What are you protesting?

[GregoryPalamas]

Are trying to say that you are perfect on your own. Don’t you see that we are made righteous through Christ. His sacrifice means that we, sinners, are made righteous and can enter Heaven. It is all because of Him that we can come before the Father.

Yes I know that as Christians we are to turn from all unrighteousness, and live a life that resembles Christ. But tell me how does doing that cleanse us from sin? Also no one is going to be perfect until we reach Heaven. Jesus says that we are going to be judged on every idle thing that comes out of our mouth.
Matthew 12:36
And I tell you this, you must give an account on judgment day for every idle word you speak.

This is impossible for anyone to keep there entire lives whether Christian or not. This is why we need Christ. Of course it is our heart that produces unrighteous stuff to come out of our mouthes. So it is important that we align our hearts with Christ. However it is Christ that makes up for our sin. This is my point. Too many people think that simply because they are good people they are going to Heaven. This is not the case. We all need Christ. Without Him we are doomed.

The difference between your religion and the religion that Christ established is that the Holy Spirit is guiding us to all truth. Since the Holy Spirit goes wherever the Holy Spirit wishes I pray that you will be open to Him as He leads you to the Church He is guiding. In Christ is all righteousness, wisdom, glory, and might. That is why He led me to the Church of which He is the head. I encourage you to come home to it.

CDL

 

[ibkc]

Are trying to say that you are perfect on your own. Don’t you see that we are made righteous through Christ. His sacrifice means that we, sinners, are made righteous and can enter Heaven. It is all because of Him that we can come before the Father.

Yes I know that as Christians we are to turn from all unrighteousness, and live a life that resembles Christ. But tell me how does doing that cleanse us from sin?

Baptism cleanses us from original sin. A lifetime of reconciliation clears away our ongoing sins. In purgatory we are made perfect so that we can worthy to be in the presence of God.

This is my point. Too many people think that simply because they are good people they are going to Heaven. This is not the case. We all need Christ. Without Him we are doomed.

We all agree on that. I will add that too many people believe that simply stating one’s faith in Christ will get a person into heaven. Not so.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[Benu2007]

Baptism cleanses us from original sin. A lifetime of reconciliation clears away our ongoing sins. In purgatory we are made perfect so that we can worthy to be in the presence of God.

Luke 23:42-43
*But the other criminal protested, “Don’t you fear God even when you have been sentenced to die? 41 We deserve to die for our crimes, but this man hasn’t done anything wrong.” 42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your Kingdom.”

43 And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.”*
This man was not baptised. He was saved because he called out to God with a sinscere heart.

Romans 10:10
For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. 11 As the Scriptures tell us, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.” 12 Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on him. 13 For “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
To points here can be made.

1. It is by calling on the name of the Lord that we are saved. Not baptism.
2. When we believe in our heart that Jesus Christ is Lord then we are made right with God. We are not made right through Purgatory.

Hebrews 10:10
For God’s will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time.

Christs sacrifice made us holy once and for all. So there is no need for purgatory since because of His sacrifice we are already fully holy and righteous.

1 John 1:9 says the same thing
But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness.

You see we are cleansed from all sin because of Christ’s sacrifice. This is what the Bible says. Anyone who says differently is not speaking the word of God. This is why the teaching of purgatory is so bad because it says Christ’s sacrifice was not complete when it was.

 

[dosdog]

James 1
21 Wherefore casting away all uncleanness, and abundance of naughtiness, with meekness receive the ingrafted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 23 For if a man be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he shall be compared to a man beholding his own countenance in a glass.

 

[dosdog]

James 1
21 Wherefore casting away all uncleanness, and abundance of naughtiness, with meekness receive the ingrafted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 23 For if a man be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he shall be compared to a man beholding his own countenance in a glass.

Matthew 25
41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. 46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

 

[Benu2007]

We all agree on that. I will add that too many people believe that simply stating one’s faith in Christ will get a person into heaven. Not so.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

These are excellent scriptures. I especially liked Titus 1:16 as I haven’t noticed that before.

So many people think that they are saved simply because they call themselves a Christian. But this is not true.

Matthew 7:15-20
“Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves. 16 You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. 18 A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. 19 So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. 20 Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions.

When we belong to Christ we bear fruit that shows our faith. This is why James says faith without works is dead - we don’t really have faith. So our works or fuit show that we belong to Christ. A true Christian doesn’t do works, however, because they feel they have to as a Christian. They do it because it is in their nature to.

Hebrews 10:16
“This is the new covenant I will make
with my people on that day, says the Lord:
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”

So when the law is written on our hearts we do it because it is in our nature. Not because we are trying to show our righteousness.

 

[dosdog]

Luke 23:42-43
teaching of purgatory .

Purgatory
Purification necessary for heaven Heb 12:14; Rev 21:27
An intermediate state of purification Mt 5:26; Lk 12:58-59
Degrees of expiation of sins Lk 12:47-48
Can be aided by prayer 2Mac 12:45
Salvation; but only as through fire 1Cor 3:15
Temporary agony 1 Cor 3:15; Mt 5:25-26
Christ preached to spiritual beings 1 Pet 3:19
Nothing unclean shall enter heaven Rev 21:27
Sacrifice for the dead 2 Mac 12:43-46
A reality beyond the two realms of Heaven and Earth a place between or near 2 Cor 5:10; Rev; 5: 2;3 Rev; 5:23; Phil 2:10; Matt 18: 23-25 Luke 23:42
No forgiveness in this age nor in the age to come. Mt 12:32
“Extra” suffering. Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14

Hell - (Gehenna)
Prepared for devil and his angels Mt 25:41; Rev 14:9-11
Place of darkness and silence Ps 88:6; 115:17; Mt 8:12; 22-13; 25:30; 2Pet 2:17; Jude 13
Called a pit Job 26:5-6; Ps 88:6; 2 Pet 2:4
Called a prison Job 38:17; Is 24:22
Place of misery and torment Dan 12:2; Mt 8:11-12; 13:42; 22:13; Lk 13:24-118; Rom 2:8; Rev 14:9-11; 19:20
Exclusion from God’s presence Mt 5 20; 7:21-23; Lk 13:24-23; 1Cor 6:9-11; Gal 5:21; 2Thess 1:9
Fires of hell Mt 5:22; 18:9; 25:41; Mk 9:43; Lk 3:17; Jas 3:6; Jude 7; Rev 19:20; 20:10; 21:8
Hell is wages of sin Is 3:11; Rom 2:6; 6:21-23; 1Cor 6:9-10; Gal 6:7; Jas 1:15; Rev 21:8;
Punishment for willful rejection of God’s grace Jn 12:48; Rom 2:5; 2Thess 1:8; Heb 2:2-3; 6:4-6; 10:26-29
No further chance of repentance Heb 12:17
infpage.com/concordance/lasthings.htm

 

[ibkc]

Luke 23:42-43
*But the other criminal protested, “Don’t you fear God even when you have been sentenced to die? 41 We deserve to die for our crimes, but this man hasn’t done anything wrong.” 42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your Kingdom.”

43 And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.”*
This man was not baptised. He was saved because he called out to God with a sinscere heart.

Sure. Baptism is a normative rather than an absolute necessity, to quote Catholic Answer’s essay on the subject. It is possible to have a baptism of desire. But it is better to receive the sacrament to remove all possibility of doubt. As it is said in 1 Peter, chapter 3:
21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
See also Acts 2:38:
38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

And Acts 22:16:
16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

And Romans 6:3-4
3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

1. It is by calling on the name of the Lord that we are saved. Not baptism.

Hopefully, the scriptures I provided you above will give you some food for thought regarding this.

You see we are cleansed from all sin because of Christ’s sacrifice. This is what the Bible says. Anyone who says differently is not speaking the word of God. This is why the teaching of purgatory is so bad because it says Christ’s sacrifice was not complete when it was.

dosdog posted a ton of great Biblical sources to show that Purgatory is very much in line with Christian teachings. The existence of Purgatory does not take away from Christ’s sacrifice. All those in Purgatory will make it to Heaven. It is simply a state of cleansing to make us flawed humans perfect for the presence of God.

 

[dosdog]

Protestant position on Good works
The heretical doctrine that Christians are exempt from the obligations of moral law. The term first came into use at the Protestant Reformation when it was employed by Martin Luther to designate the teachings of Johannes Agricola and his secretaries, who, pushing a mistaken and perverted interpretation of the Reformer’s doctrine of justification by faith alone to a far-reaching but logical conclusion, asserted that, as good works do not promote salvation, so neither do evil works hinder it

; and, as all Christians are necessarily sanctified by their very vocation and profession, so as justified Christians, they are incapable of losing their spiritual holiness, justification, and final salvation by any act of disobedience to, or even by any direct violation of the law of God. This theory — for it was not, and is not necessarily, anything more than a purely theoretical doctrine, and many professors of Antinomianism, as a matter of fact, led, and lead, lives quite as moral as those of their opponents — was not only a more or less natural outgrowth from the distinctively Protestant principle of justification by faith, but probably also the result of an erroneous view taken with regard to the relation between the Jewish and Christian dispensations and the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments. Doubtless a confused understanding of the Mosaic ceremonial precepts and the fundamental moral law embodied in the Mosaic code was to no small extent operative in allowing the conception of true Christian liberty to grow beyond all reasonable bounds, and to take the form of a theoretical doctrine of unlimited licentiousness. newadvent.org/cathen/01564b.htm

Although the term designating this error came into use only in the sixteenth century, the doctrine itself can be traced in the teaching of the earlier heresies. Certain of the Gnostic sect — possibly, for example, Marcion and his followers, in their antithesis of the Old and New Testament, or the Carpoeratians, in their doctrine of the indifference of good works and their contempt for all human laws — held Antinomian or quasi-Antinomian views. In any case, it is generally understood that Antinomianism was professed by more than one of the Gnostic schools.

Several passages of the New Testament writings are quoted in support of the contention that even as early as Apostolic times it was found necessary to single out and combat this heresy in its theoretical or dogmatic as well as in its grosser and practical form. The indignant words of St. Paul in his Epistles to the Romans and to the Ephesians (Romans 3:8, 31; 6:1; Ephesians 5:6) as well as those of St. Peter, the Second Epistle (2 Peter 2:18, 19), seem to lend direct evidence in favour of this view. Forced into a somewhat doubtful prominence by the “slanderers” against whom the Apostle found it necessary to warn the faithful, persisting spasmodically in several of the Gnostic bodies, and possibly also colouring some of the tenets of the Abigenses, Antinomianism reappeared definitely, as a variant of the Protestant doctrine of faith, early in the history of the German Reformation

St. Alphonsus Liguori states that after Luther’s death Agricola went to Berlin, commenced teaching his blasphemies again, and died there, at the age of seventy-four, without any sign of repentance; also, that Florinundus calls the

Antinomians “Atheists who believe in neither God nor the devil.” So much for the origin and growth of the Antinomian heresy in the Lutheran body. Among the high Calvinists also the doctrine was to be found in the teaching that the elect do not sin by the commission of actions that in themselves are contrary to the precepts of the moral law, which the Anabaptists of Munster had no scruple in putting these theories into actual practice.

 

[Benu2007]

Purgatory
Purification necessary for heaven Heb 12:14; Rev 21:27
An intermediate state of purification Mt 5:26; Lk 12:58-59
Degrees of expiation of sins Lk 12:47-48
Can be aided by prayer 2Mac 12:45
Salvation; but only as through fire 1Cor 3:15
Temporary agony 1 Cor 3:15; Mt 5:25-26
Christ preached to spiritual beings 1 Pet 3:19
Nothing unclean shall enter heaven Rev 21:27
Sacrifice for the dead 2 Mac 12:43-46
A reality beyond the two realms of Heaven and Earth a place between or near 2 Cor 5:10; Rev; 5: 2;3 Rev; 5:23; Phil 2:10; Matt 18: 23-25 Luke 23:42
No forgiveness in this age nor in the age to come. Mt 12:32
“Extra” suffering. Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14

I bet you’ve never read these scriptures or at least thought about them. They are just what people have said refer to Purgatory. Nor did you take into account what I said in my last post showing why purgatory is false. I have gone over some of these verses in previuos posts but I will do it again going over each point. It will take a while and many posts so please bear with me and read it. Ask many questions about what I have said, if you have any, to test what I am saying or for clarity.

1. Purification necessary

Hebrews 12:14
Work at living in peace with everyone, and work at living a holy life, for those who are not holy will not see the Lord.

Revalation 21:27
Nothing evil will be allowed to enter, nor anyone who practices shameful idolatry and dishonesty—but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

These are simply saying that anyone who is unholy will not enter the Kingdom of God. So then what makes us holy?

Hebrews 10:10
For God’s will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time.

This scripture clearly shows us that it was Christ’s sacrifice that makes us holy once and for all. So there is no need for us to be in Purgatory because once we accept Christ we are already holy and can thus enter the kingdom of God. So you’re first two scriptures don’t show purgatory at all. Instead a need for Christ.

1. An intermediary state of purification

Matthew 5:26
And if that happens, you surely won’t be free again until you have paid the last penny.

Luke 12:58-59
When you are on the way to court with your accuser, try to settle the matter before you get there. Otherwise, your accuser may drag you before the judge, who will hand you over to an officer, who will throw you into prison. 59 And if that happens, you won’t be free again until you have paid the very last penny.

These are the same and Luke is more in context. This is giving nothing more than life teachings. It is saying that we should sort our disputes early because if don’t the people we have wronged will not let us go as easily as they might have had we been good about it in the first place. If you rear end someones car and own up to it straight away it will be much better and that person may even go easy on you than if you refused to accept it and fight. The loss will be much greater and that person will not go easy on you. This is just for life skills. Even if this is a heavenly statement saying if we don’t settle our sin here on Earth before we die the punishment for sin is death. That is eternal Hell. As Romans 6:20-21 says When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the obligation to do right. 21 And what was the result? You are now ashamed of the things you used to do, things that end in eternal doom. If you are trying to say that we will not be released until we have paid for our sin. Then this still does not show purgatory. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. Death is eternal. So to pay the very last penny for sin means we pay eternally. So we will never be released from purgatory. Thus it is Hell. So these verses show no intermediary state.

1. Degrees of Expiation of Sins

Luke 12 47-48
And a servant who knows what the master wants, but isn’t prepared and doesn’t carry out those instructions, will be severely punished. 48 But someone who does not know, and then does something wrong, will be punished only lightly. When someone has been given much, much will be required in return; and when someone has been entrusted with much, even more will be required.

This shows that it is true that some peoples punishments are greater than others. However bible clearly says that sin results in eternal doom (Daniel 12:2; Mark 9:43-48; Romans 6-20-21). This means that those who are being punished less are still being punished eternally just not as badly as others. But even so this passage could just be explaining why some people here on Earth suffered great wrath from God while people today do not for the same kind of stuff (e.g most of the kings of Isreal, those who opposed Moses Exodus 32; Elisha’s servant Kings 5:20-27; Ananias and his wife Sapphira Acts 5:1-11). This is because they knew and had seen God’s true power in action. So when they disobeyed they really met with God’s wrath. People today don’t really see God’s power or even know God. So when they blaspheme and disobey they didn’t get killed or struck with leperosy. However it doesn’t mean that they won’t all be judged. So yes there are degrees of expiation but it is not to do with time but severity of punishment.

 

[dosdog]

As Vatican II states, the Church has consistently believed in a purification of the soul after death. This belief is rooted in the Old Testament. In the Second Book of Maccabees, we read of how Judas Maccabees offered sacrifices and prayers for soldiers who had died wearing amulets, which were forbidden by the law; “Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out,” (2 Mc 12:43) and “Thus, (Judas Maccabees) made atonement for the dead that they might be free from sin” (2 Mc 12:46).

This passage gives evidence of the Jewish practice of offering prayers and sacrifices to cleanse the soul of the departed. Rabbinic interpretation of Scripture also attests to the belief. In the Book of the prophet Zechariah, the Lord spoke, “I will bring the one third through fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined, and I will test them as gold is tested” (Zec 13:9). The school of Rabbi Shammai interpreted this passage as a purification of the soul through God’s mercy and goodness, preparing it for eternal life. In the Book of Sirach, “Withhold not your kindness from the dead” (Sir 7:33), was interpreted as imploring God to cleanse the soul. In sum, the Old Testament clearly attests to some kind of purification process of the soul of the faithful after death.
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/BASISPUR.HTM

in apocryphal Jewish literature to designate the abode of the departed just, the implication generally is

that their condition is one of happiness,
that it is temporary, and
that it is to be replaced by a condition of final and permanent bliss when the Messianic Kingdom is established.
newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm

 

[Benu2007]

Purgatory
Purification necessary for heaven Heb 12:14; Rev 21:27
An intermediate state of purification Mt 5:26; Lk 12:58-59
Degrees of expiation of sins Lk 12:47-48
Can be aided by prayer 2Mac 12:45
Salvation; but only as through fire 1Cor 3:15
Temporary agony 1 Cor 3:15; Mt 5:25-26
Christ preached to spiritual beings 1 Pet 3:19
Nothing unclean shall enter heaven Rev 21:27
Sacrifice for the dead 2 Mac 12:43-46
A reality beyond the two realms of Heaven and Earth a place between or near 2 Cor 5:10; Rev; 5: 2;3 Rev; 5:23; Phil 2:10; Matt 18: 23-25 Luke 23:42
No forgiveness in this age nor in the age to come. Mt 12:32
“Extra” suffering. Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14

1. Can be aided by prayer

2 Maccabees 12:43-46

He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view;
for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.
But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

This is not inspired so is not valid. I have also added verses 43, 44 and 46 because I think it shows more of what you were trying to say and puts it in context. This is trying to say that men can make atonement for those who have died. Only Christ can atone for our sins this what the Bible says in 1 John 2:2
He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world. Your scripture says that man can do it so it is wrong. It is also wrong because people can only be made right when they themselves believe. You can’t believe when you’re dead and you certainly can’t believe for someone else. Romans 10:9-11 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. 11 As the Scriptures tell us, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.
How can they do this if they are dead. Also if they trust in God then they will never be disgraced, never. This is because Christ will raise up on the last day all who believe John 6:40 For it is my Father’s will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life. I will raise them up at the last day. Also Thessalonians 4:13-14 says And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know what will happen to the believers who have died so you will not grieve like people who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.
So there is no need to pray (or pay in this instance) for anyone because if they believe in Christ, then Christ will raise them up. He atones because we believe. How can we believe when we are dead. And since it is when we believe that we are saved how can anyone do anything else for us? 2 Maccabees has got it wrong because it doesn’t recognise that it is Christ who will raise all who have believed and so it therefore is not necessary to do anything once they have died, as I have shown in other scriptures. Your passage is not inspired and shown because it goes against what the Bible says. This point is disproved invalid.

1. Salvation; but only as through fire

This is one of the most out of context, misused scriptures in the entire Bible. The word “as” is not saying “as a means” but is “like”. Some translations like the one I am about to give you even use the word like. When you see it written like this you get the full meaning and you can’t take it out of context.

1 Corinthians 3:15
But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames New Living Translation

The entire passage is refering to those whose work for the Church is not any good. It is saying that although that persons work has not been good they will still be saved - but only just. Read it for yourself.
1 Corinthians 3:10-15
Because of God’s grace to me, I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one we already have—Jesus Christ.
12 Anyone who builds on that foundation may use a variety of materials—gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay, or straw. 13 But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person’s work has any value. 14 If the work survives, that builder will receive a reward. 15 But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.

This scripture is therefore not saying that we can be saved through fire

 

[Benu2007]

Purgatory
Purification necessary for heaven Heb 12:14; Rev 21:27
An intermediate state of purification Mt 5:26; Lk 12:58-59
Degrees of expiation of sins Lk 12:47-48
Can be aided by prayer 2Mac 12:45
Salvation; but only as through fire 1Cor 3:15
Temporary agony 1 Cor 3:15; Mt 5:25-26
Christ preached to spiritual beings 1 Pet 3:19
Nothing unclean shall enter heaven Rev 21:27
Sacrifice for the dead 2 Mac 12:43-46
A reality beyond the two realms of Heaven and Earth a place between or near 2 Cor 5:10; Rev; 5: 2;3 Rev; 5:23; Phil 2:10; Matt 18: 23-25 Luke 23:42
No forgiveness in this age nor in the age to come. Mt 12:32
“Extra” suffering. Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14

1. Temporary agony

1 Corrinthians 3:15
But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.
As shown before this verse has nothing to do with temporary agony.

Matthew 5:25-26
When you are on the way to court with your adversary, settle your differences quickly. Otherwise, your accuser may hand you over to the judge, who will hand you over to an officer, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 And if that happens, you surely won’t be free again until you have paid the last penny.
As shown before the penlaty of sin is death (Romans 6:23) and we will never coplete our punishment because it is eternal (Romans 6:20-21). The agony here will therefore be eternal, not temporary.

1. Christ preached to spiritual beings

1 Peter 3:19
So he went and preached to the spirits in prison—

This out of context. It doesn’t even finish the sentance.

Verses 18-20 say: *Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.
19 So he went and preached to the spirits in prison—20 those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. *

These spiritual beings were those killed in the flood. This verse is actually saying it was by His Spirit that it was also preach to those people in Noah’s day through Noah. It is just saying that they are in prison now. It is saying that God had longsuffering while waiting in those days too. Look at how the New King James Verson gives the same passage.

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

So this is actually refering to when those spirits were alive. He waited then in longsuffering that all then may be saved. He was also waiting in longsuffering in Peters day. That is the nature of Christ.

 

[dosdog]

1. Temporary agony

1 Corrinthians 3:15
But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.
As shown before this verse has nothing to do with temporary agony.

Matthew 5:25-26
When you are on the way to court with your adversary, settle your differences quickly. Otherwise, your accuser may hand you over to the judge, who will hand you over to an officer, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 And if that happens, you surely won’t be free again until you have paid the last penny.
As shown before the penlaty of sin is death (Romans 6:23) and we will never coplete our punishment because it is eternal (Romans 6:20-21). The agony here will therefore be eternal, not temporary.

1. Christ preached to spiritual beings

1 Peter 3:19
So he went and preached to the spirits in prison—

This out of context. It doesn’t even finish the sentance.

Verses 18-20 say: *Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.
19 So he went and preached to the spirits in prison—20 those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. *

These spiritual beings were those killed in the flood. This verse is actually saying it was by His Spirit that it was also preach to those people in Noah’s day through Noah. It is just saying that they are in prison now. It is saying that God had longsuffering while waiting in those days too. Look at how the New King James Verson gives the same passage.

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

So this is actually refering to when those spirits were alive. He waited then in longsuffering that all then may be saved. He was also waiting in longsuffering in Peters day. That is the nature of Christ.

I desire, Jesus told Sister Faustina, that during these nine days you bring souls to the fount of My mercy, that they may draw therefrom strength and refreshment and whatever graces they need in the hardships of life and, especially, at the hour of death. On each day you will bring to My Heart a different group of souls, and you will immerse them in this ocean of My mercy, and I will bring all these souls into the house of My Father … On each day you will beg My Father, on the strength of My bitter Passion, for graces for these souls. (1209)

First Day: Souls of sinners and all mankind

Second Day: Souls of priests and religious - Today bring to Me the souls of priests and religious, and immerse them in My unfathomable mercy. It was they who gave Me the strength to endure My bitter Passion. Through them, as through channels, My mercy flows out upon mankind.

Third Day: Devout and faithful souls

Fourth Day: Souls of pagans

Fifth Day: Souls of heretics and schismatics - Today bring to Me the souls of heretics and schismatics, and immerse them in the ocean of My mercy. During My bitter Passion they tore at My Body and Heart; that is, My Church. As they return to unity with the Church, My wounds heal, and in this way they alleviate My Passion.

Sixth Day: Meek and humble souls

Seventh Day: Souls who especialy venerate and glorify the mercy of Jesus

Eighth Day: Souls in Purgatory - Today bring to Me the souls who are in the prison of Purgatory, and immerse them in the abyss of My mercy. Let the torrents of My Blood cool down their scorching flames. All these souls are greatly loved by Me. They are making retribution to My justice. It is in your power to bring them relief. Draw all the indulgences from the treasury of My Church and offer them the alms of the spirit and pay off their debt to My justice

Ninth Day: Lukewarm souls
divinemercysunday.com/vision.htm

 

[ibkc]

2 Maccabees 12:43-46
This is not inspired so is not valid.

Maccabees was part of the Septuagint - the scriptures that the Jews used before the destruction of the Temple. Jesus and the first Christians used the Septuagint. Maccabees and the other deuterocanonical scriptures were part of the Christian Bible for over a thousand years until everyone’s favorite renegade German, Martin Luther, decided he didn’t like what it said and tossed it out. What is not valid is his lame reasoning for this action. Maccabees is every bit as inspired and valid as the rest of the Bible.

 

[dosdog]

Maccabees was part of the Septuagint - the scriptures that the Jews used before the destruction of the Temple. Jesus and the first Christians used the Septuagint. Maccabees and the other deuterocanonical scriptures were part of the Christian Bible for over a thousand years until everyone’s favorite renegade German, Martin Luther, decided he didn’t like what it said and tossed it out. What is not valid is his lame reasoning for this action. Maccabees is every bit as inspired and valid as the rest of the Bible.

references to the Apocrypha in the margins of the Old and New Testaments of the King James version as printed in 1611

Matthew 6 7 And when you are praying, speak not much, as the heathens. For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard.

Ecclesiasticus 7:14. Be not willing to make any manner of lie: for the custom thereof is not good. 7:15. Be not full of words in a multitude of ancients, and repeat not the word in thy prayer.

Matthew 23 37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldest not?

2Esdr 1:30 I gathered you together, as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings: but now, what shall I do unto you? I will cast you out from my face.31 When ye offer unto me, I will turn my face from you: for your solemn feastdays, your new moons, and your circumcisions, have I forsaken. 32 I sent unto you my servants the prophets, whom ye have taken and slain, and torn their bodies in pieces, whose blood I will require of your hands, saith the Lord.

Luke 14 13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, and the blind; 14 And thou shalt be blessed, because they have not wherewith to make thee recompense: for recompense shall be made thee at the resurrection of the just.

Tobias 4:7. Give alms out of thy substance, and turn not away thy face from any poor person: for so it shall come to pass that the face of the Lord shall not be turned from thee 8. According to thy ability be merciful.

Mat 6:7 Ecclesiasticus 7
Mat 23:37 2 Esdras 1
Mat 27:43 Wisdom 2
Luke 6:31 Tobit 4
Luke 14:13 Tobit 4
John 10:22 1 Maccabees
Rom 9:21 Wisdom 15
Rom 11:34 Wisdom 9
2 Cor 9:7 Ecclesiasticus 35
Heb 1:3 Wisdom 7
Heb 11:35 2 Maccabees 7

 

[Benu2007]

Purgatory
Purification necessary for heaven Heb 12:14; Rev 21:27
An intermediate state of purification Mt 5:26; Lk 12:58-59
Degrees of expiation of sins Lk 12:47-48
Can be aided by prayer 2Mac 12:45
Salvation; but only as through fire 1Cor 3:15
Temporary agony 1 Cor 3:15; Mt 5:25-26
Christ preached to spiritual beings 1 Pet 3:19
Nothing unclean shall enter heaven Rev 21:27
Sacrifice for the dead 2 Mac 12:43-46
A reality beyond the two realms of Heaven and Earth a place between or near 2 Cor 5:10; Rev; 5: 2;3 Rev; 5:23; Phil 2:10; Matt 18: 23-25 Luke 23:42
No forgiveness in this age nor in the age to come. Mt 12:32
“Extra” suffering. Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14

1. Nothing unclean shall enter heaven

Revalation 21:27
Nothing evil will be allowed to enter, nor anyone who practices shameful idolatry and dishonesty—but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

True. This is why we need Christ.

1. Sacrifice for the dead

2 Maccabees 12:43-46

I’ve already talked about this book and shown in point 4 that Maccabees is in disagreement with scripture. This is because Scripture says it’s by believing, that we are saved (Romans 10:9-11) Since you can’t believe for someone else, nor can can you believe when you are dead, how can offerring sacrifices for a dead man save them? This is not inspired scripture and is invalid.

1. A reality beyond the two realms of Heaven and Earth a place between or near

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all stand before Christ to be judged. We will each receive whatever we deserve for the good or evil we have done in this earthly body.

Does this verse really indicate anything about a place called Purgatory? This is just in God’s court house.

Revalation 5:2-3
And I saw a strong angel, who shouted with a loud voice: “Who is worthy to break the seals on this scroll and open it?” 3 But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll and read it.

This verse doesn’t even work in your favour. It says there are three places. Heaven, Earth and Hell. No room for Purgatory.

Phillipians 2:10
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Again this is referring to Heaven, Earth and Hell. No room for Purgatory.

Matthew 18:23-25
“Therefore, the Kingdom of Heaven can be compared to a king who decided to bring his accounts up to date with servants who had borrowed money from him. 24 In the process, one of his debtors was brought in who owed him millions of dollars. 25 He couldn’t pay, so his master ordered that he be sold—along with his wife, his children, and everything he owned—to pay the debt.

This is out of context and is teaching about forgiveness. Here is the full passage. Matthew 18:22-35

Then Peter came to him and asked, “Lord, how often should I forgive someone who sins against me? Seven times?”
22 “No, not seven times,” Jesus replied, “but seventy times seven!
23 “Therefore, the Kingdom of Heaven can be compared to a king who decided to bring his accounts up to date with servants who had borrowed money from him. 24 In the process, one of his debtors was brought in who owed him millions of dollars. 25 He couldn’t pay, so his master ordered that he be sold—along with his wife, his children, and everything he owned—to pay the debt.
26 “But the man fell down before his master and begged him, ‘Please, be patient with me, and I will pay it all.’ 27 Then his master was filled with pity for him, and he released him and forgave his debt.
28 “But when the man left the king, he went to a fellow servant who owed him a few thousand dollars. He grabbed him by the throat and demanded instant payment.
29 “His fellow servant fell down before him and begged for a little more time. ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it,’ he pleaded. 30 But his creditor wouldn’t wait. He had the man arrested and put in prison until the debt could be paid in full.
31 “When some of the other servants saw this, they were very upset. They went to the king and told him everything that had happened. 32 Then the king called in the man he had forgiven and said, ‘You evil servant! I forgave you that tremendous debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Shouldn’t you have mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had mercy on you?’ 34 Then the angry king sent the man to prison to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt.
35 “That’s what my heavenly Father will do to you if you refuse to forgive your brothers and sisters from your heart.”

This is teaching about forgiveness. It says that because God as forgiven us so much anything that we hold against other people is nothing in comparison. Because God forgave us we are to forgive others. If we don’t then He will not forgive us our sins. It has nothing to do with Purgatory. These verses have being taken out of context and twisted to prove something which does not exist.

Luke 23:42
Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your Kingdom.”

If you want to get anything from this particular verse just on its own it is that there is another realm other than Earth.
This Kingdom is referring to Heaven considering in the next verse Jesus says “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

This passage shows us that when we call out to Christ He will forgive us. The man on the cross did nothing but ask and Christ gave him life. Notice how Jesus says that he would be with Him in paradice today. Therefore showing that there is no need for purgatory.

All the verses in this point have just said that there are other realms other than Earth. They point out only 3: Heaven, Earth and Hell. Purgatory is never mentioned. Therefore this point is totally invalid.

 

[dosdog]

John Henry Cardinal Newman writes:

The truth itself is declared in one form or another in every part of Scripture. It is told us again and again, that to make sinful creatures holy was the great end which our Lord had in view in taking upon Him our nature, and thus none but the holy will be accepted for His sake at the last day. The whole history of redemption, the covenant of mercy in all its parts and provisions, attests the necessity of holiness in order to salvation; as indeed even our natural conscience bears witness also . . .

Even supposing a man of unholy life were suffered to enter heaven, he would not be happy there; so that it would be no mercy to permit him to enter . . . We conclude that any man, whatever his habits, tastes, or manner of life, if once admitted into heaven, would be happy there . . . [But] here every man can do his own pleasure, but there he must do God’s pleasure . . . . . Let us alone! What have we to do with thee? is the sole thought and desire of unclean souls, even while they acknowledge His majesty. None but the holy can look upon the Holy One; without holiness no man can endure to see the Lord . . .

Heaven is not heaven, is not a place of happiness except to the holy . . . There is a moral malady which disorders the inward sight and taste; and no man labouring under it is in a condition to enjoy what Scripture calls the fulness of joy in God’s presence, and pleasures at His right hand forevermore.

Newman explains (in effect) why purgatory (which he accepts elsewhere, even before his conversion to Catholicism in 1845) is a necessary and indeed, ultimately desirable process for all of us imperfect sinners to undergo, in order to properly approach God in His unfathomable majesty and holiness.
socrates58.blogspot.com/2008/02/biblical-evidence-for-purgatory.html

 

[Benu2007]

Purgatory
Purification necessary for heaven Heb 12:14; Rev 21:27
An intermediate state of purification Mt 5:26; Lk 12:58-59
Degrees of expiation of sins Lk 12:47-48
Can be aided by prayer 2Mac 12:45
Salvation; but only as through fire 1Cor 3:15
Temporary agony 1 Cor 3:15; Mt 5:25-26
Christ preached to spiritual beings 1 Pet 3:19
Nothing unclean shall enter heaven Rev 21:27
Sacrifice for the dead 2 Mac 12:43-46
A reality beyond the two realms of Heaven and Earth a place between or near 2 Cor 5:10; Rev; 5: 2;3 Rev; 5:23; Phil 2:10; Matt 18: 23-25 Luke 23:42
No forgiveness in this age nor in the age to come. Mt 12:32
“Extra” suffering. Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14

1. No forgiveness in this age nor in the age to come.

Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.

This verse says that speaking against the Holy Spirit is unforgiveable. It does not say anything about our sins being purged out in Purgatory. By saying that it will not be forgiven in the world to come it is saying that we cannot enter Heaven.

12 Extra suffering
I* am glad when I suffer for you in my body, for I am participating in the sufferings of Christ that continue for his body, the church.*

This talking about suffering here on Earth. Look at what 1 Peter 4:12-19 says
Dear friends, don’t be surprised at the fiery trials you are going through, as if something strange were happening to you. 13 Instead, be very glad—for these trials make you partners with Christ in his suffering, so that you will have the wonderful joy of seeing his glory when it is revealed to all the world.
14 So be happy when you are insulted for being a Christian, for then the glorious Spirit of God rests upon you. 15 If you suffer, however, it must not be for murder, stealing, making trouble, or prying into other people’s affairs. 16 But it is no shame to suffer for being a Christian. Praise God for the privilege of being called by his name! 17 For the time has come for judgment, and it must begin with God’s household. And if judgment begins with us, what terrible fate awaits those who have never obeyed God’s Good News? 18 And also,

“If the righteous are barely saved,
what will happen to godless sinners?”

19 So if you are suffering in a manner that pleases God, keep on doing what is right, and trust your lives to the God who created you, for he will never fail you.

Peter says that they are suffering on Earth and that this is the kind of suffering that is expected when we belong to Christ. This kind of suffering is only good if it is for doing good. However the suffering in Purgatory is doing bad. It is not a good thing to suffer for as Peter says. The apostles like Peter and Paul wrote to encourage the believers through times of persecution. The kind of suffering they were talking about was suffering while they were alive for being a Christian. Not warning them about Purgatory.

2 Samuel 12:14
Nevertheless, because you have shown utter contempt for the Lord by doing this, your child will die.”

Did you even read these scriptures. This is a punishment for David’s adultery. It is a punishment while he is on Earth. How does this have anything to do with Purgatory?

These verses you have provided do not show Purgatory at all. They are just a list of references to make it look like it can be backed up. However I have easily shown that they do not give any evidence for Purgatory. Furthermore I have also given evidence that shows that Purgatory cannot exist because Christ is what makes us fully righteous. Please read what I have said. And answer my posts if you have any disagreements.

 

[dosdog]

1. No forgiveness in this age nor in the age to come.

Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.

This verse says that speaking against the Holy Spirit is unforgiveable. It does not say anything about our sins being purged out in Purgatory. By saying that it will not be forgiven in the world to come it is saying that we cannot enter Heaven.

12 Extra suffering
I* am glad when I suffer for you in my body, for I am participating in the sufferings of Christ that continue for his body, the church.*

This talking about suffering here on Earth. Look at what 1 Peter 4:12-19 says
Dear friends, don’t be surprised at the fiery trials you are going through, as if something strange were happening to you. 13 Instead, be very glad—for these trials make you partners with Christ in his suffering, so that you will have the wonderful joy of seeing his glory when it is revealed to all the world.
14 So be happy when you are insulted for being a Christian, for then the glorious Spirit of God rests upon you. 15 If you suffer, however, it must not be for murder, stealing, making trouble, or prying into other people’s affairs. 16 But it is no shame to suffer for being a Christian. Praise God for the privilege of being called by his name! 17 For the time has come for judgment, and it must begin with God’s household. And if judgment begins with us, what terrible fate awaits those who have never obeyed God’s Good News? 18 And also,

“If the righteous are barely saved,
what will happen to godless sinners?”

19 So if you are suffering in a manner that pleases God, keep on doing what is right, and trust your lives to the God who created you, for he will never fail you.

Peter says that they are suffering on Earth and that this is the kind of suffering that is expected when we belong to Christ. This kind of suffering is only good if it is for doing good. However the suffering in Purgatory is doing bad. It is not a good thing to suffer for as Peter says. The apostles like Peter and Paul wrote to encourage the believers through times of persecution. The kind of suffering they were talking about was suffering while they were alive for being a Christian. Not warning them about Purgatory.

2 Samuel 12:14
Nevertheless, because you have shown utter contempt for the Lord by doing this, your child will die.”

Did you even read these scriptures. This is a punishment for David’s adultery. It is a punishment while he is on Earth. How does this have anything to do with Purgatory?

These verses you have provided do not show Purgatory at all. They are just a list of references to make it look like it can be backed up. However I have easily shown that they do not give any evidence for Purgatory. Furthermore I have also given evidence that shows that Purgatory cannot exist because Christ is what makes us fully righteous. Please read what I have said. And answer my posts if you have any disagreements.

Biblical Evidence for Purgatory: 25 Bible Passages
socrates58.blogspot.com/2008/02/biblical-evidence-for-purgatory.html