What are you protesting?

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Benu2007 said:
I am merely quoting scripture to you. That’s why I say my authoruty comes the apostles. Not that I am someone great.

You still haven’t answered my questions. If Christ has cleansed us from all unrighteousness then why do we need purgatory.
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What Bible verse says this explicitly? Not indirectly. Not by inference. Directly and explicitly, as in “Those saved WILL go DIRECTLY to heaven without even having to take a shower beforehand!”

You will not be able to produce such a verse, because the Bible does not reveal the exact mechnanisms and steps that the dead will undergo on their way to heaven.
What scripture in the New Testament (considering we disagree on books in the Old Testament) speaks plainly on the concept of purgatory you have talked about?
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Nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven, Rev. 21:27. That leaves out those of you who think that your sins are covered, like snow on a dung heap.

From 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
Here we have an explicit Biblical reference of the dead waiting in a place that is neither Heaven nor Hell.

“I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper” (Luke 12:59)

Between the particular and general judgments, the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin.

Also, CA states:Christ refers to the sinner who “will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? “He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering (“fire”) there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

Don’t come back and tell me that the exact word “Purgatory” isn’t mentioned so that makes the concept invalid. The word “Trinity” isn’t in the Bible either. In fact, the Bible simply is not the only repository of faith. You are missing half of the pieces of the puzzle if you refer only to the Bible and disregard the early Fathers and basic history.
 
dosdog said:
Benu2007- Hey dipstick I am not going to let this GO! - You acted like The Holy Spirit waited 2000 years for you to show up = Welcome to the Crusades.

DD
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Seriously uncalled for. No reason for name calling… EVER. 😦
 
dosdog said:
Benu2007- Hey I am not going to let this GO! - You acted like The Holy Spirit waited 2000 years for you to show up = Welcome to the Crusades.

DD
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Dude what’s your problem. You’re in this for a fight not to help anyone. As a Christian you should be showing love - especially to fellow Christinans.

If you would like to know I live in another part of the world to you so I was getting these posts throughout the night. This post came at 6:59am my time. I also have other things to do during the day such as work and uni stuff. So I’m sorry if I can’t respond straight away to your posts.

Anyway you didn’t even finish of what the rest of the passage said. Neither is your translation a very accurate translation. It said we will not all be changed. However pretty much all other versions say we will not all die but will all be changed. So your point goes against you.

I will show these verses with other translations.

1 Corinthians 15:51
*But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! 52 It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed. *NLT

*Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. *NIV

*Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. *NASB

*Take notice! I tell you a mystery (a secret truth, an event decreed by the hidden purpose or counsel of God). We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed (transformed). 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the [sound of the] last trumpet call. For a trumpet will sound, and the dead [in Christ] will be raised imperishable (free and immune from decay), and we shall be changed (transformed). *Amplified Bible

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. KJV

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. ASV

*Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. *NKJV

Now when you look at many other translations you can see that you’re version is wrong. It’s one vs. many. If I’d given you one translation then said yours was wrong then that wouldn’t be fair. However I have given you seven and I could easily give more if you’d like.

So please go and explain to me how these verses show purgatory. They say that instantantly we will all (that is those who belong to Christ) be transformed into our glorious new bodies. In an instant. No time for purgatory. I will also post you the rest of the passage just so you can see what it is saying.

1 Corinthians 15:51-58
51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! 52 It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed. 53 For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[a] this Scripture will be fulfilled:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.***
55 O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?[c]”

56 For sin is the sting that results in death, and the law gives sin its power. 57 But thank God! He gives us victory over sin and death through our Lord Jesus Christ.

*58 So, my dear brothers and sisters, be strong and immovable. Always work enthusiastically for the Lord, for you know that nothing you do for the Lord is ever useless. *NLT

Again, this has nothing to do with purgatory. Unless of course you can show me how it does. I also propose you get a new translation. One that it more accurate. If you want I can give you more translations that back my NLT translation that I use. Just ask I will be happy to.

So to sum up. The verse said. We will not all die - some will be alive when Christ returns. Those who belong to Christ will all be transformed. This will be done in an instant. This will be the last trumpet - the last event. We will live forever as our new bodies will never perish. No purgatory here considering this is done in an instant and we will all be transformed.

By the way you still haven’t answered my question on 1 John 1:9 considering I’ve given you several days. Why are so harsh on me when you don’t even answer the things I give you?*
 
ibkc said:
What Bible verse says this explicitly? Not indirectly. Not by inference. Directly and explicitly, as in “Those saved WILL go DIRECTLY to heaven without even having to take a shower beforehand!”

You will not be able to produce such a verse, because the Bible does not reveal the exact mechnanisms and steps that the dead will undergo on their way to heaven.
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Check this verse out which dosdog has so graciously given me.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! 52 It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed.

Therefore those who are alive when Christ comes again will all be transformed instantly. No time for purgatory.
 
ibkc said:
Nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven, Rev. 21:27. That leaves out those of you who think that your sins are covered, like snow on a dung heap.
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Your missing the point. We are made fully righteous be Christ (1 John 1:9) That is why He died for us. We’re not made righteous through purgatory.
 
ibkc said:
From 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
Here we have an explicit Biblical reference of the dead waiting in a place that is neither Heaven nor Hell.
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You are rightish in saying that there is just more than Heaven and Hell. There is also Sheol (also known as Hades or Death) This is the place where the dead go before Christ raises them up to be with Him.

However lets get a description of this place.

Luke 16:19-31
Jesus said, “There was a certain rich man who was splendidly clothed in purple and fine linen and who lived each day in luxury. 20 At his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus who was covered with sores. 21 As Lazarus lay there longing for scraps from the rich man’s table, the dogs would come and lick his open sores.
22 “Finally, the poor man died and was carried by the angels to be with Abraham.[a] The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and his soul went to the place of the dead.** There, in torment, he saw Abraham in the far distance with Lazarus at his side.

24 “The rich man shouted, ‘Father Abraham, have some pity! Send Lazarus over here to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. I am in anguish in these flames.’

25 “But Abraham said to him, ‘Son, remember that during your lifetime you had everything you wanted, and Lazarus had nothing. So now he is here being comforted, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides, there is a great chasm separating us. No one can cross over to you from here, and no one can cross over to us from there.’

27 “Then the rich man said, ‘Please, Father Abraham, at least send him to my father’s home. 28 For I have five brothers, and I want him to warn them so they don’t end up in this place of torment.’

29 “But Abraham said, ‘Moses and the prophets have warned them. Your brothers can read what they wrote.’

30 “The rich man replied, ‘No, Father Abraham! But if someone is sent to them from the dead, then they will repent of their sins and turn to God.’

31 “But Abraham said, ‘If they won’t listen to Moses and the prophets, they won’t listen even if someone rises from the dead.’”

So we see here that the man who trusted in Christ was taken over to the Heavenly side. The one who had not repented was taken over to the Hell side. It is said that he is there to be tormented, not to have his sins purged. This was also done before Christ’s second coming because the rich man wanted his brothers to here the truth. There is never any indication that this man will get out of this place. And he knows that if his brothers repent then they will not have to go there. So again. No purgatory here.

Your verses in 1 Peter 3 say that Christ in the Spirit preached to those in the days of Noah. That was probably done through Noah. They are now in prison. Which will be the same place as the rich man. Which is the Hell side because they never repented.

David also says in Psalm 16:10
For you will not leave my soul among the dead (Sheol)
or allow your holy one to rot in the grave.
This shows that he will go to Sheol. However he will go to the side with Abraham where there is no fire.

So yes this is a waiting place outside of Heaven and Hell. But it’s made up of two sides. A Heaven like side and a Hell like side. But it is not Purgatory.**
 
ibkc said:
Also, CA states:
Christ refers to the sinner who “will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? “He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering (“fire”) there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.
​
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I have already talked about these verses in other posts. Why do you never read them and bring up points you have with them. Instead you always just quote them again and again and I am expected to answer again and again?

All Jesus is saying in Matt 12:32 is that when you get to the next age the sin will still be with you. It will not have been forgiven. Not that it can’t even be purged out. Anyway you miss the point of forgiveness. Forgiveness is letting someone of the hook for something they have done wrong. How are you forgiving them if you have to make them suffer for all that they have done?
So sins being forgiven in the next age will have nothing to do with people suffering in fire for them for a time until they have paid for them. They will just be forgiven. If they are not forgiven then they are eternally damned.

I have answered 1 Corinthians 3:15 so many times yet it seems to fall on death ears. Nobody has every asked me about what I have said regarding. They just keep posting it.

This verse is not saying that those people whose work is not good are saved through fire. It is saying they will be saved but only just. The word as is meaning “like” not “as a means of”. So it is saying they will saved but like someone going through fire. If you are in a house burning down. And you make it out alive, you have only just made it out. You have come very close to death.
Some translations that translate meaning for meaning rather than just word for word show this point very well. For example the New Living Translation says:

But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.

The Amplified Bible explains the translation of words so that they don’t get lost in translation and the meaning is changed. So if you’re not sure on a particular word use the Amplified Bible and it will show how words are or can be translated. This is what it says

But if any person’s work is burned up [under the test], he will suffer the loss [of it all, losing his reward], though he himself will be saved, but only as [one who has passed] through fire.

So it’s not an accurate translation to say this means we will have to be saved by means of fire if our work is not good enough. It saying that if this is the case then we will only just be saved, as someone would be if they had passed through fire.

So this verse is not referring to purgatory. Please if there is some mistake I have made here or legitimate disagreement then please show me. Do not just quote this verse again. I am getting tired of it.​
 
Benu2007 said:
Dude what’s your problem. You’re in this for a fight not to help anyone. As a Christian you should be showing love - especially to fellow Christinans.
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At the moment You are the Heretic who wants to be my Problem

Luke 22 36 But they said: Nothing. Then said he unto them: But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a scrip; and he that hath not, let him sell his coat, and buy a sword.

English Latin
15 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall all indeed rise again: but we shall not all be changed.

ecce mysterium vobis dico omnes quidem resurgemus sed non omnes inmutabimur
 
ibkc said:
[/INDENT]Don’t come back and tell me that the exact word “Purgatory” isn’t mentioned so that makes the concept invalid. The word “Trinity” isn’t in the Bible either. In fact, the Bible simply is not the only repository of faith. You are missing half of the pieces of the puzzle if you refer only to the Bible and disregard the early Fathers and basic history.
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The word Trinity isn’t in the Bible but the Trinity is clearly shown when Jesus tells us to baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It also says our God is one God. So this is what we call the God - three persons in one. Christians were hardly ever called Christians in the Bible either. It was just the name given to them later on. But Christians were in the Bible and the concept of the Trinity is in the Bible. Their names are not. The concept of purgatory is not in the Bible. It’s not anywhere. You still haven’t even a verse that shows it.

The major problem I have is this. The concept that Christ cleanses us from all unrighteousness is in the Bible (for example 1 John 1:9). Purgatory goes against this concept. So not only is the concpet of purgatory not found in the Bible. There are also concepts that go against it. Since the Bible is the word of God. Anyone who says anything contrary to it is wrong. Regardless of who they are.
 
dosdog said:
At the moment You are the Heretic who wants to be my Problem

Luke 22 36 But they said: Nothing. Then said he unto them: But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a scrip; and he that hath not, let him sell his coat, and buy a sword.

English Latin
15 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall all indeed rise again: but we shall not all be changed.

ecce mysterium vobis dico omnes quidem resurgemus sed non omnes inmutabimur
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Why are you quoting from the Vulgate. That was not the original language neither is it the best translation. I’ve shown you many translations that say what the verse is actually saying. And that is we are all changed. Use the original. Not a translation which is not to be not the most accurate.

I don’t really see why you gave me Luke 22:36.
 
Benu2007 said:
Why are you quoting from the Vulgate. That was not the original language neither is it the best translation. I’ve shown you many translations that say what the verse is actually saying. And that is we are all changed. Use the original. Not a translation which is not to be not the most accurate.

I don’t really see why you gave me Luke 22:36.
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Matthew 18 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

And what scumbag told you that St Jerome’s Translation does not count?
 
Benu2007 said:
Why are you quoting from the Vulgate. .
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Not only is 1r an Andreas manuscript rather than purely Byzantine, but it is written in such a way that Erasmus could not always tell text from commentary and based his reading on the Vulgate. Also, 1r is defective for the last six verses of the Apocalypse. To fill out the text, Erasmus made his own Greek translation from the Latin. He admitted to what he had done, but the result was a Greek text containing readings not found in any Greek manuscript – but which were faithfully retained through centuries of editions of the Textus Receptus. This included even certain readings which were not even correct Greek (Scrivener offers as an example Rev. 17:4 AKAQARTHTOS).

The lack of Hebrew scholarship at the time contributed to an even greater problem with the Old Testament: The translators didn’t know what it meant. Textual damage caused some of the cruxes; others arose from ignorance of classical Hebrew. The translators often had to turn to the translations in LXX or the Vulgate

The same is true, to a lesser extent, of the New Testament. Greek never entirely vanished from the knowledge of scholars, as Hebrew did, but the language evolved. At the time the KJV was translated, classical Greek – the Greek of Homer and the tragic playwrights – was considered the standard. Koine Greek – the Greek of the New Testament – was forgotten;
skypoint.com/~waltzmn/TR.html
 
  • If you have a KJV - you are reading a basterdized version of the Vulgate
 
Case - Closed

Originally Posted by dosdog
Benu2007 Do You still want to play my bible verse can beat up your bible verse - or did I just tear the wings off of another gnat?

DD

Benu2007 I asked you a question - Are you and your heritic buddies to scared to come out and play?

1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall all indeed rise again: but we shall not all be changed. 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

If you wish to continue I will make sure you can lick your tonsils {I.e, stick your head so far up you will see daylight)

DD
 
dosdog said:
Matthew 18 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

And what scumbag told you that St Jerome’s Translation does not count?
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Many scholars don’t see the vulgate as the most accurate translation.

Think about it. The translations I gave you come from the original Greek and Hebrew. They say something different to what the one from the vulgate. And think about it. Why would you translate from the Vulgate either. It’s hard enough to translate accurately from language to another. So why would you do it twice? I.e. instead of going from the Greek to English, you go from the Greek to the Latin to the English. That’s going to lose even more into translation.

I ask you this. Do you believe translating from the Latin is better than translating from the original Greek?

And do actually believe that the seven translations I gave you, and I can give you about another seven more if you want, are all wrong and that your one translation is right.

To point out even more some of the wierd translations you’re versions give I will show you the verse you gave me the other day.

Ephesians 4:11
Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers.

I didn’t point this out because I was running out of characters but your translation had translated evangelists as doctors. Doctors! I’m sorry but that is a bad translation.

Considering the bible suggests that we pray for the sick
James 5:14-16
Are any of you sick? You should call for the elders of the church to come and pray over you, anointing you with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 Such a prayer offered in faith will heal the sick, and the Lord will make you well. And if you have committed any sins, you will be forgiven.
16 Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and produces wonderful results.

Therefore why on Earth would doctors be a real gift to the Church. To the world yes - but compared to the power of God they shouldn’t be of any importance to the Church.

I suggest you get a new translation. And get one that’s in modern English. There is no reason to be quoting verses in a language spoken 500 years ago.

And on a final note.
Matthew 7:15
Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves.

Don’t listen to everyone, even if they are known to be some great leader in the Church, but test what they say. Some people are more interested in their own desires rather than the Church’s (Pope Alexander VI comes to mind). You might claim you’re leadership back to Peter but look at many other leaders you also lay claim to, they were not Godly men, they were interested in money. Even today the leadership seems to be more about peace and getting along (I have no doubt that those things aren’t bad). Such a big issue is made out of these that they overshadow the whole message of the cross. Only the cross can save.
 
dosdog said:
If you have a KJV - you are reading a basterdized version of the Vulgate
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I am using the New Living Translation. Why would I read something in old English. Besides to prove my point I have given many different translations and they all say more or less the same thing yet are all done by different people. So are going to more accurate than your one translation.
 
dosdog said:
Case - Closed

Originally Posted by dosdog
Benu2007 Do You still want to play my bible verse can beat up your bible verse - or did I just tear the wings off of another gnat?

DD

Benu2007 I asked you a question - Are you and your heritic buddies to scared to come out and play?

1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall all indeed rise again: but we shall not all be changed. 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

If you wish to continue I will make sure you can lick your tonsils {I.e, stick your head so far up you will see daylight)

DD
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It’s not my Bible vs your Bible. It’s 10+ Bibles vs your Bible.

Why are you right?
 
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