What are your thoughts on communism -negative and positive?

[Rozellelily]

This is a bit debatable though. If it could be trusted that the USA would prosecute war crimes people without pressure, then people like Julian Assange would not be imprisoned for exposing these crimes.
He disagreed and look where he is now…

And I don’t really buy the story that the only reason they imprison these kinds of people is because they could have compromised military operations. Yes, this is true in part, but i believe it’s only half of the story. They imprison also just for the fact that they exposed.

And from what I understand, it took leaking of those horrific Abu Graib (or a name along those lines) photos before any of the “officers” involved were seriously punished even thought they were so twisted to do sexual abuse of the detainees.

You are correct that Taliban supports their crimes, but I am not so convinced that every bad act by soldiers of “free countries” like the USA or Australia would go seriously addressed if not for public exposure/knowledge and outrage.

but China wants those people to come back when called.

But what is wrong with that anyway? USA people think of things on a very individualist basic, but not every culture is this way minded. Other cultures are collective community minded, not individualist, and if your homeland calls you back than many people are happy to go. Because people have loyalty to their ethnicity, just like Americans have loyalty to the USA.

As long as there is no punishment/retribution to peoples families back in China if they don’t go back, then I don’t see anything wrong with this at all.
But if they are punished, then of course this is evil.

If it is so great in China, why woud they do that?

It’s because the economic gains of USA. Even though China has advanced a lot, they still don’t have the healthcare etc standards of the USA. The reality is that living standards in US, Australia,England etc are comparitively very high to other countries, and that is why they want the baby to have US citizenship. It is the same reason why most people immigrate -whether from Eastern Europe, Asia, India, etc…everyone wants higher living standards for their children. This is a norm for parents. But a country being a poor country, and people looking for higher standards of living, is not the same as everyone saying that they feel oppressed and hate their country of origin.

 

[MNathaniel]

I think democracy has it’s negative also such that democracy allows full freedom of press which is good of course. But then on the negative those freedoms can become too broad as we see now with people just criticizing everything, calling the Governments and the Pope all sorts of swear words or even worse derogatory things etc.

I don’t think North Korea can be compared to most countries. It is pure dictatorship.

But even there of all places I see a positive in that North Korean people are still very much traditional views towards genders and have been unaffected by (extreme type) feminism and transgender ideology etc.
I am not suggesting that Kimmie’s government is positive haha, just there is is positives in North Korean people society.

Re-education…that depends on how re-education is defined.
It can be good or bad, depending on the mentality of the “re-educator”.

Personally I think China is too much painted in a negative light by western media.

Other cultures are collective community minded, not individualist, and if your homeland calls you back than many people are happy to go. Because people have loyalty to their ethnicity, just like Americans have loyalty to the USA.

This is a weird, weird thread.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Julian Assange was indicted for invading private computers, one being a government computer.

You believe computer hackers shouldn’t be prosecuted ?

 

[Raxus]

Communism on paper is a pipe dream.

Communism as executed in the real world is little more than government-sanctioned murder and theft. It has no place in a free society.

The worst of capitalism will always be better than the best of communism. The two don’t compare.

 

[Sunbreak]

Nope, I don’t think there are really positives to Communism. Although it purports to offer equal benefits, that has never happened under Communism. It’s like the book “Animal Farm” which is kind of an allegory about Russia and its Communist leadership. As it says in the book, the mantra about all animals being equal eventually gets changed to “All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.”

 

[StudentMI]

Nope, I don’t think there are really positives to Communism. Although it purports to offer equal benefits, that has never happened under Communism. It’s like the book “Animal Farm” which is kind of an allegory about Russia and its Communist leadership. As it says in the book, the mantra about all animals being equal eventually gets changed to “All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.”

Lest it be forgotten, however, George Orwell was a socialist and somewhat sympathetic to Trotsky.

 

[Peeps]

The government still controls the farms and businesses in China.

People don’t get the choose the path toward happiness, and liberty that they should have.

People are still jailed without due process, especially clerical people.

They can close down the nation in an instant if they choose.

It’s still not a free nation.

Unless something has changed, i believe that the true Chinese Catholic Church is completely underground and very secret in China.

We’ve had people in our parish talk about this–they say that you do not ask “where the Catholic Church?” If you do ask, you’ll be directed to a “state-sponsored Catholic church,” which isn’t really Catholic.

Believers know where the “true” Catholic Church is and how to get there, but they are very hesitant to share that info with tourists. So…you just have to find out through “sources”.

I don’t think this sounds like a political system that Catholics can support. It sounds terrifying.

We have long-time friends (around 40 years) who immigrated from China decades ago–their whole family got out. They have NOTHING good to say about communism. Nothing. They do very well for themselves here in the U.S. (daughter graduated from a top college and is now a lawyer).

 

[Annie]

one can dissociate points from underlying philosophies, including economic points.

What does this mean?

 

[Rozellelily]

Tbh, this is a bit unfair @MNathaniel

Maybe it seems weird if looking from an American angle, but not everyone in the world or on CAF is American or sees things through a USA filter and what the US media says.

I don’t really see what is weird about say that China is painted in too much of a negative light by western media. Maybe it sounds controversial to Americans, because now you are at odds with China, but why is is weird?

A lot of foreigner, including American, worked in China and had very happy experiences, until the last year or two when tensions have risen.
China has it’s good parts, and it also has human rights abuses. But countries like the USA and Australia have also had their own human rights abuses.

Even in USA, when your president Trump was first elected, he fostered a good relationship with China, and he and Chinese President were seen looking happy together and discussing shared economic interests. But then it rapidly went downhill and instead became in competition etc.

If I was saying that North Korea is too much painted in a negative light…this would be weird. But China and North Korea are not the same.

It seems that some Americans see China as being same as North Korea and cannot discriminate between the two and that is why it sounds weird to you?

 

[Rozellelily]

Also, maybe it look’s more sensationalist or entertaining that way, but also it not so fair to quote parts on my posts in isolation devoid from the surrounding context to make it seem like I am supporter of some sort of dictator style governments or actions. Of course I am not.

I mentioned that there is a positivity in the North Korean citizens in the sense that they appreciate traditional gender roles, and national culture dances. I very clearly stated that I was not referring to their government in any way. Of course their government is beyond awful and cruel.

The re-education quote that you quoted in isolation- I clearly said in my post that I was referring to re-education is only ok if it is does in a good way, such as when governments with the assistance of Imams “re-educate” would-be terrorists to see their religion in a more peaceful and moderate light.
I clearly mentioned that violent coercive “re-education” is a very very bad thing. And of course that kind of “re-education” isn’t re-education at all but it just human rights abuse, also against Catholic religion and Catholics should speak out against it.

It doesn’t matter whether “violent coercive re-education” is done by Chinese Government or by American Government etc such as when old president George Bush permitted waterboarding torture technique- it doesn’t matter the country, Catholics reaction should be the same.

Are you suggesting that you do not believe the re-education of Islamic extremists by Imams (in non-violent coercive) way is a good thing?
What then would you propose? That governments would just let horror crimes happen? That they should only be imprisoned after the fact of crimes, once public’s lives had been lost (in sometimes very brutal manner)?, and then at the expense of taxpayers? USA actually has the highest incarceration rate in the world- more that Russia, Turkey, China etc.

Prisoner “re-education” happens every day in prisons. I can’t say for the the USA but in many countries prisoners are re-educated on the harmfulness of drugs, responsibility and recidivism prevention etc.
The word is not only associate with bad humans rights acts. Whether you use the word re-educate or rehabilitate it is ultimately all the same.

In short, I hope that users will read fairly and with balance and not just see what want to see…

 

[StudentMI]

1. Again it is perfectly legitimate to make a clear distinction between a false philosophy of the nature, origin and purpose of men and the world, and economic, social, cultural, and political undertakings, even when such undertakings draw their origin and inspiration from that philosophy. True, the philosophic formula does not change once it has been set down in precise terms, but the undertakings clearly cannot avoid being influenced to a certain extent by the changing conditions in which they have to operate. Besides, who can deny the possible existence of good and commendable elements in these undertakings, elements which do indeed conform to the dictates of right reason, and are an expression of man’s lawful aspirations?

Pacem in Terris (April, 11 1963) | John XXIII

I should have said differentiate. Sorry.

 

[Rozellelily]

I can agree with you on this level, but at the same time if all Governments could be trusted to be honest, transparent, and accountable then there would be no “job” for these hackers.

 

[Annie]

differentiate

That makes more sense

 

[MNathaniel]

Maybe it seems weird if looking from an American angle, but not everyone in the world or on CAF is American or sees things through a USA filter and what the US media says.

I’m not American.

 

[Rozellelily]

Sorry, I presumed you were American as this is often a view held by some Americans. From where then please?

It is all still the same though. It is not weird to say that there can be some good parts of “that” Korean culture. People and culture are separate from a countries government. It is like saying that Persian people are often hospitable, kind and have a rich cultural history, but their government itself is clearly very oppressive.

 

[phil19034]

As per the official teachings of the Church, communism is evil. It goes against human nature, robs people of the dignity of work, and is inherently atheist in nature.

 

[MNathaniel]

It is all still the same though. It is not weird to say that there can be some good parts of “that” Korean culture. People and culture are separate from a countries government. It is like saying that Persian people are often hospitable, kind and have a rich cultural history, but their government itself is clearly very oppressive.

I am honestly not into this.

It is obvious and banal that there are good elements to every evil thing.

Even Satan continues to possess goodness, in that he continues to exist, and existence is a participation in goodness.

But I refuse to stick around flattering evil by listing accidental positive things that each given evil failed to totally eradicate around itself.

Communism = human rights abuse. Inherently. Unavoidably.

I’m not staying in a conversation where you are literally listing things you find “positive” about North Korea (specifically in the context of choosing specifically communist societies to find positives about), and you are asking others to do the same.

Not when I’m also surrounded by real people in the real world who actually want real communism to become the new real system imposed on my own real country.

No.

Ciao.