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Big_Dummy
Guest
personally, I can not see how one can justifly killing a child. I am curious what arguments pro-choice people make.
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sw85
Guest
I don’t know if there are ten but I’ll try.
(1) The most common argument is that a woman has a right to her body and cannot be told what to do with it. This is the argument from Nozick’s principle of self-ownership, which is deficient because it presumes a right to ownership for which it provides no basis. You can derive a right to self-ownership from natural law, of course, but it is not unlimited – certainly not so unlimited as to permit abortion.
(2) There is an argument from eugenics: that is, that abortion keeps down the population of undesirables (historically this was understood to refer to minorities and people with severe disabilities; today, the poor). This is an argument flatly negates the dignity which accrues to the human person merely by virtue of his membership in the human race; it treats people as a means, rather than end; and it is contrary to the spirit of compassion which all people are obliged to cultivate in themselves.
(3) There is an argument from mercy: that to abort a child will spare them the horrors of life in the modern world (or the horrors of poverty, although that is distinctly related to the eugenics argument), especially if they are saddled with some kind of debilitating condition that has been detected prenatally or if it is guaranteed to have a short or painful life. Again, this is contrary to the dignity of the human person, treats life as a means rather than an end, and subverts our duty to cultivate compassion. It is also also rank presumption, for it is not given to man to kill others except in a few very narrow circumstances.
(4) There is the utilitarian argument: that abortion is cheaper than welfare for the poor. This argument is abhorrent to the spirit of dignity and compassion and, again, treats people as a means to an end (economic productivity) rather than an end in themselves.
(5) Distinctly related to (1) above is the argument from harm – that forcing a woman to carry a child to term will result in some harm, whether physical (sterility, death) or mental (whatever that means), or that it will cause her to forego some future opportunities (e.g., a teenage mother who keeps her child must forego college). This argument is acceptable only when the abortion is necessary to save the life of the mother (even then, it is the mother’s choice to make); in all other cases it is contrary to the spirit of dignity and compassion.
These are really the only positive arguments for abortion that I’m aware of. Most of the rest is vapid emoting and sloganeering (“hands off my uterus!”) and attempts to refute the pro-life position, neither of which by themselves are arguments for a right to abortion.
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Insight
Guest
Planned Parenthood was founded by Margaret Sanger, a speaker for the woman’s division of the KKK. She argued that it was necessary to curtail undesirable races. Even today, all Planned Parenthoods are in minority neighborhoods.
God Bless
God Bless
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karebear92
Guest
To add to the first post, there is also the thought that the child is esentially a parasite living off of the mother. This is the most offensive thing I have heard someone say to defend pro-choice. I guess we will have to start asking other women how their parasite is doing until it takes its first breath, as to prevent offending anbody, of course
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Young_Thinker
Guest
Well, in addition to the arguments above, I find that many politicians claim that they are “personally opposed” to abortion but feel that it should still be legal. Likewise, they say that it is better for abortion to be legal so that it can be done safely (the “backroom abortion” argument), suggesting that most if not all abortionists before Roe v. Wade (or analogous judicious decisions or laws in other countries) were charlatan whose operations tended to kill the mother (a real scare tactic in my opinion; I am sure that the quack abortionist was not that common).
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estesbob
Guest
The top ten rasons are:
- Satan
- Racism
- Greed
- Fear
- Coercion
- Anger
- Embarassment
- Politics
9 .Ignorance - Pride
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svid2
Guest
Don’t you mean, the BOTTOM ten reasons?
Ask a dead baby. You know what kind of answer you’ll get? None!
Ask a dead baby. You know what kind of answer you’ll get? None!
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Catholic1954
Guest
I remember, when Rov v. Wade passed in the 70’s, the big argument was that it was to protect our sixteen year old daughters from seeking a back alley abortion from a non-doctor, “butcher”, who would use a coat hanger that would result in the girl bleeding to death or other medical emergencies, and since she was going to have an abortion anyway, wouldn’t it be better for her to go to a nice, safe, clean hosptal and have it done by a qualified doctor. How we have de-evolved to sucking out the brains of a newborn baby in a “partial birth” abortion, I have no idea. 
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Bluegoat
Guest
You know, it isn’t very useful to be nasty about a question like this. Politics of division won’t stop abortion. That should be enough to make people really want to understand the pro-choice position. Not only can you not refute a position you don’t understand, you can’t address real issues and truths that may be contained in those arguments.
sw85 gave a good list, so I won’t repeat what he said. But I’ll add:
sw85 gave a good list, so I won’t repeat what he said. But I’ll add:
- some people don’t feel that the fact of “being human” alone is that important. They would argue that something else, like self-consciousness, or feeling pain, is important. So such people might be willing to allow abortions before the period when the fetus attains those characteristics.
- Some people feel that abortion is basically bad, but can be allowed when it is an issue of choosing between grievous harm to the mother or the death of the child. They might also feel that in the end, only the mother can make the final decision - is this important enough? Will she risk her life? Practically speaking, it can be difficult to develop a medical or legal mechanism to deal with this. So such a person might think that the law cannot be used easily to regulate abortion, although moral principles ought to guide the mother in making the decision.
- Some people feel that abortions really represent other kinds of social failures, and that rather than making abortion illegal, we should address those failures. Such a person might feel that if a mother chooses abortion because of poverty, for example, we need to address poverty; refusing the abortion alone is just another kick in the teeth. People who tend to think relationally find this a compelling argument especially when those who are pro-life don’t seem to support social justice measures of any kind that would attack the underlying issue. They come to the conclusion that there motives are not really what they claim.
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
I don’t know about 10 reasons, but growing up in the 70s, it was reasoned that usually the abortion took place before the child was actually considered human, it was just a bunch of cells.
Also, in the case of rape, or if the child was malformed , or if the mother’s health was in danger, these were all considered good reasons to have an abortion.
Basically, a lot of free sex was going on, with poor use of birth control, which led to a lot of women using abortion as a form of birth control, when they had casual sex with a person they weren’t in a committed relationship with.
Then there was the argument that it would be better for a child not to be born to a poor person, or an underaged person, because they wouldn’t have all the advantages of a well-off married person, AND that Welfare would have to take care of these people, and create a class of Welfare mothers who lived off the system.
And of course, the overpopulation arguement was very popular then too!
Also, in the case of rape, or if the child was malformed , or if the mother’s health was in danger, these were all considered good reasons to have an abortion.
Basically, a lot of free sex was going on, with poor use of birth control, which led to a lot of women using abortion as a form of birth control, when they had casual sex with a person they weren’t in a committed relationship with.
Then there was the argument that it would be better for a child not to be born to a poor person, or an underaged person, because they wouldn’t have all the advantages of a well-off married person, AND that Welfare would have to take care of these people, and create a class of Welfare mothers who lived off the system.
And of course, the overpopulation arguement was very popular then too!
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stevekehl
Guest
:clapping: Inspired!
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Siochan_Leat
Guest
There is also the whole “Me, Myself and I” thing.
That’s all some people think about. They have sex outside of marriage because, “hey, it feels good, so why not?” and then when the natural consequences to that behavior (a pregnancy) happens, they think, “I can’t have a child now. I am too important to be bogged down by that!” So, they schlep over to the local PP and rid themselves of what could have been an amazing blessing had they brought the child into this world.
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exoflare
Guest
I’ve thought about this and Bob’s list was pretty good, but all those things can be summed up even more nicely into a list of three:
- Convenience
- Apathy
- Hatred
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JaneGrey
Guest
Great post, especially with the last point. I think this matches the views of pro-choice people most accurately.
Also it is really hard to engage with people who insist on branding every woman who seeks an abortion as selfish and promiscuous without trying to understand the real reasons.
Like it or not, having a child can at least make it extremely difficult to go to/continue university, and this is something which should definitely be addressed.
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Flavius_Aetius
Guest
I’ve personally experienced each of the arguments presented here from step family that are almost all pro-choice liberals. I’ve learned to just never talk politics or morality with any of them, their stubbornly in the belief that murder in the womb is justified. It’s too bad considering when I did argue with them I was about 16 with no knowledge to defend my position. Now I just know how adamant they are on it and would rather not get evil looks and be yelled at for trying to hold a higher morality that didn’t justify murder…
God…I just depressed myself…
God…I just depressed myself…
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Siochan_Leat
Guest
Sorry to hear that Flavius Aetius. :console:
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Personanongrata
Guest
Keep in mind that Planned Parenthood clinics are in minority neighborhoods for a reason. They are not needed in rich affluent neighborhoods. If you you have the money and insurance, you can use your private doctor if you decide to have an abortion. Women who go to PP usually have little money and no insurance. The “Margaret Sanger” clinics for rich women are private, expensive, and easily accessible for them.
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estesbob
Guest
You have just inadvertently stepped into another one of the common reasons given for abortion- that is that since rich women can always get them it is discriminatory if poor women don’t have an equal right to kill their child. . Believe it or not this was an argument postulated frequently prior to Roe been imposed on the country.
. If, by the way, your supposition that the reason Planned Parenthood has clinics in poor areas is only because rich women can afford abortions of private clinics,why do we see a disproportionate number of African-Americans getting abortions-, accounting for 40% of the abortions in this country even though they only make up 12% of the population? Sure seems like they’re being targeted
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GKCT
Guest
There are no viable arguments “for” abortion. Has anyone considered the fact that the only people that are pro-abortion, are those that were born and now live? Ask a dead baby how he or she feels after being torn from the womb and discarded in some ugly way.
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Bluegoat
Guest
Well, what proportion of the poor is made up of African Americans? I know they are over-represented compared to the population, so that could be your answer.
I think the eugenics thing can really be over-played in a discussion about abortion. I think it is very unlikely that many Planned Parenthood supporters have any sympathy for eugenics, and so they are not likely to take that argument very seriously. It is hard to be convinced of a motive that is actually abhorrent to you.
And as well, it is kind of an ad hominem argument "Margaret Sanger supported eugenics so Planned Parenthood must be an evil organization:. It is an unfortunate fact that eugenics was very popular, even among Christians who should have known better, during that period. But we don’t dismiss, say, the writings of Chesterton because he published anti-Semitic articles with eugenic overtones in his newspaper.
Poverty is a real issue with relation to abortion, even if one is pro-life. Maybe if right next to every Planned Parenthood clinic there was a Christian clinic offering well-woman care, pregnancy care, midwives, and pediatric care, fewer people might go to PP for help.
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