 

[Techno2000]

The whole prayer is directed to God the Father. No space is left for intercession of a saint in heaven.

Chong, I want to ask you again… who should I believe more about the intercession of the saints , you and your Pastor… or… St. Jerome ???

Jerome :

You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs? (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).

 

[Chong]

How are we different from children? Does it mean older is better? In fact, Jesus tells us to be like children. No matter how old we are, we are like children in his eyes. No matter how wise we think we are, aren’t we children in comparison to him?

We’re the children of God. God our Father is always there for us and he loves us very much. We don’t require saints in heaven to call the attention of our loving and caring Father on our behalf.

Catholics build a personal relationship with God, closer than anyone can imagine. When he ask us to eat his body, we ask how frequently. We chew and swallow the Body of Christ. Protestants say that is not what you mean surely? If you keep on second guessing his instructions, how close a relationship do you really think you are going to have? He said do it in memory of him. How often do you do that?

When Jesus instituted the Lord’s table, he also partook of it. It looks abit ironical for Jesus to say its his own body and blood then he eats and drinks it.
Christ said this is my body that is broken for you; and this is my blood of the new and everlasting covenant. That statement is very different from saying from saying that I am in this bread. Swallowing means you integrate the substance into your body system.
Thus, it means you become one with Christ… Symbolically showing how the relationship should be. Christ is enthroned in heaven and would not be contained in a physical object.

He tells you to confess sins to one another, you tell him, nope, I am going to talk to you only and no one else. He tells you to listen to his Church that he built on Peter, you don’t . You say I am not going to listen to his Chief Shepherd. I am going to be my own shepherd. I will not listen to Traditions and I am going to interpret the Scriptures MY way. He says if you have any disputes that you can’t resolve, take it to the Church. You take it OUTSIDE the Church. You put it to a vote and majority wins. At least in the old days, they cast lots and let God have a say. Now he doesn’t.

My concept based on God’s word is rather different:
Luk 9:35: And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
John 4:23: But the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Luk 21:33: Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Actually, the major differences between the protestants and Catholics is based on the Sacred Traditions. If you do a research of the history of the catholic teachings that are not accepted by the protestants, you’ll find that they emerged from the 3rd century AD. This is the time when persecution of the church was abolished and Christianity was adopted as the state religion of the Roman Empire. The Emperor issued many decrees on behalf of the church, thus enforcing whatever it he saw good for the church and the Empire. eg. having a common religion was good for unity in the Empire.

So now you have churches that allows divorce, see no wrong in gay relationships, keep quiet on or permit abortions. Is this the personal relationship that outvotes God in allowing such practices? Aren’t these man made traditions and very recent at that? I don’t know whether your church subscribes to these or not and I certainly hope not. So if I appear a little agitated, pleas do excuse me because when people do such things and claim a personal relationship with God, it is very difficult to swallow it because all these are not of God.

First, I don’t subscribe to ungodly and un-biblical practices. The bible prophecies about the last days, so this is a fulfillment of the prophecies. A person who has a relationship with God does not go against his Word, so those who practice such do not do it based on the guidance of the word of God, but do it to conform to the standards of the world.
A relationship with God is very different. It involves the study of the Word, Prayer full of self examination, and upholding truth at all times. The standards are outlined in the teachings of Apostle Paul.

Actually I don’t understand what your point is when you made this statement. In a previous post, I mentioned because we are all members of the Mystical Body of Christ, prayers for one another is part and parcel of Christian life. Even those who have fallen asleep are not dead to us. If you accept this, you wouldn’t have a problem praying with the saints. After all you do subscribe to the "communion of saints " in the Apostles’ Creed right?

The point that I made was to imply that God is ready to listen to our calls.
The term “communion of saints” to me involves the saints who are alive on earth. Those who have departed the bible tell us in Thessalonians that they shall rise when Christ will come with his glory. If they are with Him in heaven, then they will not rise.

Saints in heaven is not a concept. It is reality. See Revelations. Prayers to saints is also not a concept. in St Paul’s letters, you can see him requesting prayers for/from EVERYONE (1 Timothy 2:1-4)(Ephesians 6:18-20). if you understand the significance of the communion of saints, you would understand this simple practice from the early Christians till now.

The usage of the word “saints” in the bible is totally different form the usage of the same word in Catholic. In Catholicism, a saint is one who’s departed and is believed to be in heaven. The process is long and involving.
On the contrary, in biblical terms, a saint is a believer in Christ.

 

[Jon_S_1]

We’re the children of God. God our Father is always there for us and he loves us very much. We don’t require saints in heaven to call the attention of our loving and caring Father on our behalf.

To be consistent, Don’t ever pray to Jesus or ask anyone on earth EVER to pray for you.

When Jesus instituted the Lord’s table, he also partook of it. It looks abit ironical for Jesus to say its his own body and blood then he eats and drinks it.
Christ said this is my body that is broken for you; and this is my blood of the new and everlasting covenant. That statement is very different from saying from saying that I am in this bread. Swallowing means you integrate the substance into your body system.
Thus, it means you become one with Christ… Symbolically showing how the relationship should be. Christ is enthroned in heaven and would not be contained in a physical object.

Except, Christ says the exact opposite of it being a symbol;

John 6;

Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55 ** For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. **

St Paul also said it was more than just symbol in 1 Corinthians 11

Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.[l] 28 A person should examine himself,[m] and so eat the bread and drink the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment[n] on himself.

Ignatius of Antioch around the year 100AD (He knew Polycarp and John, and was the second Bishop of Antioch where they were first called Christians) This would be like the second pastor of your church and the first pastor was an apostle.

“Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead.”

“Letter to the Smyrnaeans”, paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D.

Then we have of course, the fact that 100% of Christian writings and practice prior to the 1500’s taught that Jesus was really present in the Eucharist.

Your idea is a novelty of modernity and came about because of a rejection of the priesthood. It is a cheap and phony way of looking at the Eucharist. You must completely reject Facts to hold your belief. Even the oldest protestant sects hold a similar or the same belief as us along with the Orthodox, Coptics, etc… Basically 90% of Christendom holds a belief in the real presence…why don’t you?

Actually, the major differences between the protestants and Catholics is based on the Sacred Traditions. If you do a research of the history of the catholic teachings that are not accepted by the protestants, you’ll find that they emerged from the 3rd century AD. This is the time when persecution of the church was abolished and Christianity was adopted as the state religion of the Roman Empire. The Emperor issued many decrees on behalf of the church, thus enforcing whatever it he saw good for the church and the Empire. eg. having a common religion was good for unity in the Empire.

Its clear your history is lacking as the 3rd century refers to the 200’s and Christianity wasn’t legalized until the latter part of the 4th century. Your explanation is not grounded in history at all.

But you are right that the difference is Tradition. Our Tradition dates to the Apostles. Your tradition dates to the Reformation at the earliest but more likely a pastor in the 19th or 20th century with a “new idea” to “grow a church” and put money in his own pocket.

First, I don’t subscribe to ungodly and un-biblical practices. The bible prophecies about the last days, so this is a fulfillment of the prophecies. A person who has a relationship with God does not go against his Word, so those who practice such do not do it based on the guidance of the word of God, but do it to conform to the standards of the world.
A relationship with God is very different. It involves the study of the Word, Prayer full of self examination, and upholding truth at all times. The standards are outlined in the teachings of Apostle Paul.

There are Catholics and Protestants who don’t have a relationship with God. I was an evangelical who had no relationship with God until I became a Catholic. Don’t make judgements and stereotypes. There are tons of vibrant Catholics with a relationship with God today as there always has been. People like St Patrick who saved the scriptures from destruction…he was Catholic

 

[Jon_S_1]

The point that I made was to imply that God is ready to listen to our calls.
The term “communion of saints” to me involves the saints who are alive on earth. Those who have departed the bible tell us in Thessalonians that they shall rise when Christ will come with his glory. If they are with Him in heaven, then they will not rise.

Of course God is ready to listen to us. That is why I pray to him, and why I ask my friends and family to pray for me, and why I ask the Angels and Saints in heaven to pray for me too. You never responded to the article about how Jewish people hold this same practice by the way…too mind blowing I suppose…

The way you use Communion of Saints is not at all how the Council who wrote it in the Creed defined it.

You can’t just go redefining things. I can’t go and say the definition x is now y, nor should I ignore what the council said it to mean. If I’m going to recite their creed, I should understand why they wrote it that way.

Cyril of Jerusalem

Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition… (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).

Liturgy of St. Basil

By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).

Both of theses quotes are from the generation of the council of Nicea.,…

 

[ericc]

We’re the children of God. God our Father is always there for us and he loves us very much. We don’t require saints in heaven to call the attention of our loving and caring Father on our behalf.

And yet you ask people to pray for you or you for others. Why the hypocrisy?

When Jesus instituted the Lord’s table, he also partook of it. It looks abit ironical for Jesus to say its his own body and blood then he eats and drinks it.
Christ said this is my body that is broken for you; and this is my blood of the new and everlasting covenant. That statement is very different from saying from saying that I am in this bread. Swallowing means you integrate the substance into your body system.
Thus, it means you become one with Christ… Symbolically showing how the relationship should be. Christ is enthroned in heaven and would not be contained in a physical object.

YOU made it symbolic. Not Jesus. He tells us to eat his body, not once but a few times. In John 6:31 Jesus reminded the Jews that their fathers ate the manna in the wilderness. That was real food. He described it as his Father given them the true bread from heaven and not Moses. For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and give life to the world. John 6:32. In John 6:48-51 he reinforced the message the Jews murmured in John 6:41. There is nothing symbolic here. Their fathers ate the heavenly manna previously. Now Jesus is teaching them that he is the bread of life that has come down from heaven and that we must eat this living bread to live forever. John 6:52-58 says most clearly. For my flesh is food indeed. The manna wasn’t symbolic, it was real food too.

What is the ironic part about Jesus eating his own body? Are you putting him into a box what he can or can not do? He can rise from the dead. He can do heavenly things. You really need to restrain yourself from objecting to things you are not sure about. It is a hard saying. So are you going to go away also? John 6:60, 67. That why it is a mystery to us also how he does it at every mass.

My concept based on God’s word is rather different:
Luk 9:35: And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
John 4:23: But the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Luk 21:33: Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Actually, the major differences between the protestants and Catholics is based on the Sacred Traditions. If you do a research of the history of the catholic teachings that are not accepted by the protestants, you’ll find that they emerged from the 3rd century AD. This is the time when persecution of the church was abolished and Christianity was adopted as the state religion of the Roman Empire. The Emperor issued many decrees on behalf of the church, thus enforcing whatever it he saw good for the church and the Empire. eg. having a common religion was good for unity in the Empire.

What catholic teachings in the 3rd century are you talking about that are not accepted by the protestants? Please list them. Protestantism started in the 15th century. What were you doing between 3rd and 15th century? Unless you are siding with the heresies. When the Catholic Church was fighting the heresies, where were you? Where were the Protestant voices?

Please do your research on what the Emperor did and what the Church did. The Church is responsible for doctrine , not the Emperor. He helped no doubt in making the environment conducive for the Church. The Christian world benefited.

A relationship with God is very different. It involves the study of the Word, Prayer full of self examination, and upholding truth at all times. The standards are outlined in the teachings of Apostle Paul.

Protestants think they have a relation to God while excluding Catholics. It is time to go out into the real world and see for yourself that a billion Catholics also have a personal relation with God. You really need to take off those blinders and stop talking like a Pharisee. Luke 18:11

The point that I made was to imply that God is ready to listen to our calls.
The term “communion of saints” to me involves the saints who are alive on earth. Those who have departed the bible tell us in Thessalonians that they shall rise when Christ will come with his glory. If they are with Him in heaven, then they will not rise.

Why are you arbitrarily selecting saints that are still on earth? The saints in heaven they are alive, don’t you agree? In the Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah were there and alive and talking. Aren’t they dead? Obviously not. Why do you limit yourself to only those on earth? You are self imposing limits that are not there. Who came out with the doctrine that communion of saints only involve saints who are alive on earth? Source please.

The usage of the word “saints” in the bible is totally different form the usage of the same word in Catholic. In Catholicism, a saint is one who’s departed and is believed to be in heaven. The process is long and involving.
On the contrary, in biblical terms, a saint is a believer in Christ.

You don’t know much about Catholicism don’t you. You only know about our canonized saints. From the Baltimore Cathecism:

1. Q. What does the communion of saints mean?
   A. The communion of saints means the union which exists between the members of the Church on earth with one another, and with the blessed in heaven and with the suffering souls in purgatory.

If you want to understanding old Church creeds that came from the Catholic Church, don’t you think it wise to check with the originators what it meant rather than coming out with your own creations?

 

[Chong]

Is all prayer then, directed to the Father alone?

Acts 7:59-60
59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.

Jesus is God, but obviously, we don’t have to pray to the Father alone.

We agree; our God is a Trinity. Prayer to the Father, to Jesus or to the Holy Spirit is directed to the same God.
What I meant is that there’s no space for a prayer to be directed to another person.

 

[Chong]

Chong, I want to ask you again… who should I believe more about the intercession of the saints , you and your Pastor… or… St. Jerome ???

Jerome :

You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs? (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).

Jesus came to show us the way, so we should believe Jesus words more than anyone else.
He taught his disciples (and us too) how to pray. The immediate apostles taught the word of Jesus, and so should we.

 

[Techno2000]

Jesus came to show us the way, so we should believe Jesus words more than anyone else.
He taught his disciples (and us too) how to pray. The immediate apostles taught the word of Jesus, and so should we.

What happened after the apostles died ?