What are we reasonably expected to do?

[katholicos]

I am really struggling with this issue at the moment, almost to the point of depression (!), so I’d be grateful for some thoughts/answers.

My question is: What does God reasonably expect us to do?

We know that God never tempts us beyond our will (1 Corinthians 10:13). And yet, we sin often. So when we do sin it is very much a free choice between good and evil in most cases.

Why then do so many Catholics, even many ardent ones, live such sinful lives? And by this I mean things like use contraception (96.2% of Catholic women have used it ~National Survey of Family Growth, 2002 pdf]). Many of them, I’m sure, rationalize it to themselves - but surely this does not excuse it, and are they all therefore in grave danger of going to hell?

I was discussing this with a (Catholic) friend recently, and he has an interesting sort of hedono-Catholicism. If not doing certain things will make you really unhappy, he argues, then you should do them. When I suggested that surely we should strive to live as ‘good’ lives as possible, he said “If you want to go and live a ‘perfect’ life then fine, good for you, but I could never do that”. Things like intending not to engage in sex before marrige “screws up your life”: “It’s not normal for a 17 year old to be talking about this stuff!”

I guess what I’m struggling with is how hard I ‘ought’ to try. Should I, as Jesus suggests (Mark 10:21), sell all my possessions (if can summon the will - and who knows?)?

Surely not?

Almost by definition, it seems, nobody tries their hardest to avoid sin. For if they did try their hardest then they would not commit sin (see above).

If I go through life trying to avoid major sin, doing good deeds, going to confession - am I reasonably assured salvation? Or do I have to give up all my worldly possessions, become celibate, and dedicate my life entirely to Jesus? And if not, why not?

 

[Margita]

My question is: What does God reasonably expect us to do?

(…)

Almost by definition, it seems, nobody tries their hardest to avoid sin. For if they did try their hardest then they would not commit sin (see above).

If I go through life trying to avoid major sin, doing good deeds, going to confession - am I reasonably assured salvation? Or do I have to give up all my worldly possessions, become celibate, and dedicate my life entirely to Jesus? And if not, why not?

Katholicos,
you know, the first thing God expects you to do is to love Him with all your might. The second, to love your neighbour as yourself.
To strive to fulfill these commandments is far more important than a struggle against sin. You should struggle for**** God, not against**** sin, in the first place. Once you really, from your heart, desire to live according to God’s will, you will have a healthier (and definitely more intelligent) attitude to sin and temptation than your “Catholic” friend.
I believe religion is not an incessant struggle against temptations, but rather an incessant struggle for God. Faith-hope-charity: believe in the redeeming power of God, hope in His mercy (which is infinite), and love Him with all your might, observing His commandments.

Remember: Saint Peter denied Christ three times. Because he was human, and because he was tempted. And maybe because he was too sure about his own stability in the faith, God allowed him to slip. But he did not despair, like Judas. Remember, none of us is free from sin. While we are in this world, we are tempted, and we fail, but if you read the Epistle of James, you will see how it is all part of our journey towards salvation. What God expects you to do is to humbly accept your sinful nature, to confess it, and to love him even more for loving you in spite of your unworthyness.

Now as for what you need to do to attain salvation: you can never ensure your own salvation. And certainly not by observing the basic precepts of the Church only. I emphasize the “only” because you cannot be saved without observing them either, but you need to observe them with a full intention and a ready heart, and a strong faith. And most importantly: you cannot do it without God’s grace. You cannot move an inch without it. ANd this is something you should acknowledge: no matter how hard you flog yourself, it will be only through God’s will and Christ’s merits that you are saved. Period.

You see, once you accept this, it does not matter what state of life you are in - if everybody had to be pennyless and celibate to go to heaven, you had never been born Whatever your duties or situation in life, there is a way to live in faith, hope, and charity. That only is needful.

And do not be afraid.

 

[Alda]

I am really struggling with this issue at the moment, almost to the point of depression (!), so I’d be grateful for some thoughts/answers.

My question is: What does God reasonably expect us to do?

We know that God never tempts us beyond our will (1 Corinthians 10:13). And yet, we sin often. So when we do sin it is very much a free choice between good and evil in most cases.

Why then do so many Catholics, even many ardent ones, live such sinful lives? And by this I mean things like use contraception (96.2% of Catholic women have used it ~National Survey of Family Growth, 2002 pdf]). Many of them, I’m sure, rationalize it to themselves - but surely this does not excuse it, and are they all therefore in grave danger of going to hell?

Is the important phrase here ‘have used it’? In other words, these Catholic women have since stopped using contraception and confessed this sin and received absolution. We are all only human and there may be many reasons why that particular sin has been committed in the past. Usually when people come to their faith with a renewed commitment, contraception is one of the first things to go. As humans we constantly strive against sin.

I was discussing this with a (Catholic) friend recently, and he has an interesting sort of hedono-Catholicism. If not doing certain things will make you really unhappy, he argues, then you should do them. When I suggested that surely we should strive to live as ‘good’ lives as possible, he said “If you want to go and live a ‘perfect’ life then fine, good for you, but I could never do that”. Things like intending not to engage in sex before marrige “screws up your life”: “It’s not normal for a 17 year old to be talking about this stuff!”

Hmm, this all sounds a little too easy. And noone ever said faith was easy. Maybe he should study his Catechism more closely? If we accept the teachings of the Church as Truth (and as Catholics we should) then we must strive to live as we are taught. And I think it’s very healthy for 17 year olds to think about chastity. Certainly far more healthy than the alternative.

I guess what I’m struggling with is how hard I ‘ought’ to try. Should I, as Jesus suggests (Mark 10:21), sell all my possessions (if can summon the will - and who knows?)?

Surely not?

Almost by definition, it seems, nobody tries their hardest to avoid sin. For if they did try their hardest then they would not commit sin (see above).

If I go through life trying to avoid major sin, doing good deeds, going to confession - am I reasonably assured salvation? Or do I have to give up all my worldly possessions, become celibate, and dedicate my life entirely to Jesus? And if not, why not?

We are humans and imperfect. However, I also struggle with the teaching to sell all our possessions. Maybe a more informed person than me can answer that for you. I too will be interested. What I don’t think is that Jesus intended for all to become celibate. We are called to different paths and the marriage vocation is a very special one. Don’t despair, do your very best and have faith in God’s Infinite love and justice.

 

[ThatGuy]

Jesus said that in order to enter the kingdom of heaven, we must deny ourselves, take up our crosses, and folow him- not to give in to our every desires because it makes us happy. Hedonism and Catholocism do not mix- they are opposites.

Your friend is likley to be confused, and needs your help. I would reccomend trying to be a good example for him by doing your best to follow the laws that God gave us. Jesus also said that those who love him will keep his commandments (or do our best, since we are all imperfect). And as always pray for your friend as well!

God bless!

 

[LittleDeb]

I was discussing this with a (Catholic) friend recently, and he has an interesting sort of hedono-Catholicism. If not doing certain things will make you really unhappy, he argues, then you should do them. When I suggested that surely we should strive to live as ‘good’ lives as possible, he said “If you want to go and live a ‘perfect’ life then fine, good for you, but I could never do that”. Things like intending not to engage in sex before marriage “screws up your life”: “It’s not normal for a 17 year old to be talking about this stuff!”

I guess what I’m struggling with is how hard I ‘ought’ to try. Should I, as Jesus suggests (Mark 10:21), sell all my possessions (if can summon the will - and who knows?)?

Surely not?

I think the other sections of your questions are already being well addressed so I just wanted to focus on this part.

Let’s look at that word “possessions” especially in relation to your own life and your friend’s life.

What is a possession? Please note, Jesus did not say, “Sell all of the gifts I have given you and follow me.” He said sell your possessions. Think of that word from a demonic point of view. To be overcome by a demon one is said to be possessed. If I go out and pick a flower do I possess it? Well sure, for a moment. Then it dies. If I enjoy the gift of the flower even though it follows the natural design of wilting when picked, I have enjoyed God. I have followed Him. As I look around my home, I look for the gifts God has given me. If it is not a gift from Him, it is a possession. And as every cleaning guru knows, those things are just clutter! What Jesus is asking of us is to “Cut the clutter!” My singing voice is a gift from Him. I cannot sell it to be rid of it. I can only use it as a gift for His greater glory. If it ever became a possession, I would probably lose it.

Now look at that in your young friend’s life. He is possessed by his sexual appetites. He has not accepted his sexuality as a gift to be enjoyed. He has taken it and used it and thrown it away. That is the definition of a possession. His idea is to own, not to gift. His mentality of, “whatever works for me” is how a materialistic society is governed. I would guess your particular friend rates ‘rights’ above ‘responsibilities.’ No offense intended against him, but that will only work in the short term. He is working in possessions not in gifts. If we dwell in the former, it catches up with us. Those who lose all of their possessions in a fire and yet can still celebrate that the gifts of their children are still with them are following God.

God gives us all that we need in the form of gifts. What we take for ourselves are possessions.

 

[BlestOne]

umm… you aren’t going to take this guys opinion as truth are you?

I guess my boys aren’t normal because my 20 yo and his 17 yo brother talk about waiting until marriage… Actually I was quite pleased when the whole group of my oldest son’s friends made it a group effort thing and lean on each other for support with chastity.

Birth control… does it say how many have now been properly catechised and no longer use it? Does it say what percentage still use ABC? Yes, most of us have sinned and used ABC at some point in our lives, I know I did… and then there was this time… when the doctor prescribed the pill to save my life. Does that count too?

Just because a goal is difficult doesn’t mean we have to lower our standards… it means we have to try harder. See, I think that is part of the problem today. If something is too difficult we want to lower the standards not try harder.

 

[Nordar]

Katholicos,
you know, the first thing God expects you to do is to love Him with all your might. The second, to love your neighbour as yourself.
To strive to fulfill these commandments is far more important than a struggle against sin. You should struggle for**** God, not against**** sin, in the first place. Once you really, from your heart, desire to live according to God’s will, you will have a healthier (and definitely more intelligent) attitude to sin and temptation than your “Catholic” friend.
I believe religion is not an incessant struggle against temptations, but rather an incessant struggle for God. Faith-hope-charity: believe in the redeeming power of God, hope in His mercy (which is infinite), and love Him with all your might, observing His commandments.

Remember: Saint Peter denied Christ three times. Because he was human, and because he was tempted. And maybe because he was too sure about his own stability in the faith, God allowed him to slip. But he did not despair, like Judas. Remember, none of us is free from sin. While we are in this world, we are tempted, and we fail, but if you read the Epistle of James, you will see how it is all part of our journey towards salvation. What God expects you to do is to humbly accept your sinful nature, to confess it, and to love him even more for loving you in spite of your unworthyness.

Now as for what you need to do to attain salvation: you can never ensure your own salvation. And certainly not by observing the basic precepts of the Church only. I emphasize the “only” because you cannot be saved without observing them either, but you need to observe them with a full intention and a ready heart, and a strong faith. And most importantly: you cannot do it without God’s grace. You cannot move an inch without it. ANd this is something you should acknowledge: no matter how hard you flog yourself, it will be only through God’s will and Christ’s merits that you are saved. Period.

You see, once you accept this, it does not matter what state of life you are in - if everybody had to be pennyless and celibate to go to heaven, you had never been born Whatever your duties or situation in life, there is a way to live in faith, hope, and charity. That only is needful.

And do not be afraid.

Great Post, thank you!

 

[katholicos]

Thanks for your answers, everyone.

Would one way of looking at it be:

1. We are not tempted beyond our will.
2. When we are tempted, and give in, it is the case that we have chosen not to use our will.
3. Those who do chose to use their will, and love God, but still give in, simply don’t love God enough.

How’s my theology?

Also, my friend, after discussing this, decided that “it’s a case of how much you prioritise your time on Earth against your time after death” (i.e. he prioritises his time on Earth a bit more).

How do I show him his error? Quoting Newman (“Time is short, eternity is long”) is not enough, I fear

 

[Margita]

1. We are not tempted beyond our will.
2. When we are tempted, and give in, it is the case that we have chosen not to use our will.
3. Those who do chose to use their will, and love God, but still give in, simply don’t love God enough.

Or perhaps we are weak and fallible.
We can never love God perfectly, or “enough”. But we can and should strive to attain as perfect a love for God as possible. It is part of our sinful humanity that our weakness overcomes our love.

As for time here vs time in the next life - I actually think your friend should be aware of the fact that each and every moment we spend here on Earth really belongs to our next life. We have already started the one life given to us, we don’t start over after death, we go on! But we are accountable for the moments we have here.
(Alas, poor miserable sinful me sitting around, eating yogurt and posting here… )

 

[Sr_Sally]

All really good questions. Margita gave a great answer. One things about possessions is not necessarily our having of them–but our attachment to them. Think about it, even the Missionaries of Charity have a few possessions!

The issue is whether our possessions possess us. Think of those folks in KS who lost everything in the tornado. If they and their families escaped with their lives they are still rich. (Those who died in faith are also still rich!)

We are not all called to monastic life. Those of us who are married with families will have stuff. Clothes, toys, etc. The question is does our pursuit and upkeep of that stuff keep us from God. Do we want to go shopping rather than to Mass? Do we buy lots of pretty rosaries, but never actually find the time to say it? That sort of thing. I think you can find a balance in your own life between having the stuff you need to live and having so much stuff it drowns out God’s voice.

As for your friend had his ideas about sex–you KNOW those are flawed. Read JPII’s theology of the body (Christopher West has written a simplified version). That will help in your discussions with him.