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GloriousOrder
Guest
Judge_Mental, I love you. 
May all ecumenism of the future be predicated on this post.
May all ecumenism of the future be predicated on this post.
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Judge_Mental
Guest
Thanks very much!
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
I think we need to define more terms here.
Ecumenism:
a movement promoting union between religions (especially between Christian churches)
(Christianity) the doctrine of the ecumenical movement that promotes cooperation and better understanding among different religious denominations: aimed at universal Christian unity
Interfaith:
If it is just Christians at Assisi then it is ecumenism
Ecumenism:
a movement promoting union between religions (especially between Christian churches)
(Christianity) the doctrine of the ecumenical movement that promotes cooperation and better understanding among different religious denominations: aimed at universal Christian unity
Interfaith:
- involving persons of different religious faiths; “an interfaith marriage”; “interfaith good will”
If it is just Christians at Assisi then it is ecumenism
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GaryTaylor
Guest
So true, and a most important issue as we have walked deep into the age of the super-information highway. Simple issues of Fear and Trust just cannot be overcome but in person.
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rben20
Guest
From previous Assisi meetings, I don’t recall any converts. I also wonder if there would ever be an “Assisi” as SSPX has suggested in Mecca?
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ConstantineTG
Guest
1st - do the Church have to interview every convert asking, “were you converted by the meeting in Assisi?” If there are converts, how are we to know?
2nd - again don’t compare us with any other faith. Our charity should surpass them all. So what if the Muslims are not open? Thats their problem, not ours. We do not go down to their level.
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Lormar
Guest
You’ve spoken to every single person who converted to Catholicism since 1986 in order to ascertain that? Wow! That must have been some feat!!!
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ProVobis
Guest
Whether it’s ecumenism or interfaith, isn’t the objective of Assisi-type events a seeking of some (more) common ground between faiths and/or philosophies? It may be nice to get converts to your side but that can go both ways too. You always risk losing more than you gain. But that possibility exists even without such events. The largest denomination in the U.S. today is/are ex-Catholics. Who knows what the exact reasons for the exodus were.
Then there is the issue of creating more such denominations, but that’s another thread.
Then there is the issue of creating more such denominations, but that’s another thread.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Exactly then we can open missions, feed the poor, teach by example, and do what we have been doing since Christ. Without having killing Catholics be the sport of the day. Thats how real conversion happens. Its not that it ever stops, its just that some of these areas are so dangerous now, even the Red Cross doesn’t want to go in. They are looking for help in Pakistan Food Banks as I type.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Right, the first objective is find a common ground and remove the hostility against Catholics. While we are not afraid to die for our faith, much more of God’s work can be done in peace. Ecumenical events aren’t the be-all, end-all of conversion, its just a first step.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
You know what I really think it is in the US. God has spared us the test. We wouldn’t have survived it, were not ready. Look at Poland for example. 5x the age of the US, basically an entirely Catholic population. And look at the Cross those people carried. Man, we couldn’t have did that. Either everyone would have came right back in the fold. Or we’d be history. And there to is another example with the Blessed Mother. Which finds so much contempt today in the US. Tell me how Marys, Goddess, evil Catholic corruptness of Rome hurt Poland? They been consecrated to the Blessed Mother since day one with the Apostle Lukes painting there for centurys. It just another example of the foolish, disbelief and lack of understanding and real faith that we are dealing with here in the US. Italy? another area consecrated to Mary which withstood so much pure evil.
Or the last few Popes all were evil? Another US perpetuated, uneducated myth. John Paul almost single handed defeats the real evil, communism. Benedict, well I don’t believe there are 10 Theologians alive today in his league. God couldn’t have picked a better man to get us through this decade.
The church is just attacked on so many sides today by so much nonsense.
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rben20
Guest
Well exactly. I didn’t interview but my understanding is these are leaders of other philosophies and faiths. If the dali lama converted to Catholicism, I’m willing to bet that would make some kind of news…at least Catholic news but that hasn’t happened.
Conversion is a process. Getting together for a weekend where people are solid in their views (assumption as leaders of faiths are generally strong) doesn’t seem to have an ultimate end or goal in mind except to be…nice and accepting.
Like I said earlier…they meet to pray together but for what or who they actually pray to is definitely up for grabs and if that is the case then it’s ultimately meaningless. The Hindu will not pray to the Holy Trinity. He will pray to false gods. The Rabbi will pray to God but not the Holy Trinity. Seriously…what’s the point of gathering to pray if the gods or God you believe in don’t even match? If Catholicism claims to be the One and only Truth Faith, what are we saying by standing side by side religiously? Surely we should stand together as human kind but not religiously…we simply don’t have the same view points and in my opinion keep showing to the world that we are all equal in some way and all go to heaven and have salvation.
What would Pope Pius XII consider of all this? I mean it just seems ridiculous that 50 years ago I would have been told by the Church that this would be wrong on all accounts but now in this day in age it is alright? Something is off but you can no more prove converts as I assert that there aren’t.
Conversion is a process. Getting together for a weekend where people are solid in their views (assumption as leaders of faiths are generally strong) doesn’t seem to have an ultimate end or goal in mind except to be…nice and accepting.
Like I said earlier…they meet to pray together but for what or who they actually pray to is definitely up for grabs and if that is the case then it’s ultimately meaningless. The Hindu will not pray to the Holy Trinity. He will pray to false gods. The Rabbi will pray to God but not the Holy Trinity. Seriously…what’s the point of gathering to pray if the gods or God you believe in don’t even match? If Catholicism claims to be the One and only Truth Faith, what are we saying by standing side by side religiously? Surely we should stand together as human kind but not religiously…we simply don’t have the same view points and in my opinion keep showing to the world that we are all equal in some way and all go to heaven and have salvation.
What would Pope Pius XII consider of all this? I mean it just seems ridiculous that 50 years ago I would have been told by the Church that this would be wrong on all accounts but now in this day in age it is alright? Something is off but you can no more prove converts as I assert that there aren’t.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
The goal is not to convert the religious leaders. Its like asking the Pope to convert to Buddhisim or Islam. It just won’t happen. The point here is to show that we can be united and work together regardless of our difference in belief. We want to show what Catholic charity is all about. We have some image building to do as we have been cast in a negative light for so many years that Catholics think everyone who is not Catholic will go to hell. If we don’t change that perception, we won’t win many converts.
A process means theres many steps and it will take time. It seems that you’re asking for a home run. The Church rather would go base to base.
No, the problem is you’re pretty sure of your claiming. No one is claiming for sure that there are converts. Because the truth is we do not know either way. Lets be humble and truthful about it.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
How are we showing unity when we are gathering together to all pray to different gods?
There are other ways to show unity. Interfaith dialogue, shared charitable work.
How does this unity work towards conversion?
This is my issue. Interfaith prayer services. Other faiths are praying to their gods (or lack of god as the case maybe) while we are praying to God. This does not show unity nor that we can work together, this gives the appearance of religious relativism, that all are paths to salvation. They are not. Only the Catholic Church contains the fullness of the Faith. Other religions may contain some Truth, but none of them contain the whole Truth nor are any of them paths of salvation. Salvation is only through Christ and His Church. When we enter into these interfaith prayer services we blur this line.
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Peter_Gabriel
Guest
Part of the reason I converted was because I knew I would probably go to hell if I wasn’t Catholic. It is a dogma you know, its been taught since the beginning. I know there are various interpretations of this, and possible exceptions, but Jesus didn’t say everyone comes to the Father through me or whatever way their consciences lead them. The truth is not a hindrance to people’s salvation, it is their salvation.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Again, home run vs. base hit. What divides us is our beliefs. By showing respect, it will open avenues.
Thats already being done in many places. Should we limit ourselves to one or two ways?
As I mentioned in the whole post, we need an “image makeover” so to speak. Many see us as the “join us or burn in hell” religion. Nobody is going to convert to a faith with that image.
It shows respect. It shows we can exist side by side. Its the first step to conversion. We can’t be converting people if they’re trying to kill us or we’re trying to kill them (hey, it has happened in the past). Plus, how do Catholics convert others if we have this attitude that non-Catholics are to be avoided like a plague? The Apostles lived among gentile pagans. They didn’t convert them the first day they landed on their lands, it was a slow process.
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Ed_Normile
Guest
I have read much about the firts Assisi meeting that semed really out there, way beyond what I would consider good or true examples of ecumenism. I would think that any ecumenical effort put forth by the Catholic Church would have to adhere to the standards of the church to be valid and true. The Apostles converted many pagans and non-religious, not by entertaining their practises by joining in them rather by firmly teaching them the truth.
I do not think the apostles adopted the practises of “pagan” religions and then replaced their days with her feast days as I have seen alluded to here, the church superceded the pagan rituals with the truth. I would feel that dialogue would be good, guided by the truths we hold and the Holy Spirit, this would not include acceptance of any practise that is not held as true by the mother Chirch. Of course Baptism, biblical passages from the Holy Bible, and other tenants of christianity are meritous and true. the things like buddhists statues and korans and tribal shamans need to be taught they are wrong, not accepted in whole or part and definetly not participated in. How can the Church hold that homosexuality is a sin while reaching out to institutions that ordain active homosexuals without correcting them? What truth of christianity is to be found in a shamans rituals? Did the Apostles recognize Apollo, Ceres, Minerva or Neptune or did they teach the truth of The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
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I do not think the apostles adopted the practises of “pagan” religions and then replaced their days with her feast days as I have seen alluded to here, the church superceded the pagan rituals with the truth. I would feel that dialogue would be good, guided by the truths we hold and the Holy Spirit, this would not include acceptance of any practise that is not held as true by the mother Chirch. Of course Baptism, biblical passages from the Holy Bible, and other tenants of christianity are meritous and true. the things like buddhists statues and korans and tribal shamans need to be taught they are wrong, not accepted in whole or part and definetly not participated in. How can the Church hold that homosexuality is a sin while reaching out to institutions that ordain active homosexuals without correcting them? What truth of christianity is to be found in a shamans rituals? Did the Apostles recognize Apollo, Ceres, Minerva or Neptune or did they teach the truth of The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
I’m not saying its not true. But we don’t have to be in-your-face about it. We’ve been credited for burning heretics and non-believers at the stake. I never said the point here is to say that you don’t need to be Catholic to be saved. One does need to be. But look at what Jesus did, he painstakingly explained everything. He could have just said, “follow me or go to hell.” Conversion isn’t meant to be forced. I’m Filipino, the Philippines was Christianized by the Spanish Inquisition. If you were not Catholic back then, you’re treated like dirt. Where Chinatown is today in Manila is where it is not because the Chinese chose to settle there. It was outside the city walls of Old Manila (Intramuros) because the Chinese were pagans and were not worthy to live amongst the Spanish elite, who were Catholics. The Chinese were forced outside the city.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
That is exactly what the Apostles did. They adopted local customs and traditions and, as my priest would term it, “baptize the holiday”. In other words, make it Christian. That is why we have Christmas at Winter Solstice, All Saints Day around the time of the Day of the Dead for several pagan religions, etc.
The Apostles actually told the gentiles that the unnamed supreme god they worship is actually Jesus Christ. Read up on Church history, its there.
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archangel04
Guest
Actually Fr. Mitch Pacwa briefly explained that Christmas was not put on at the winter solstice is order to “over ride” the pagan holiday. It was on the episode of EWTN live where they talked about the 3rd edition of the Roman missal. I wish I could get a link to it.
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