What are your thoughts about expensive and/or ostentatious vestments?

[AnneElizabeth]

What are your thoughts about expensive and/or ostentatious vestments? For years I really appreciated seeing ornate vestments now and then (which was fairly rare.) Vestments made of fancy silk damask, impressive galloons, that sort of thing. I never did like “designer vestments”, or expensive vestments that were designed in a feeble attempt to look simple/humble.

I also never cared for vestments that had abstract objects embroidered/printed on them – like stalks of wheat or what appears to be a glasses of wine.

I never really understood some priests’ desires to wear very plain and simple (and not artificially humble) vestments. I now understand their desire with the coming of Pope Francis I. What are your thoughts?

Give God your best.

Goes back to Cain and Abel’s sacrifice. One gave God from his surplus, the other gave to God his best. Only one of those was acceptable to God. Make sure all we do in the church mirrors that.

 

[R_H_Benson]

I love the fiddlebacks with just the right amount of lace underneath. Seeing a priest clad in a beautiful fiddleback (the back usually depicting an intricate image of the Crucifixion) incensing the high altar during the Kyrie, raises my soul up to God and makes me keenly aware of the dignity of the priestly office as he offers up the Holy Sacrifice in persona Christi.

 

[captainrick]

http://www.askaboutchurch.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/321px-Pianeta-borboni-oronero-1.jpg

http://www.messianic-torah-truth-seeker.org/Torah/Kohen/kohen-garments.jpg

Notice anything similar?

The Kohenim must have had some massive dry cleaning bills!

 

[babochka]

I think that vestments should ideally be made of the finest materials available, with excellent workmanship. They should be beautiful, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. My tastes tend toward simple, but I have no problem with the fancier varieties. I have not really seen vestements that I would consider ostentatious. I think that they are generally made for the glory of God, and that works for me.

 

[Draper]

This thread is making me giggle. You do realize that vestments today are generally purchased by a seminarian’s family and friends, and they have little say in the matter. There’s not one priest in my Archdiocese that wears fiddleback vestments.

In my experience most chasubles are bought by parishes. I know one priest that must own 50 chasubles, but he’s far from the norm.

Most are very fine fabrics, and very well sewn, with little ornamentation. They are beautiful. Many church supply houses and convents who specialize in these things don’t even offer the gaudy stuff anymore. The quality of the outstanding fabrics and the elegance of a simple design can’t be beat. They are fitting for the men standing “in persona Christi.”

There are all sorts of vestments available. Fancy, plain, gaudy, etc.

To assume that the fancier the better, is like saying homely people don’t go to heaven. Silliness. The objects and fabrics used for the Holy sacrifice of the Mass should be of superior quality. Beyond that…things are a matter of personal taste.

I largely agree except there’s no real way to define “superior quality” in this context.

 

[Draper]

Give God your best.

Goes back to Cain and Abel’s sacrifice. One gave God from his surplus, the other gave to God his best. Only one of those was acceptable to God. Make sure all we do in the church mirrors that.

What does “best” mean in this context? An extremely well designed and made chasuble out of 100% polyester that drapes, beautifully, wears like iron and can be laundered at home or a chasuble made of extremely expensive bemberg damask silk that’s typically wrinkled (unless it’s freshly dry cleaned and pressed) until it wears out long before the polyester model?

 

[Draper]

I think that vestments should ideally be made of the finest materials available, with excellent workmanship. They should be beautiful, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. My tastes tend toward simple, but I have no problem with the fancier varieties. I have not really seen vestements that I would consider ostentatious. I think that they are generally made for the glory of God, and that works for me.

Go attend a Russian Orthodox liturgy. The vestments get so ostentatious, they take away from the liturgy.

 

[pianistclare]

In my experience most chasubles are bought by parishes. I know one priest that must own 50 chasubles, but he’s far from the norm.

There are all sorts of vestments available. Fancy, plain, gaudy, etc.

I largely agree except there’s no real way to define “superior quality” in this context.

Parishes don’t buy them here.
People either donate them, or they were ordination gifts from family.
Superior quality refers to quality of fabrics, perfection of the ornamentation if any, and sewn in a way that they drape well, move well, and hold up over the years.

Ours are all fairly simple. I don’t give a lot of thought to what Father wears. The Mass is more important to me than whether the vestments are to my liking.

 

[Draper]

Parishes don’t buy them here.
People either donate them, or they were ordination gifts from family.
Superior quality refers to quality of fabrics, perfection of the ornamentation if any, and sewn in a way that they drape well, move well, and hold up over the years.

Ours are all fairly simple. I don’t give a lot of thought to what Father wears. The Mass is more important to me than whether the vestments are to my liking.

They buy them here.

“…perfection of the ornamentation…” is purely subjective. I’m not sure what “quality” of the fabric even means.

 

[babochka]

They buy them here.

“…perfection of the ornamentation…” is purely subjective. I’m not sure what “quality” of the fabric even means.

Pefection of the ornamentation means that any embroidery or other ornamentation was done with skill. The stitches are even and neat, the pattern is complex and not simplistic.

The most important measure of the quality of fabric is the density of the thread count. High quality fabrics are also made from high quality threads. High quality threads come from high quality fiber, which must be procured in a manner which preserves its quality. A low quality fabric wrinkles more easily, is more prone to snagging, and the fabric will ravel easily. A low quality fabric does not flow as well and therefore does not fit as well. In addition, it will wear out much more quickly.

 

[Sy_Noe]

My thoughts are instead of spending money on expensive vestments, to wear simple, plainer clothing and give the savings to the poor. That would glorify God. I’m not overly concerned with what was worn in the early church or OT.

 

[GoGoDiego]

For me, it is better. This shows how the the Priest acts in the person of Christ in the outside and it adds to the beauty and grandeur of the sacred Liturgy.

 

[UpUpAndAway]

This thread calls to mind an exchange I had with a visiting priest just before a Mass. Part of my duties is the laying out of vestments for each Mass. Our vestments came to us via various means: some were purchased by the parish, others were donated, and others still were sewn by the parishioners. I chose a chasuble and stole set and asked Father if it was to his liking. He responded with a smile, “Of course. I like everything.”

Me too, I like everything. As long as the vestment is clean and undamaged, it’s beautiful to me. I don’t subscribe to the idea that simple vestments are somehow in and of themselves unworthy of the Lord nor to the idea that ornate vestments (“ostentatious” is subjective) are excessive and unnecessary. Dry-clean-only vestments are not superior to those which are machine washable; the reverse is also true.

My pastor has unadorned bell-shaped albs that are all custom made from smooth, heavy, bias-cut linen. My spiritual director has light cotton albs trimmed with large panels of intricate lace from the waist down. Both look fantastic during the Mass, so I can’t imagine God is displeased with either.

If what the priest wears during Mass distracts me from the Eucharist for whatever reason, I see that as a problem in me and not one outside of me.

We can glorify God with quality and still take care of the poor. It’s not an either-or situation.

 

[Draper]

My thoughts are instead of spending money on expensive vestments, to wear simple, plainer clothing and give the savings to the poor. That would glorify God. I’m not overly concerned with what was worn in the early church or OT.

Sorry but no sale. The simple fact is that a dollar saved when purchasing vestments does not equate to a dollar given to the poor. Your comment is often used to attack that which the attacker does not like.

 

[Draper]

…Me too, I like everything. As long as the vestment is clean and undamaged, it’s beautiful to me. I don’t subscribe to the idea that simple vestments are somehow in and of themselves unworthy of the Lord nor to the idea that ornate vestments (“ostentatious” is subjective) are excessive and unnecessary. Dry-clean-only vestments are not superior to those which are machine washable; the reverse is also true…

Ostentatious is hardly subjective. Machine washable is a virtue, an advantage.

 

[UpUpAndAway]

Ostentatious is hardly subjective. Machine washable is a virtue, an advantage.

Someone has to decide what is “ostentatious.” That which is “ostentatious” to you may not be to me. Nothing I can think of is objectively “ostentatious.” Perhaps you could provide an example…?

I see the fact that something may be washed in a machine as neither virtue nor vice. It simply “is.” Could you explain your reasoning further?

My bottom line is that there is no indisputable right or wrong here. Simple or ornate doesn’t define a vestment as beautiful. If it’s well-made, clean and undamaged, it’s worthy of the Lord.

 

[graciew]

Ostentatious is hardly subjective. Machine washable is a virtue, an advantage.

I do not understand your issue with machine washable.
For years I washed many of the clothes by hand.I did not always have a washing machine everywhere.
I still do wash some by hand,and then hang them and then iron them.
So if you options are machine wash or dry cleaners, remember washing by hand ( hope you say it like this…hand wash?)

So you also mean practical? Practical may not necessarily mean austere nor a virtue. You would not go to work wearing Nike nylon shorts to an office,would you?

I am for simple,btw.

 

[Corki]

Ostentatious is hardly subjective.

By definition, ostentatious is subjective. For something to be ostentatious, it must be intended primarily to impress others. The synonym for ostentatious is not ‘ornate’; it’s vainglorious. Who are we to judge the intent of a parish or of a priest when choosing vestments? Would it not be just as valid to judge overly plain vestments as signs of false humility?

 

[OraLabora]

Someone has to decide what is “ostentatious.” That which is “ostentatious” to you may not be to me. Nothing I can think of is objectively “ostentatious.”

Ostentatious is like pornography: you’ll know it when you see it

That’s about as “objective” as it gets

i179.photobucket.com/albums/w312/OraLabora/Italy%202009/DSCN0508.jpg

Interestingly, this is a Benedictine monastery that causes some scandal in the Benedictine world because, well, “ostentatious” is not usually in the Benedictine vocabulary. It was, BTW, an Ordinary Form Mass celebrated ad orientem, in Latin, and in Gregorian chant. To be frank the church and vestments are not to my tastes.

The abbey is Monte Cassino, in Italy. The church had been destroyed by Allied bombing in WWII thinking the Germans were encamped there (they were gone). The Allies paid to rebuild the church. There’s a legend that the officer in charge of the project was a Freemason and he chose to make the new church ostentatious in order to sow dissent in the Benedictine world and the Church. I suspect the story is apocryphal, but whatever the truth, the result is there for all to see

 

[R_H_Benson]

Many saintly priests who lived in poverty and constantly practiced asceticism and humility would wear ornate, richly decorated vestments while offering the Holy Sacrifice. We can be assured that their intentions were far from ostentatious. They wore those vestments for the sole purpose of glorifying God. They knew that when they crossed into the sanctuary and went up to the altar of God that they were acting in the person of Christ in all of His priestly and kingly glory. The vestments are not for us. They are foremost for the glory of the Lord. For us, the vestments are a visual testimony to the sublimity of the Sacrifice taking place on the altar. The vestments - along with the other cloths and vessels used in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass should, when possible, be of the finest, most precious materials.