What are the views of the Holy Orthodox Church on RCC approved Marian Apparitions?

[ChrisRedfield47]

Well. my brother in Christ I see no sense making an issue out of this. After all it is Lent. I have no doubt in my mind of what the Lord can do.
However let me get off the soapbox, I see no value in distracting the thread on Medugorje.

Peace

Alrighty then, I guess you made your point I made mine. Again, I’m not devout to Medugorje or anything related to that “apparition” in the first place. Btw I read everything you posted in your last comment but I made some cuts to it to make a quicker and shorter response.

You’ve given fine examples of Bishop APPROVAL for venerations and devotions being followed later by formal declarations- Why do I see NONE of Bishop DISAPPROVAL being followed later by approvals? Also I asked you for examples of what you claimed earlier. About Local importance vs greater importance, the article Adoglover provided said that the matter is up to the Council of Bishops of that Country.

Look Marybeloved, I think I did post good enough sources to back up everything I posted. I think I provided good enough examples and quotes of the apparition being in an under investigation status. If you look at the last couple of links I posted (which you didn’t respond to) they provide good enough evidence that Local’s Bishop rejection is not sufficient in cases where the issue is more than just a local issue (as in the case of Medugorje).

However I feel you are ignoring many things I post, because the arguments of your recent posts are answered in my previous ones. Therefore you make me post the same things over and over again. Either that, or they simply don’t convince you. I feel lazy about posting again knowing that not everything gets a reply. And I think we are clearly going in many circles. I maintain my position because I find good enough evidence to support it, but that doesn’t mean you have to have the same one. In anyway I feel I’m debating something I’m not really interested in, nor am I a fan of Medugorje. Nor is it my intention to spend the time maintaining a position here, when I can go do other things like praying a Rosary or going to Mass.

The thread was more like for Orthodox (EO) to respond , rather than debating whether or not Medugorje is rejected or not. You’ll obviously just stand in your position and ill obviously stand in mine.

P.S. Writing in CAPS doesn’t help convincing anyone btw. You could have just bolded the words. Writing in CAPS isn’t offensive or insulting to me in anyway, but it is to others. Just saying.

 

[GraceDK]

Perhaps following this link down to item #6 may help. #8 also helps…however I have no problem with “mixed” marriages.

catholiclight.stblogs.org/archives/2010/03/the-deviations-of-medjugorje.html

Thanks… I am not sure I would call that a credible source. I don’t see who they are or how they got access to the knowlege they claim to have.

The question was if the Gospa really said that all religions are equal.
I think I’ll take that question to my travel guide. She is an old woman who has travelled to Medjugorje with groups dozens of times… she also became a Catholic there.
And by the way, whenever she brought pilgrims to the site, she spoke about the Catholic Church and dared to say all the things the Church teaches, and quite clearly saying that not all things are equal. Im sure this might be the only person I know who read all the “messages”.

I don’t know why you talk about mixed marriages…

 

[Marybeloved]

P.S. Writing in CAPS doesn’t help convincing anyone btw. You could have just bolded the words. Writing in CAPS isn’t offensive or insulting to me in anyway, but it is to others. Just saying.

So will “bolding” convince you, then?

PS:- I did not “write in CAPS”, I emphasised certain words that way- And I found bolding too tiresome compared to just pressing the Caps button on my key-board- What’s it to you anyway? You say you’re not insulted as if that was my intention and then employ this snide comments.

 

[adoglover1956]

Thanks… I am not sure I would call that a credible source. I don’t see who they are or how they got access to the knowlege they claim to have.

The question was if the Gospa really said that all religions are equal.
I think I’ll take that question to my travel guide. She is an old woman who has travelled to Medjugorje with groups dozens of times… she also became a Catholic there.
And by the way, whenever she brought pilgrims to the site, she spoke about the Catholic Church and dared to say all the things the Church teaches, and quite clearly saying that not all things are equal. Im sure this might be the only person I know who read all the “messages”.

I don’t know why you talk about mixed marriages…

I mentioned the mixed marriages because #8 deals with that subject.

 

[GaryTaylor]

If she has misrepresented your visionaries, then refute her accusations.

She misrepresented GOD, Two Saints a third in process who happened to be a Sister for oh, 75 years. Popes visited with, and the CC approved. “MY” visionaries, np they are GODs messangers, whom the CC acknowledged as WORTHY of BELIEF!

Refute it? been their, done that. Its an illogical witchhunt. Doesn’t represent your church, but one person in it and those who argee with her lacking muliti explainational reseach, which amounts to “Throw it up and see what sticks” and none of it does. You posted the article its your responsibility to validate it!! The Catholic Church itself “refutes” it.

If you chose to believe that loose shooting article be my guest. You presented the article, then it is up to you to Prove 1]Delusion 2] Aliens/UFOs 3] Demonic! So far I see nothing but well, as you say “circular” talk. And your failure of an attempt to turn the confrontation around.

The mracle of FATIMA we are at.

accusations of delusion must be disproven…

Right and by YOU, to uphold your argument

Not only at Fatima but also Lourdes, the children were all seen by Doctors. Its all out there Mark all one has to is read it. The fact is no could prove them anything but LUCID to the dismay of many I assure you. And apparently still so.

Mark, 10 if not one show appeared on Lourdes this month alone. EWTN is probly still running encore presentations before the mths ends, watch one. The Saint came under great scrutiny by the medical field right. In fact some were so hell bend on proving she was lying, since they couldn’t find anything Mentally wrong with her, they were reduced to stating “lies”, they then persued her to the point of CONVERSTION themselves. And since 3000 healings have occured with 67 confirmed by the Church.

Muhammad (and many others) were supposed eye witness to the “Splitting of the Moon”. .

Where are those who seen this then and have the degree to state certainty? Fatima and Lourdes IS confirmed by the medical field.

Listen you really need to lose the Muhammed aspect there is NO HISTORIC fact…its PR. The only investigation to his mental stablity was by a Byzantine Doctor who concluded he was epileptic, his wife confirmed, the rest is History…and by his fruits he is known.

The antichrist (as do the forces of darkness) will perform many signs to deceive “even the very elect”. 2 Thessalonians 2:9 and Revelation 16:14 :.

What signs…Still waiting Mark?

Yet there is not one in HISTORY which OBVIOUSLY you have FAILED to show. Prediction is the best you came up with in Revelation/Bible. So lets get real here. You can point to “ONLY” allegory and speculation of what satan will do, but hasn’t done. Thus your assuming what will happen with ZERO referrence point to the “actual reality” We already know the work of satan by Mohammed, Hitler, Nero, Stalin etc. Your allegory may well be mans over the edge evils in climatic war…can you prove that wrong?? Of course you can’t because “it hasen’t occured yet” Mark. Your alluding to FUTURE events.

The idea that all supernatural occurrences come from God is completely untrue (as well as dangerous)…

No-one said that, I said THIS Miracle came from God and was predicted. I said satan never produced a Miracle to this capacity.

how do you know such a miracle is fiction?

Mohammad Mark? Your actually going to come HERE as a member of the EO and promote Mohammed in this climatic period we are trying to educate Christians.

What proof is there a miracle existed? Who witnessed anything? Whats their names? Read above, and again I have NO intention of elaborating on what I believe “is” the work of evil collaberated by fiction. And that “is” exactly how evil does work step by step. If fact you should visit the other thread on Islam and the Theology of Evil I posted.

Gary, I think most Catholics (even those who believe in the apparitions) would agree with me here. Your arguments are not logically sound.

Lots of assuming to boister what you think is a valid postion. Let those Catholics speak up whom are members here then…or I’ll just assume your ego has arrived before the truth. I find the article lacking and “btw” most Catholics who read it agree:shrug: Nor is it the first time the article has appeared on CAF.

Now what I do see in NO member of the EO has come here to talk Mohammed, UFOs, what we do know its not “delusion”, and to boot it simply cannot be “evil” when hunderds of thousands are converted to CHRIST. For through their fruits they will be known. Two Saints a third on the way, an approved sight by the CC with in depth investigation. Let alone the fact 70-Thousand witnessed the event, healings and converstions occured…and to end with, IT WAS PREDICTED in ADVANCE that GOD would perform the Miracle. Not St. Mary, but GOD. Constant visits by the Popes, laity which continued for Oh 95-years now.

How about this theory “GIVE GOD HIS DUE RESPECT”

 

[GaryTaylor]

Medugorje we need to get off, the title of this thread is “Approved Marian Apparitions”

My point is, and has been, its NOT APPROVED.

Peace

 

[Marybeloved]

@Gary
That incident with Mohammed with the moon appearing to split was no miracle.

They witnessed some strange anomally in the sky (he was in some discussion with some other Arabs, not Muslims) then he just claimed it for himself, after the fact.

It’s like; You and I are outside some fine Evening, then something fishy happens or appears to happen in the sky, not related to our discussions. Then I turn to you and tell you, “See, Gary! I did that- That’s my doing!”- And this, AFTER the thing has already happened.

Now, I did not tell you I would do anything, I did not predict that God would do anything and I did not predict that ANYTHING at all would happen. You did not see me say/tell/command this thing to happen- You did not even see me PRAY for this thing to happen

We just see something unusual in the sky that looks miraculous to us and one of us, after the fact, claims it for himself- Hey, that’s me! I did that! I don’t know how this could ever qualify as a miracle . If a strange looking shooting star sped across the night sky and then I just claimed that I did that with no proof that I even had any prior knowledge of it, would you believe me and count it as one of my miracles?

 

[Marybeloved]

Also- No one else from Arabia (outside Islamic Holy books) or the World ever recorded witnessing such a thing in the sky- The moon totally splits into two and none else apart from Mohammed and those he mentions notices? Just some of the many problems with this. It was not a public event like at Fatima where you could not just simply explain the phenomenon away as either a fabrication or a case of a few people “seeing things”.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Also- No one else from Arabia (outside Islamic Holy books) or the World ever recorded witnessing such a thing in the sky- The moon totally splits into two and none else apart from Mohammed and those he mentions notices? Just some of the many problems with this. It was not a public event like at Fatima where you could not just simply explain the phenomenon away as either a fabrication or a case of a few people “seeing things”.

Thanks for elaborating Marybeloved.

I can understand should one chose not to believe a private revelation. Here to a degree we are restricted to personal apparitions, locutions etc. Yet when we have consistant predictions which then occur. Very difficult to ignore. And its just continues on and on with those children. Bl Jacinta predicted where she would die and the date, then it happened.

I can’t for a moment believe children at that age would be willing to die for a lie. They locked these kids up, threatened to boil them alive if they didn’t tell the truth, and they simply would not change their story. Then they systematically removed one at a time, so the others thought those who left already were killed. And their story still didn’t change. I know of no children that would do that for a fabricated lie. No, they believed 100% in what they were doing.

Peace

 

[L_piperatus]

The antichrist (as do the forces of darkness) will perform many signs to deceive “even the very elect”. 2 Thessalonians 2:9 and Revelation 16:14 :.
Here’s how this verse has been interpreted by some of the EO people I’ve met in real life and through their writings:

There is the miracle of the Holy Fire occurring in the EOC at every Pascha, and the EO regard that as something coming from God. An EO priest even gave me a printout of an article from the orthodoxinfo website, stating that this particular miracle proves that the EO Church is the true Church, because the miracle does not occur for the Catholics or for the Armenians (Oriental Orthodox), it only occurs for the Eastern Orthodox. There was also a case when lightning came down from the sky a few hundred years ago, at a time when Jerusalem was under Muslim rule and the rulers banished the EO from the Holy Sepulcher, but allowed the Armenian Patriarch to enter. On that crucial day, the miracle of Holy Fire did not happen for the Armenian Patriarch; but a lightning struck the column by which the banished Greek EO Patriarch of Jerusalem was standing, and the same lightning set alight the torch in the hand of the EO Patriarch.

The EO I’ve met, including priests and faithful, do not speculate that the miracle of the Holy Fire could be something from the antichrist, a trick to deceive even the elect if possible. Same thing about the many miracles of myrrh exuding from holy icons in EO Churches.

But not so when it comes to miracles and Marian apparitions happening in the Catholic Church.

With the miracles in the EOC, we are told they are coming from God. With the miracles in the CC, especially with the Marian apparition at Fatima in 1917 and the prophecies regarding Russia - an EO country at that time, we are told to take a dim view, and it is suggested these miracles might be coming from the Antichrist.

Interesting.

 

[dcointin]

The antichrist (as do the forces of darkness) will perform many signs to deceive “even the very elect”. 2 Thessalonians 2:9 and Revelation 16:14 :.
Here’s how this verse has been interpreted by some of the EO people I’ve met in real life and through their writings:

There is the miracle of the Holy Fire occurring in the EOC at every Pascha, and the EO regard that as something coming from God. An EO priest even gave me a printout of an article from the orthodoxinfo website, stating that this particular miracle proves that the EO Church is the true Church, because the miracle does not occur for the Catholics or for the Armenians (Oriental Orthodox), it only occurs for the Eastern Orthodox. There was also a case when lightning came down from the sky a few hundred years ago, at a time when Jerusalem was under Muslim rule and the rulers banished the EO from the Holy Sepulcher, but allowed the Armenian Patriarch to enter. On that crucial day, the miracle of Holy Fire did not happen for the Armenian Patriarch; but a lightning struck the column by which the banished Greek EO Patriarch of Jerusalem was standing, and the same lightning set alight the torch in the hand of the EO Patriarch.

The EO I’ve met, including priests and faithful, do not speculate that the miracle of the Holy Fire could be something from the antichrist, a trick to deceive even the elect if possible. Same thing about the many miracles of myrrh exuding from holy icons in EO Churches.

But not so when it comes to miracles and Marian apparitions happening in the Catholic Church.

With the miracles in the EOC, we are told they are coming from God. With the miracles in the CC, especially with the Marian apparition at Fatima in 1917 and the prophecies regarding Russia - an EO country at that time, we are told to take a dim view, and it is suggested these miracles might be coming from the Antichrist.

Interesting.

I’ve noticed the same double standard.

 

[Abba]

My point is, and has been, its NOT APPROVED.

But this does not mean that it has been NOT APPROVED. Rome has not spoken. I understand that Cardinal Camillo Ruini is still the president of the commission that is investigating the matter on behalf of Pope Benedict XVI. The Vatican commision is still investigating and has not concluded. It has not been approved nor disapproved. If it was obvious that Satan was behind Medjugorje, I would think that the Vatican would be swift in directing the sheep correctly away from Medjugorge. Pending investigation catholics organizations, etc…have been asked not to plan pilgrimages as a Catholic Church thing since it has not been officially approved.

vatican.va/news_services/press/documentazione/documents/cardinali_biografie/cardinali_bio_ruini_c_en.html

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1100812.htm

gsearch.vatican.va/search?q=medjugorje&client=default_frontend&output=xml_no_dtd&proxystylesheet=default_frontend&sort=date%3AD%3AL%3Ad1&oe=UTF-8&ie=UTF-8&ud=1&exclude_apps=1&site=default_collection

 

[Nine_Two]

The antichrist (as do the forces of darkness) will perform many signs to deceive “even the very elect”. 2 Thessalonians 2:9 and Revelation 16:14 :.
Here’s how this verse has been interpreted by some of the EO people I’ve met in real life and through their writings:

There is the miracle of the Holy Fire occurring in the EOC at every Pascha, and the EO regard that as something coming from God. An EO priest even gave me a printout of an article from the orthodoxinfo website, stating that this particular miracle proves that the EO Church is the true Church, because the miracle does not occur for the Catholics or for the Armenians (Oriental Orthodox), it only occurs for the Eastern Orthodox. There was also a case when lightning came down from the sky a few hundred years ago, at a time when Jerusalem was under Muslim rule and the rulers banished the EO from the Holy Sepulcher, but allowed the Armenian Patriarch to enter. On that crucial day, the miracle of Holy Fire did not happen for the Armenian Patriarch; but a lightning struck the column by which the banished Greek EO Patriarch of Jerusalem was standing, and the same lightning set alight the torch in the hand of the EO Patriarch.

The EO I’ve met, including priests and faithful, do not speculate that the miracle of the Holy Fire could be something from the antichrist, a trick to deceive even the elect if possible. Same thing about the many miracles of myrrh exuding from holy icons in EO Churches.

But not so when it comes to miracles and Marian apparitions happening in the Catholic Church.

With the miracles in the EOC, we are told they are coming from God. With the miracles in the CC, especially with the Marian apparition at Fatima in 1917 and the prophecies regarding Russia - an EO country at that time, we are told to take a dim view, and it is suggested these miracles might be coming from the Antichrist.

Interesting.

While there are some like that, and as I said on the previous page, believing a single miracle (whether it repeats, or happens just once, is seen by one, or is seen by every last person on earth) proves the faith leads to a shallow faith.

The Holy Fire is accepted (though not even universally) because it in no way contradicts Holy Tradition, while at the same time confirms certain elements.

Meanwhile Marian Apparitions run a whole gamit of whether or not they are in accordance with our Holy Tradition, and some have some following among Orthodox, some are denounced outright as going against Holy Tradition, but for the most part people who are Orthodox do not think about them.

When it comes to the Holy Fire, there is no need to question whether it is demonic or not because of its conformity. It agrees with what came before it, and adds nothing to the faith. If it is demonic in origin, it is a waste of the demons time.

However every miracle must have this same consideration applied to it, it must be tested.

I would only suggest demonic origin to Catholic apparitions that do go counter to our Holy Tradition. That is the first criteria that must be met. Official sanction by the Catholic Church might influence my opinion after that, but not very much.

I agree that there is a double standard by anyone who accepts any “miracle” which happens in the Orthodox world, while outright denying anything that happens in the Catholic world by virtue of the fact that it is the Catholic world, but that sort of person is extremely rare.

I personally believe God acts and moves in all Christian churches, even if they lack the fullness of the truth.

 

[ChrisRedfield47]

So will “bolding” convince you, then?

PS:- I did not “write in CAPS”, I emphasised certain words that way- And I found bolding too tiresome compared to just pressing the Caps button on my key-board- What’s it to you anyway? You say you’re not insulted as if that was my intention and then employ this snide comments.

I wasn’t trying to make it look like that was your intention.

Bolding is always better imo.

 

[GaryTaylor]

While there are some like that, and as I said on the previous page, believing a single miracle (whether it repeats, or happens just once, is seen by one, or is seen by every last person on earth) proves the faith leads to a shallow faith.

How so? You mean distraction from faith?

 

[Hesychios]

… I personally believe God acts and moves in all Christian churches, even if they lack the fullness of the truth.

I believe this too.

 

[Mark_of_Ephesus]

She misrepresented GOD, Two Saints a third in process who happened to be a Sister for oh, 75 years. Popes visited with, and the CC approved. “MY” visionaries, np they are GODs messangers, whom the CC acknowledged as WORTHY of BELIEF!

But Gary, this sort of logic only confirms the beliefs of Roman Catholics, it doesn’t convince the rest of us who don’t accept the your church’s teachings at face value. This thread deals with Orthodox views concerning the apparitions (i.e people whose beliefs are not based around the teachings of the Vatican).

Again, you have not addressed the circular logic inherent to your argument. If I ask why the visionaries are saints, I would be told that the visions are proof of sainthood (i.e. the visions are legitimate, not a sign of delusion). If I asked how we know the visionaries are not delusional, I am told that it is because they are saints.

Refute it? been their, done that

You haven’t even begun to refute the article. You have done little more than throw ad hominems at the author.

Where are those who seen this then and have the degree to state certainty? Fatima and Lourdes IS confirmed by the medical field.

That is an extremely bold claim. Were it true, nearly every doctor in the world would subscribe to belief in the apparitions.

Listen you really need to lose the Muhammed aspect there is NO HISTORIC fact…its PR. The only investigation to his mental stablity was by a Byzantine Doctor who concluded he was epileptic, his wife confirmed, the rest is History…

And did this “Byzantine” doctor have a doctorate degree as we know today?

and by his fruits he is known.

Speaking of fruits, where are the mass conversions in Russia? The apparition at Fatima promised such a thing would occur when Russia was consecrated to her. Roman Catholics are still a very small minority.

What signs…Still waiting Mark?

Yet there is not one in HISTORY which OBVIOUSLY you have FAILED to show. Prediction is the best you came up with in Revelation/Bible. So lets get real here. You can point to “ONLY” allegory and speculation of what satan will do, but hasn’t done. Thus your assuming what will happen with ZERO referrence point to the “actual reality” We already know the work of satan by Mohammed, Hitler, Nero, Stalin etc. Your allegory may well be mans over the edge evils in climatic war…can you prove that wrong?? Of course you can’t because “it hasen’t occured yet” Mark. Your alluding to FUTURE events.

Ah, but you misinterpreted my post. I did not mean to imply that the verse referred to any of the apparitions, but rather that not all [large] supernatural events come from God (an argument you previously made).

No-one said that, I said THIS Miracle came from God and was predicted. I said satan never produced a Miracle to this capacity.

And that argument has no precedence in either Scripture or the Fathers. The antichrist will perform some of the most marvelous signs of all time, yet such things do not come from God.

Mohammad Mark? Your actually going to come HERE as a member of the EO and promote Mohammed in this climatic period we are trying to educate Christians.

What proof is there a miracle existed? Who witnessed anything? Whats their names? Read above, and again I have NO intention of elaborating on what I believe “is” the work of evil collaberated by fiction. And that “is” exactly how evil does work step by step. If fact you should visit the other thread on Islam and the Theology of Evil I posted.

No, I have no intention of promoting Mohammed. I am merely showing that your own logic (the necessity of PhDs) makes it impossible to reject the miracles posited in the Qur’an. Besides, assuming that PhDs are a necessity to either accept or reject ideas, how can you state the Qur’an is fiction? Do you have a PhD in Classical Arabic, Arabic History, Psychology, Islamic Theology? Look Gary, even if you believe in the apparitions, the logic you have put forth does not help your case. Cite evidence and refute opposition. That’s it. That is how you prove a point in a logical and intellectual fashion. Attacking the woman for lack of multiple PhDs has done nothing to further your argument. If anything, it has appeared to the readers of this thread that you are unable to address her points.

Lots of assuming to boister what you think is a valid postion. Let those Catholics speak up whom are members here then…or I’ll just assume your ego has arrived before the truth.

Please forgive me if I exerted my pridefulness or in any way offended you.

Now what I do see in NO member of the EO has come here to talk Mohammed, UFOs, what we do know its not “delusion”, and to boot it simply cannot be “evil” when hunderds of thousands are converted to CHRIST. For through their fruits they will be known. Two Saints a third on the way, an approved sight by the CC with in depth investigation. Let alone the fact 70-Thousand witnessed the event, healings and converstions occured…and to end with, IT WAS PREDICTED in ADVANCE that GOD would perform the Miracle. Not St. Mary, but GOD. Constant visits by the Popes, laity which continued for Oh 95-years now.

Ok, but these things do not prove that the apparition as coming from God. We Orthodox are largely indifferent to the conversions [to Roman Catholicism]. Because we do not believe it to be the true Faith, we do not find such evidence convincing. Healings occur across the world in different places and in different religions. It never proves anything, but merely shows that God is good and extends his mercy to those in need.

 

[Nine_Two]

How so? You mean distraction from faith?

No, it is simply not a firm basis for faith, they are open to interpretation, and therefore any time someone comes along with a critique of the specific miracles, it becomes a direct attack on your faith. You need more than that. Miracles should only be used for personal encouragement.

 

[Alfonsus]

Again, you have not addressed the circular logic inherent to your argument. If I ask why the visionaries are saints, I would be told that the visions are proof of sainthood (i.e. the visions are legitimate, not a sign of delusion). If I asked how we know the visionaries are not delusional, I am told that it is because they are saints.

I believe, in official teaching of Catholic Church, an apparition/vision/locution and whatever private revelation is not taken as basis for sainthood.
The apparition become popularly accepted by the faithful because the sainthood of the receiver.
In this regard, it is no different from the Orthodox approach.

But heck, even the Catholic Church never ask any of his faithful to believe any private revelation. So basically, like me, I don’t lose my sleep of care about this message or that apparition, even a very popular one. I don’t rule them out, just that they play no good part.

Even those received by the saints, we can believe/not believe them. We can always emulate and honor the saints without taking recourse to the apparition.

Also, when establishing devotion, the Catholic Church does not base it on apparitions. Devotion like Sacred Heart or Divine Mercy was presented to the whole Church basing from Scripture teachings. That is why, someone may not believe the private revelation, but can pick up the devotion without problem.

But of course, the faithful sometimes does not always grasp the Church way of thinking and when this happened, these private revelations became a distraction or even idols to some degree…

 

[GaryTaylor]

I believe this too.

Well we all seem to in argreement here.