What are you protesting?

[GregoryPalamas]

On every board there seems to always be someone who is impervious to reflection. It doesn’t matter what is said. It doesn’t matter what is offered. It doesn’t matter if everyone else shows exactly why something is obvious so. These people hear nothing and see nothing. Is it pride? Is it foolishness? Is it stubborness? In any event it is most unappealing. BENU is our village i… He will not reason no matter what is demonstrated. There is clear instructions regarding how we should deal with such people. Will we head those instructions?

CDL

 

[rtconstant]

I don’t really get what you mean by “Oneness Pentecostal”. Pentecostal is just a name. They’re on the fundalmentalist side. Catholics are more traditional. Call me a fundalmentalist if you want. The fact is I’m a Christian. I read the bible for myself but I tend to agree more with what the pentecostals say. There is no doctrine of Purgatory among pentecostal circles. I don’t see what you’re getting at. Please explain. Even if there was a belief there. It’s not biblical, so I won’t except it regardless of who tries to say it is.

On the Oneness Pentecostal I apologize I mixed you up with someone else in another thread. What I was getting at was that as a Protestant I would assume that you didn’t believe in Purgatory so I was confused as to why you would object to a particular statement on purgatory when you don’t even believe on the base doctrine.

But in any case I see what you were trying to get at now. Well as you said you won’t accept any evidence for Purgatory but still you should be aware of it. The biblical basis for Purgatory is in 1 Cor 3:15 it is then supported by Matt. 12:32 and Rev. 21:27. Historically we see the belief in affect at least by the second century. I realize that the Bible and history has impacted you thus far but there it is anyway.

 

[rtconstant]

Tyndale was the first person to translate the bible into English. The church also had a ban on translating into other languages. How is that Godly?

No, he wasn’t. He was the first transliterate (it wasn’t a true translation) the Bible into a pseudo-Middle English. His transliteration had a strong Latin base and because of the newness of English his transliteration was not faithful to the tongue. Which is why his transliteration was replaced quickly by one that was in understandable Middle English.

The Vulgate was used for centuries in England because it was closest thing to a common tongue. Even then there had been several attempts at ethnic language translations of the Canon. The Venerable Bede translated at least part of the Bible into Anglo-Saxon but he died soon after finishing the Gospel of St. John.

Also in the seventh century Aldhelm translated the Psalms and Abbot Aelfric translated most of the Old Testament into Anglo-Saxon. Still there wasn’t a high demand for these types of translations as those that could read preferred St. Jerome’s Vulgate.

With the advent of the printing press, more wide spread education and English having actually evolved itself into a true high language The Church released the Douay-Rheims translation in 1582.

Other languages:

The Canon was translated into Abyssian as early as the 5th century.

The Goth’s had a bishop who created an alphabet for the Goths for the express purpose of giving them the scriptures in their language.

In 406 Mesrob invented an alphabet for the Armenians and five years later gave them a New Testament.

In the 9th century Sts. Cyril and Methodius created an alphabet and Bible for the Slavs.

All of this seems like strange behavior for a Church desperate to keep the Bible out of people’s hands.

There was never a ban on translating the Bible into other languages. There have been bans on specific translations and on authorized translations. The Bible is sacred and as such really shouldn’t be translated by every Tom, **** or Harry that thinks they know best.

 

[Benu2007]

St. Alphonsus (c. +1745): “The deeper a soul has fallen into sin, the more it is bound down by the powers of Hell…”

This is essence of what I am saying. We should be place our faith in Christ that He will raise us from the dead into eternal paradise and that we should live our lives for Christ.

Are you trying to say this is some kind of sinful message? Yes or No?

 

[Benu2007]

On every board there seems to always be someone who is impervious to reflection. It doesn’t matter what is said. It doesn’t matter what is offered. It doesn’t matter if everyone else shows exactly why something is obvious so. These people hear nothing and see nothing. Is it pride? Is it foolishness? Is it stubborness? In any event it is most unappealing. BENU is our village i… He will not reason no matter what is demonstrated. There is clear instructions regarding how we should deal with such people. Will we head those instructions?

CDL

Again this is just talk. You have failed to give any evidence against what I have said. Other people have been able to debate fairly well. However you just sit on the sideline shouting insults. I still do not see how you disagree with me. I obviously realise that you do disagree with me but you have hardly said how. You stand up for everyone here just because they are Catholic. WisdomSeeker was actually trying to say that we shouldn’t be able to all have access to the bible. Yet you stand up for him.

Until you answer me and say what you actually believe in and also how my doctrine is so wrong (using the bible of course) you have no right to say anything.

 

[Benu2007]

But in any case I see what you were trying to get at now. Well as you said you won’t accept any evidence for Purgatory but still you should be aware of it. The biblical basis for Purgatory is in 1 Cor 3:15 it is then supported by Matt. 12:32 and Rev. 21:27. Historically we see the belief in affect at least by the second century. I realize that the Bible and history has impacted you thus far but there it is anyway.

Firstly I will say my understanding of Purgatory actually is. Basically that in order to clease us fully from sin we must have them purged out of us in Purgatory. There also certain things that we can do to reduce our time their.

I realise there’s probably more depth to it than that but that’s pretty much the jist of it. So unless I’ve got something completely wrong can we leave that as our definition?

Now lets see what the Bible says in the verses you have given me. I will give several different translations. NKJV, NIV and NLT. Just to compare verses to make this accurate. I will start at verse 12 to put this into context.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15

NKJV
12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

NIV
12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work.
14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.
15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

NLT
12 Anyone who builds on that foundation may use a variety of materials—gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay, or straw. 13 But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person’s work has any value. 14 If the work survives, that builder will receive a reward. 15 But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.

The passage is talking about our work that we do for Christ being examined to see if it really is work for Christ. If it is, then we will be rewarded. However if it does nothing for Christ then we won’t get any reward. Verse 15 says we will still be saved except only just. When looked at in context this is not talking about purgatory. The term “as someone escaping through flames” is meaning only just making it. Not that we have to be purged out of our remaining sins by fire.

Matt 12:32
32 Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.

This is saying that blaspheming the Holy Spirit is unforgivable. It is not saying that there are some sins that God will not forgive in this world but only in the next after they have been purged out.

Revelation 21:27
27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

This verse is just saying that no one with sin can enter the Kingdom of God. Nothing to do with Purgatory.

This is the big problem with Purgatory though - it says that Christ’s sacrifice was not enough to clense us of our sin. Lets see what the Bible says about this.

1 John 1:9 “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

1 John 2:2 “And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.”

Hebrews 10:10 “By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

The Bible says that it is Christ’s sacrifice alone that clenses us from all sin. Either we accept Him or reject Him. However as Hebrews 10:38-39 says “And my righteous ones will live by faith. But I will take no pleasure in anyone who turns away. 39 But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction. We are the faithful ones, whose souls will be saved.”

So you see when we accept Christ we are made fully righteous. These verses make it very clear that we are. If Purgatory were real then it would be in disagreement with the Bible because it is saying that we are made right by a means other than Christ. Those who reject Christ will be destroyed.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Again this is just talk. You have failed to give any evidence against what I have said. Other people have been able to debate fairly well. However you just sit on the sideline shouting insults. I still do not see how you disagree with me. I obviously realise that you do disagree with me but you have hardly said how. You stand up for everyone here just because they are Catholic. WisdomSeeker was actually trying to say that we shouldn’t be able to all have access to the bible. Yet you stand up for him.

Until you answer me and say what you actually believe in and also how my doctrine is so wrong (using the bible of course) you have no right to say anything.

I’ve demonstrated a couple of points and have asked you a couple of questions but as I’ve indicated you don’t know much of anything about the faith. You choose not to offer or respond so I wait, as you say, on the sidelines.

CDL

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Again this is just talk. You have failed to give any evidence against what I have said. Other people have been able to debate fairly well. However you just sit on the sideline shouting insults. I still do not see how you disagree with me. I obviously realise that you do disagree with me but you have hardly said how. You stand up for everyone here just because they are Catholic. WisdomSeeker was actually trying to say that we shouldn’t be able to all have access to the bible. Yet you stand up for him.

Until you answer me and say what you actually believe in and also how my doctrine is so wrong (using the bible of course) you have no right to say anything.

I’ve demonstrated a couple of points and have asked you a couple of questions but as I’ve indicated you don’t know much of anything about the faith. You choose not to offer or respond so I wait, as you say, on the sidelines.

CDL

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Firstly I will say my understanding of Purgatory actually is. Basically that in order to clease us fully from sin we must have them purged out of us in Purgatory. There also certain things that we can do to reduce our time their.

So you see when we accept Christ we are made fully righteous. These verses make it very clear that we are. If Purgatory were real then it would be in disagreement with the Bible because it is saying that we are made right by a means other than Christ. Those who reject Christ will be destroyed.

As usual your conclusion “As you see…” does not follow from your evidence. Could it be possible that you might have missed something or have misinterpreted something? When you are willing to possibly entertain the thought that you might be mistaken even a little bit then a discussion can be worthwhile. If you show some sign, any sign, that you might not know every thing there is to know about everything then I will give you some keys to unlock this mystery of purgatory. Until then.

CDL

 

[wisdomseeker]

This is essence of what I am saying. We should be place our faith in Christ that He will raise us from the dead into eternal paradise and that we should live our lives for Christ.

Are you trying to say this is some kind of sinful message? Yes or No?

Can a man truly say that he follows Christ our Redeemer and yet rejects His truth here on earth like Jesus own Church the Ark of Salvation which He left to gather His followers?

---

Jesus i trust in you. St Faustine***

 

[c659smith]

There is so much to reply to here but I will start with this section. First of all God created Adam Eve. They had no human parents. When they sinned, sin entered the world. Sin was then passed on to their children through them, then their children passed it on and so forth. So basically, humans pass on sin to their children. Do you agree with that? Even Enoch and Elijah were born in sin but they were made right with God because of their faith (Hebrews 11:5-6).

So considering Mary had human parents we cannot say that she wasn’t born in sin. Jesus was born of the Spirit. Therefore He inherited the Spirits sinless nature. Thats the only way he could not have been born in sin. So by you saying Mary was born outside of sin you are saying that she was born of the Spirit too. Making her the daughter of God in the same way that Christ was the Son of God.
You use a capital “H” for “Her” when talking about Mary. Capitals are used to show divinity. The bible does not use Capitals in the same way for Mary.

The people carrying the ark had to sanctified because the Spirit of God dwelt in it. If the Spirit of God was not there then it was just a box. Is Christ still in Mary’s womb?

Benu, your aguments are lame, not scriptural, and make no sense.

Would or could God (Jesus) Christ be in a womb that had, ever was, or ever could be in sin? Now remember the Womb was Mary’s and it was Mary’s Womb.

If the answer is yes then show me scripture for I showed you scripture where this is not possible.

Would Jesus(God) be honoring His Mother by letting Her body rot in the ground. Yes or no

No prophet did what Mary did and to say that two were placed body and Soul to heaven and Mary was not is just ludicrous and makes no sense.

You keep on saying you do not have to follow any laws yet Jesus Himself states to follow the ten Commandments. These are Laws. What are you confused about.

If you have faith and do not follow these laws to the best of your ability than if you were the most faithful person on earth your destination is still hell. That is scriptural

If you do not forgive others than you will not be forgiven. That is a law and even being the most faithful person on earth and not doing this your final destination is more than likely hell. That is scriptural.

Benu you arguments are like a dog chasing it’s tail. You look only where you want and deny that there is another way than going in a circle over and over again taking scripture of of context and reason.

One last question is the word Trinity in the Bible?
Yes or no?

 

[Benu2007]

Benu, your aguments are lame, not scriptural, and make no sense.

Would or could God (Jesus) Christ be in a womb that had, ever was, or ever could be in sin? Now remember the Womb was Mary’s and it was Mary’s Womb.

If the answer is yes then show me scripture for I showed you scripture where this is not possible.

Would Jesus(God) be honoring His Mother by letting Her body rot in the ground. Yes or no

No prophet did what Mary did and to say that two were placed body and Soul to heaven and Mary was not is just ludicrous and makes no sense.

You keep on saying you do not have to follow any laws yet Jesus Himself states to follow the ten Commandments. These are Laws. What are you confused about.

If you have faith and do not follow these laws to the best of your ability than if you were the most faithful person on earth your destination is still hell. That is scriptural

If you do not forgive others than you will not be forgiven. That is a law and even being the most faithful person on earth and not doing this your final destination is more than likely hell. That is scriptural.

Benu you arguments are like a dog chasing it’s tail. You look only where you want and deny that there is another way than going in a circle over and over again taking scripture of of context and reason.

One last question is the word Trinity in the Bible?
Yes or no?

There is nothing wrong with my arguments and are all based on Scripture. How could Jesus not be born in a womb that didn’t have sin since her parents were human?
Your idea that it is wrong for Christ to be in a womb of a sinful person is just you’re opinion, it’s not scriptural.
Why is it that the bible says that Christ would be born of a virgin, yet makes no mention of Mary being sinless.

I have provided a lot of scripture to back up my points. You cannot just call them lame. You don’t listen to what I say either. Millions I have said that we can’t have faith yet go on sinning. If we continue to live a life of sin then obviously we’re not living in faith. Faith involves living for God. If we’re living for God then we’re not going to live to satisfy our own sinful desires. If we are living by faith then we are going to forgive people and do what is right. Did you not follow Galations 5 which I posted for you.

However if our goal is just to not sin, without placing our faith in Christ we will not see heaven. This is because we are made righteous by Christ’s sacrifice, not by our own works. You cannot disagree with this.

The only way the Law can save us is if we keep the entire law. Since this is not true for any of us we are damned. However Christ came to fulfill the law on our behalf. So when we place our faith in Him we will be counted as righteous.

If Mary was sinless and rose into Heaven then why isn’t she talked about in any of the epistles in great depth like Catholics talk about her today. Also you call Mary the mother of God. However, don’t you realise that God is Mary’s creater?
Secondly, considering David was both Mary and Jesus’ ancestor how come he called Christ his Lord? Christ is above all. Christ often said that He and the Father were one, but He never said anything along these lines about Mary.

 

[Benu2007]

Can a man truly say that he follows Christ our Redeemer and yet rejects His truth here on earth like Jesus own Church the Ark of Salvation which He left to gather His followers?

---

Jesus i trust in you. St Faustine***

Let me ask you this. What are the Truthes that Christ lay done for us to obey. Use only the Bible. Considering the Apostles (the Church) wrote the New Testament and I follow that. How am I going against His Church. Explain to me please how I’m not following what the Apostles wrote.

 

[Benu2007]

As usual your conclusion “As you see…” does not follow from your evidence. Could it be possible that you might have missed something or have misinterpreted something? When you are willing to possibly entertain the thought that you might be mistaken even a little bit then a discussion can be worthwhile. If you show some sign, any sign, that you might not know every thing there is to know about everything then I will give you some keys to unlock this mystery of purgatory. Until then.

CDL

My conclusion came exactly from my evidence. Can you please point out in depth where I went wrong other than just saying that I did. If it is possible that I have some how taken those verses out of context then please put them into context and explain what they mean.

 

[Benu2007]

I’ve demonstrated a couple of points and have asked you a couple of questions but as I’ve indicated you don’t know much of anything about the faith. You choose not to offer or respond so I wait, as you say, on the sidelines.

CDL

You haven’t demonstrated any points, your answers have been very weak, they have been inadequate. You haven’t even explained what are the fundamentals of your faith.

 

[Benu2007]

Is the Trinity biblical teaching? Show me in the Bible the word Trinity.

Your contention is that Maary is only mentioned 1% in the bible but yet Peter the Apostle is mentioned 10x more than anyother Apostle but you deny him as being the head of the Church.

The word Trinity is never used in the Bible but the fact that we Baptise in the name of the Farther, Son and Holy Spirit shows that God is three Persons. So we call that Trinity. The early Christians weren’t even called Christians until years after Christs death.

Peter is not the head of the Church - Christ is. Peter was one of the major biulders and known as a pillar. But he’s mentioned nothing compared to Christ.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Let me ask you this. What are the Truthes that Christ lay done for us to obey. Use only the Bible. Considering the Apostles (the Church) wrote the New Testament and I follow that. How am I going against His Church. Explain to me please how I’m not following what the Apostles wrote.

Sorry as catholics we dont use Bible alone. we have the Church to teach and interpret the Bible for us according to Jesus teachings. as for me, believe me, i wouldnt dare trusting myself to interpret God’s words. I dont have such authority. i could not know squad about those times, their customes, the language used, what all meant to them. even the Jews could not understand Jesus and jews had the Scriptures and they were waiting for the messiah who was to come. my question is: where is it in Bible that says anyone can pick up this book and interpret for themselves? what do you think the role of the Church promised by Jesus on this earth is ? if not to teach and gather the faithull. or do you think that the word of God is to be interpret in different manner by everyone? if you remember throught the history of Israel Our God always chose people to give out His message, He never talk to everybody but few chosen by Him as a messenger. just like He chose 12 apostles, He had many disciples but He chose only 12 to be in charge of His Word. do you get it?. as long as you continue to believe that the Bible was written to each of one of you, your blindness will continue.

The New is concealed on the Old and the Old is revealed on the New. Pope John Paul ll.

 

[wisdomseeker]

The word Trinity is never used in the Bible but the fact that we Baptise in the name of the Farther, Son and Holy Spirit shows that God is three Persons. So we call that Trinity. The early Christians weren’t even called Christians until years after Christs death.

Peter is not the head of the Church - Christ is. Peter was one of the major biulders and known as a pillar. But he’s mentioned nothing compared to Christ.

Oh Trinity, a doctrine developed by the Church. Jesus commended Peter to feed His sheeps which he does to this day through our popes. whether you believe or not it makes no difference.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Oh Trinity, a doctrine developed by the Church. Jesus commended Peter to feed His sheeps which he does to this day through our popes. whether you believe or not it makes no difference.

Good concise answer. At this point is the best kind of answer to be given to Benu. I would add that we follow Jesus who established the Church the way He wished to establish it upon the Rock who is Peter. That’s also true whether he believes it or not.

CDL

 

[reteeks21]

Oh Trinity, a doctrine developed by the Church. Jesus commended Peter to feed His sheeps which he does to this day through our popes. whether you believe or not it makes no difference.

And all those other guys who followed Him around weren’t supposed to be responsible for feeding His sheep? James was tossed off the temple for what reason, then? Was Paul not teaching and feeding?