What are you protesting?

[Benu2007]

1 John 1:9
But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness.

I asked some time back and did not receive an answer. When was the last time you went to confession?

Why do I need to go to a priest when I can just come before God?

 

[Benu2007]

You’ve just demonstrated once again that the Church is correct and you are wrong. What’s wrong with you?

CDL

I don’t really understand what you’re getting at here.

I said we are made righteous through Christ.
You said prove it.
I quoted three scriptures that did.
You said this proves that the Catholic church is right.

How is that? If it’s so obvious why don’t you just say?

 

[ibkc]

I’m not saying I don’t sin. I’m saying that sins power has no effect over me, that is it won’t take me to Hell.

Forgive me, but this strikes me as quite arrogant, and also quite dangerous. Chances are, you’re a devout person and you don’t live a life of sin. But claiming sin has no power over you at all? Claiming there’s no chance you’ll go to Hell? Do you really want to presume to know the mind of God, based on some Bible verses that aren’t even agreed upon by large numbers of Christians?

Because of the blood of Christ.

Have you received His blood and body as he commanded us to do?

But 1 John 1:9 is at odds with Pugatory because if Christ has cleansed us from all unrighteousness then what is there left to be purged?

1 John 1:9 does not say how Christ has or will cleanse us, and moreover, it adds a caveat. A major caveat, which you ignore.

 

[Benu2007]

So what the heck are you talking about? You deny the plain meaning and then you give some vague blather that doesn’t mean anything about what you insist it means. The Scripture says we pass through fire for the cleansing of some sins. Your next sentence says this is not true. Then you conclude by writing “there you see, I’ve proven that the Scriptures do not say what they just said.” I’m still praying for your conversion to Christianity.

CDL

The scripture does not say that we are cleansed by fire. And the meaning of the translation is to be saved like you have just passed through fire. That implies only just. It is saying that the worker will only just be saved. There is nothing at all wrong with this.

 

[Benu2007]

Forgive me, but this strikes me as quite arrogant, and also quite dangerous. Chances are, you’re a devout person and you don’t live a life of sin. But claiming sin has no power over you at all? Claiming there’s no chance you’ll go to Hell? Do you really want to presume to know the mind of God, based on some Bible verses that aren’t even agreed upon by large numbers of Christians?

Have you received His blood and body as he commanded us to do?

1 John 1:9 does not say how Christ has or will cleanse us, and moreover, it adds a caveat. A major caveat, which you ignore.

I always mean this kind of stuff generally speaking. I realise that my life has to right with Christ. Assuming that it will always be (I don’t plan to make it otherwise) then sins power is proken.

Also the bible makes it very clear that it is by Christs sacrifice, his blood that we are made holy

Isiah 53:10-12*
But it was the Lord’s good plan to crush him
and cause him grief.
Yet when his life is made an offering for sin,
he will have many descendants.
He will enjoy a long life,
and the Lord’s good plan will prosper in his hands.
11 When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish,
he will be satisfied.
And because of his experience,
my righteous servant will make it possible
for many to be counted righteous,
for he will bear all their sins.
12 I will give him the honors of a victorious soldier,
because he exposed himself to death.
He was counted among the rebels.
He bore the sins of many and interceded for rebels.*

or Hebrews 10:22
let us go right into the presence of God with sincere hearts fully trusting him. For our guilty consciences have been sprinkled with Christ’s blood to make us clean, and our bodies have been washed with pure water.

So here is more proof that it is Christs sacrifice that atones for our sins. Also look at 1 John 2:2 or Hebrews 10:10. But I have already quoted them a lot.

These verses are only debated by Christians because they have other ideas that influence they outside the Bible. If you hold on to nothing else but the bible then you are able to interpret them at face value. Otherwise you need to go into some weird interpretation.

 

[Benu2007]

Because I think your interpretations are just flat-out wrong, that is why. I read your answers, but I don’t accept them. They’re stretches of the imagination, they’re not how they were interpreted for many centuries, and no matter how many creative Protestant interpretations of them that I see, the original intent is the most valid way for me to read them. Nothing personal, Benu, really. I’m not going to call you names, and I will say that you seem like a very nice person who is debating us in good faith. But I do get frustrated, because you ask for the Catholic scriptural justifications of certain doctrines, you’re given them, and the you toss back out the fundie re-interpretation and think you’ve “won.” It’s just not that simple. Like I said many posts back, we are talking past each other at this point. I’m apparently not going to make you consider something different, and you’re definitely not going to make me think like a fundie. I am a recent convert who discovered that the Catholic way of interpreting the Bible is very near to perfect and seamless, after years of rolling my eyes at all the fundies surrounding me. No gaps, no contradictions. I am home.

I accept the fact that we are never going to agree. But may I ask you someting. What kind of Bible translation are you using? Please don’t look at this as me trying to convert you to some protestant bible. It’s just I use to have this big thing with using the New King James Version. I liked it because it was accurate and it wasn’t in old English like the King James Bible. However I still had a lot of trouble following passages and as a result books like Romans meant little to me because I just couldn’t follow it. This because the way it is written uses words I would not normally use or the word order is not in a way that I would be use to. I can follow it but it’s not light reading.
However I found a website a bit over a year ago which gives many different translations. That is how I have been able to offer so many translations in some of my posts.
I found the New Living Translation. When I was reading it I was amazed at how much easier it was to understand. Books like Roamans became one of my favourites and I got far more out of everything just because I could understand it. This is because the NLT has had careful attention to being translated accurately into modern day English that is simple and easy to understand. I am not saying that you need to go out and get the NLT. There are many translations like it - Catholic ones too. I’m just saying that the NLT is accurate when compared to other translations and does really well to bring out the point to the reader.

If there are any passages that you are finding hard to follow then you can go to www.biblegateway.com There you can look up any passage in many different translations. Or you could just post it and I will do nothing more than give you the NLT translation.

My whole reason for saying this is not to get you to read my bible. But just to get you to think about reading a bible that is written in easy to read but accurate English. That way it is much easier to follow passages. So many people read versions like the King James Version and it just makes so sense to do that since we don’t speak in old English.

Please don’t get the idea that I am trying to convert you to anything. I’m just giving you some advice which greatly helped me.

 

[ibkc]

Benu, it is without question that Christ’s sacrifice atoned for our sins for all time. We agree on that. Where we disagree is in the notions of how this grace is given to us, and on the idea of whether or not we can fall back into sin and perhaps lose our salvation.

I appreciate the suggestion to try different translations of the Bible. I agree that limiting oneself to one translation can be problematic. I actually do use Bible Gateway myself; it’s a great resource. My home Bibles that I use the most are the NIV and the NAB (which is the Bible used in the American Catholic liturgy.) We’ve also got a couple of Protestant Bibles lying around that I look at less often.

If I may make a similar suggestion to you, it would be to study closely the writings of the early Christians, such as the Didache, the Shepherd of Hermas, 1 Clement, Irenaus, Polycarp, Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, etc.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Why do I need to go to a priest when I can just come before God?

Ask God, if you get to see HIm. That is how He set it up.

CDL

 

[GregoryPalamas]

I don’t really understand what you’re getting at here.

I said we are made righteous through Christ.
You said prove it.
I quoted three scriptures that did.
You said this proves that the Catholic church is right.

How is that? If it’s so obvious why don’t you just say?

You know as well as I that what you have written here is not the situation at all. I’m praying that you will surrender your life to Christ and follow His path. Leave off your gnostic like false doctrines and come home to Christ.

CDL

 

[Ronald_E]

Why do I need to go to a priest when I can just come before God?

Jesus created the sacrament of confession because He knew that we are afraid to expose our shame face to face with another person especially one who has devoted his life to God. Jesus knows we are weak and need humility. Confession is the ultimate act of humility. Confession is a very fearful process if we have shame in us.

 

[ibkc]

Jesus created the sacrament of confession because He knew that we are afraid to expose our shame face to face with another person especially one who has devoted his life to God. Jesus knows we are weak and need humility. Confession is the ultimate act of humility. Confession is a very fearful process if we have shame in us.

That is very well put. If you cannot get up the courage to confess your sins to another man, how do you expect you will do in front of God?

 

[Publisher]

That is very well put. If you cannot get up the courage to confess your sins to another man, how do you expect you will do in front of God?

Because I know the frailty of humanity all too well…I know I can approach the throne of Grace with confidence…and the One who knows me best, loves me most…and there is no fear in love.

 

[ibkc]

Because I know the frailty of humanity all too well…I know I can approach the throne of Grace with confidence…and the One who knows me best, loves me most…and there is no fear in love.

That’s romantic, but not really accurate.

fear http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png –noun
1.a distressing emotion aroused by impending danger, evil, pain, etc., whether the threat is real or imagined; the feeling or condition of being afraid.
2.a specific instance of or propensity for such a feeling: an abnormal fear of heights.
3.concern or anxiety; solicitude: a fear for someone’s safety.
4.reverential awe, esp. toward God.

 

[Ronald_E]

Because I know the frailty of humanity all too well…I know I can approach the throne of Grace with confidence…and the One who knows me best, loves me most…and there is no fear in love.

I am curious. Do you feel the shame of your sins when you confess them to God? If you feel that shame, do cry when confessing your sins? When you feel the forgiveness of your sins do you cry with joy?

 

[Publisher]

I am curious. Do you feel the shame of your sins when you confess them to God? If you feel that shame, do cry when confessing your sins? When you feel the forgiveness of your sins do you cry with joy?

Yes to both.

 

[Publisher]

That’s romantic, but not really accurate.

fear http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png –noun
1.a distressing emotion aroused by impending danger, evil, pain, etc., whether the threat is real or imagined; the feeling or condition of being afraid.
2.a specific instance of or propensity for such a feeling: an abnormal fear of heights.
3.concern or anxiety; solicitude: a fear for someone’s safety.
4.reverential awe, esp. toward God.

Not accurate for whom? You or me?

“Fear” as a distressing emotion aroused by impending danger…“perfect love casts out fear”…

Reverential awe would be a better phrase…not the same at all…“perfect love casts out reverential awe???” Doesn’t really make a lot of sense does it?

 

[ibkc]

Not accurate for whom? You or me?

“Fear” as a distressing emotion aroused by impending danger…“perfect love casts out fear”…

Reverential awe would be a better phrase…not the same at all…“perfect love casts out reverential awe???” Doesn’t really make a lot of sense does it?

It doesn’t. However, that is not the way you used the word “fear” that inspired my response. You said, “and there is no fear in love.” Quite a simplistic way to think of it, IMO. Love is a complex thing. And fear is as well. Fear is healthy. Fear can save lives - and souls.

We are commanded to confess our sins. The early Christians used to go so far as to confess them in public. Confession, when done regularly and in good faith, keeps us accountable. But, confession is difficult. You have to face up to your worst side. It can be very painful. That is its asset, though. This life is not easy. Forcing yourself to be brutally honest with yourself builds strength and character.

Saying you’ll confess to God himself when the time almost comes across as daring Him to send you to Hell. I cannot bring myself to be so certain about what His plans are, and I prefer to swallow my pride and just confess.

Yes, I do have some fear of God. I think it’s a healthy way to approach Him.

 

[Publisher]

It doesn’t. However, that is not the way you used the word “fear” that inspired my response. You said, “and there is no fear in love.” Quite a simplistic way to think of it, IMO. Love is a complex thing. And fear is as well. Fear is healthy. Fear can save lives - and souls.

We are commanded to confess our sins. The early Christians used to go so far as to confess them in public. Confession, when done regularly and in good faith, keeps us accountable. But, confession is difficult. You have to face up to your worst side. It can be very painful. That is its asset, though. This life is not easy. Forcing yourself to be brutally honest with yourself builds strength and character.

Saying you’ll confess to God himself when the time almost comes across as daring Him to send you to Hell. I cannot bring myself to be so certain about what His plans are, and I prefer to swallow my pride and just confess.

Yes, I do have some fear of God. I think it’s a healthy way to approach Him.

“That is the way you used it…” you wrote…LOL, that’s news to me…I didn’t realize I had used it that way…thank you for clarifying what it is I meant, I will have to be more careful in the future

There is a sorrow for sin that leads to repentance. However through the promises of God in Christ, I know with confidence that I can approach the throne of Grace in perfect trust that He is faithful and just to forgive us (my) sins. There is a reverential awe at the majesty and power of the Eternal…but it is in and through Jesus of Nazareth, who is the express image of the Father, that I can approach God…not in fear(trepidation) but in faith that God’s character is that of Jesus. My favorite scripture is the story of the Prodigal Son. When the son had come to himself and understood what it is he had done, he chose to go home and ask his father’s forgiveness…and the father saw him while he was a long way off and ran to him and embraced him before he could even get his “confession” out…that is how God is…a Father who waits for us to return to Him and rejoices with us on our return…forgiveness is a wonderful thing…to be reconciled to the Father.

Confession is good for the soul…how Friends approach confession is probably not too dissimilar than you but we do not necessarily compartmentalize it into individual “sacraments”…life is sacramental and we as Friends do not necessarily see individual events as sacramental…but life as a whole contains events that take on sacramental meaning…we are accountable to one another…we share our burdens and our difficulties with one another. When a particular trial besets our lives, or we are concerned of what direction to take,or if a wrong decision has been made, we can call a “Clearness Meeting” of those we trust to meet with us and enter into a time of prayer and worship to seek “clearness” on a particular matter. Together as the Body of Christ we seek reconcilliation with God and one another.

I do not “dare God to send me to hell” by my confessing to God…I come to Him as a wounded child and seek His healing to my troubled soul…the idea of “God to send me to hell” is quite foreign to me…“what Father would give his son a stone when he asked for bread or a snake when he asked for fish?”

Through Christ I can approach my Father…“and cry Abba(daddy)”…I know Whom it is that loves me beyond measure…and that love He bestows upon us in Christ causes me to "bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen. "

Yeah…I am confident in the One who loves me…if I want to know what God is like, I look to Jesus…and then my soul finds rest.

 

[ibkc]

I do not “dare God to send me to hell” by my confessing to God…I come to Him as a wounded child and seek His healing to my troubled soul…the idea of “God to send me to hell” is quite foreign to me…

Apparently and amazingly, He does send people to Hell. It’s in the Bible. Seriously, dude, it is. Check it out sometime.

The Friends conception of Christianity is beautiful but for me, a bit too simplistic. I’m glad it works for you, though, certainly.

 

[Publisher]

Apparently and amazingly, He does send people to Hell. It’s in the Bible. Seriously, dude, it is. Check it out sometime.

The Friends conception of Christianity is beautiful but for me, a bit too simplistic. I’m glad it works for you, though, certainly.

I didn’t realize we were discussing other people…I was discussing myself…and responding to the post that intimated my idea of coming before God to confess was like “daring God” to send me to hell…I hope I dispelled that idea…

I will leave others in God’s hands…I have enough on my own platter to seek to be other’s judge and jury.

And yes…it is “simplistic”…for that I am grateful to the Father, for I am a simple man.