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JulianN
Guest
Unfortunately, I can only click ‘like’ once. This!!
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GodSoughtMe
Guest
There is also the fact that if you are morbidly obese, you probably do not have to worry about your condition being your hidden desire to flaunt your body - most morbidly obese people I know are more ashamed than sinfully proud.
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GodSoughtMe
Guest
Philadelphia?
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Mintaka
Guest
Modesty is a sort of fusion of chastity and prudence. However… this doesn’t mean catering exclusively to worries about other people’s thoughts and bad desires, because prudence would tell you that’s foolish.
Modesty is about dignity, and dignity is about behaving in every situation in a way that reflects who you really are – a person baptized into the life of Christ, or a creation of God. This does not mean dressing the same way in every situation, because frankly that would be undignified.
Prudence is the virtue of making wise choices. You’re allowed to take worldly things into consideration, because a prudent person is both as clever as serpents and as gentle as doves. You’re also allowed to take situations like injury or illness into consideration. But a prudent person is never going to forget that actions and dress have just as much message in them as words do. In fact, actions and dress are usually believed more readily than words.
With all this in mind, it’s not surprising that St. Francis de Sales recommended, in his Introduction to the Devout Life, that a devout layperson dress and act in a way that will just seem normal, not startling. He was writing specifically to a woman of means, and he recommended that she stay reasonably in fashion but not be ridiculously fashion-forward or shocking. She should never look dowdy or try to be super-modest, because that would discredit her example of goodness and holiness. (Obviously the situation was different for priests and religious, who were supposed to be an example of not living in the world; but as an evangelist, he made a point of keeping his plain clerical clothes very clean and neat.) And yes, he thought that moderation in dress made a layperson a more attractive personality, better able to spread the Gospel.
Heh, you gotta love a French saint. (And yes, he was living in a time when celebrities and fashionistas also wore crazy immodest clothing. There was a famous incident when a hostess welcomed an archbishop to her home by putting on a presentation in the backyard involving her daughter and other marriageable young ladies role-playing as totally naked nymphs. And he wasn’t particularly shocked by it, because that’s the kind of thing aristocrats thought was nifty stuff for parties.)
Christian modesty is just plain old moderation. There’s a wide spectrum of things that both women and men can wear without being immodest. It shouldn’t be a concept that makes people feel bad. Everybody should implement it in a way that fits his/her body and aesthetic sense, as well as their means, state in life, and activity level.
Fuse beauty and utility, and you will find that modesty is right there.
Modesty is about dignity, and dignity is about behaving in every situation in a way that reflects who you really are – a person baptized into the life of Christ, or a creation of God. This does not mean dressing the same way in every situation, because frankly that would be undignified.
Prudence is the virtue of making wise choices. You’re allowed to take worldly things into consideration, because a prudent person is both as clever as serpents and as gentle as doves. You’re also allowed to take situations like injury or illness into consideration. But a prudent person is never going to forget that actions and dress have just as much message in them as words do. In fact, actions and dress are usually believed more readily than words.
With all this in mind, it’s not surprising that St. Francis de Sales recommended, in his Introduction to the Devout Life, that a devout layperson dress and act in a way that will just seem normal, not startling. He was writing specifically to a woman of means, and he recommended that she stay reasonably in fashion but not be ridiculously fashion-forward or shocking. She should never look dowdy or try to be super-modest, because that would discredit her example of goodness and holiness. (Obviously the situation was different for priests and religious, who were supposed to be an example of not living in the world; but as an evangelist, he made a point of keeping his plain clerical clothes very clean and neat.) And yes, he thought that moderation in dress made a layperson a more attractive personality, better able to spread the Gospel.
Heh, you gotta love a French saint. (And yes, he was living in a time when celebrities and fashionistas also wore crazy immodest clothing. There was a famous incident when a hostess welcomed an archbishop to her home by putting on a presentation in the backyard involving her daughter and other marriageable young ladies role-playing as totally naked nymphs. And he wasn’t particularly shocked by it, because that’s the kind of thing aristocrats thought was nifty stuff for parties.)
Christian modesty is just plain old moderation. There’s a wide spectrum of things that both women and men can wear without being immodest. It shouldn’t be a concept that makes people feel bad. Everybody should implement it in a way that fits his/her body and aesthetic sense, as well as their means, state in life, and activity level.
Fuse beauty and utility, and you will find that modesty is right there.
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DarkLight
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Yeah, anyone who thinks immodesty is new needs to actually look at some of the Victorian attire. Sure, their ankles were covered, but the exposed bosom squeezed into shape by the corset (and possibly padding) was certainly in fashion!
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Bluebright
Guest
Forgive me I don’t know how to quote one bit of a comment or even any of the comment…
so I’ll just copy and paste… ‘Someone contended that even though we can train male soldiers to control their eating, drinking, sleeping, exercise habits, and make them observe strict discipline in all these areas of their life, in his opinion it is impossible to train them to control their sex drives if there is a female soldier in their barracks.’
I just wanted to add that it probably is ‘impossible’ … because it’s not something you do to someone, it’s something they do to themselves. So while it sounds the same, it isn’t, they probably want to control the other things because it makes them tough soldiers and is socially acceptable in the barracks life etc. but to control their ‘sex urges’ well that may not make them looks so tough/socially acceptable… so the ‘want’ isn’t there. For success you’d have to change that and so it would become possible. The short of it is they don’t all want to control their sex urges. I’m not saying wanting to is the end of the story, but it’s a start without it, they wouldn’t get anywhere. Woman just get the blame for the lack of want, cos lets face it, it could be difficult and it is bound to be humiliating at times. This is of course a generalisation.
so I’ll just copy and paste… ‘Someone contended that even though we can train male soldiers to control their eating, drinking, sleeping, exercise habits, and make them observe strict discipline in all these areas of their life, in his opinion it is impossible to train them to control their sex drives if there is a female soldier in their barracks.’
I just wanted to add that it probably is ‘impossible’ … because it’s not something you do to someone, it’s something they do to themselves. So while it sounds the same, it isn’t, they probably want to control the other things because it makes them tough soldiers and is socially acceptable in the barracks life etc. but to control their ‘sex urges’ well that may not make them looks so tough/socially acceptable… so the ‘want’ isn’t there. For success you’d have to change that and so it would become possible. The short of it is they don’t all want to control their sex urges. I’m not saying wanting to is the end of the story, but it’s a start without it, they wouldn’t get anywhere. Woman just get the blame for the lack of want, cos lets face it, it could be difficult and it is bound to be humiliating at times. This is of course a generalisation.
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DarkLight
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To quote, highlight the portion of text you want to quote and click “reply.”
I think this is definitely an issue with modern society. We tell men that part of manliness is objectifying women, and that they aren’t men without some level of aggression towards women (even if it’s just pushiness). So when we try to teach men about respect for women, the see that we want them to “not be men.”
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Mintaka
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Not to mention pushing out the butt in a way that would put Kim Kardashian to shame. There are butt pads for sale these days (which cracks me up), but there’s nothing available that’s as big-butted as the bustle!
The really amusing thing is that, in an Edwardian moral theology article by a Catholic theologian, he pointed out that there’s really no way that even a stripper with a large audience could offend against modesty as more than a venial sin. (It’s the audience that has to worry about lust, and they showed up specifically for the purpose.) Certainly no laywoman wearing stupid clothes to church could manage a mortal sin against modesty. He supported this opinion with a lot of quotes from older moral theologians.
So yes, obviously we are supposed to dress modestly. But there are worse things we can do that are not so obvious. Putting on Christ starts in the heart, and dressing moderately is just part of that.
The really amusing thing is that, in an Edwardian moral theology article by a Catholic theologian, he pointed out that there’s really no way that even a stripper with a large audience could offend against modesty as more than a venial sin. (It’s the audience that has to worry about lust, and they showed up specifically for the purpose.) Certainly no laywoman wearing stupid clothes to church could manage a mortal sin against modesty. He supported this opinion with a lot of quotes from older moral theologians.
So yes, obviously we are supposed to dress modestly. But there are worse things we can do that are not so obvious. Putting on Christ starts in the heart, and dressing moderately is just part of that.
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GodSoughtMe
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“Try[ing] to be super modest” is like advertising that you are super humble.
Francis De Sales as always. don’t try to stand out. Great advice.
Francis De Sales as always. don’t try to stand out. Great advice.
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Mintaka
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Actually, St. Francis de Sales did want his devout layperson to stand out. It’s a little hard to explain, so I’ll just quote him:
So basically, the idea is the sort of “absolutely classic” or “absolutely simple” dress, where you don’t have a lot of excess stuff on, but you just look good. You pick something nice that really fits you and your coloring, and then you don’t need to put on a show to be well-dressed. (In his time, fashion was big into jewels and trimmings, so a simple classic line would definitely stand out.)
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Bluebright
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Thank you , that wasn’t so hard.
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GodSoughtMe
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My immediate sense is to read the adornment of a meek and quiet spirit as the way in which the person is the best dressed since the person is the least “fine,” and to give priority to the passage where he quotes King Louis’ - but I certainly could be wrong about that.
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GodSoughtMe
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However, I appreciate his point that you just don’t want your clothes (whether over or underdressed) to be the subject of conversation, because why would you wanna talk about that.
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DarkLight
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One also has to realize that some people do seem to find other’s attire endlessly fascinating. Most of the rest of the world calls those “rude people.”
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GodSoughtMe
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Does that mean that 99% of modesty conversations are rude? And bad? And mayb just a bit stupid? And predictable?
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Mintaka
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The point is to do both things: to be good inside, and to look good outside (without going to extremes).
Yep, very French. St. Therese’s mom, St. Zelie Martin, made a point of being one of these “best-dressed in the room” people, for one, and certainly she was beautiful both inside and out! (And that lace her company made was both gorgeous and of good quality, so wearing it was both good advertising and nice for observers to see.) But she wasn’t rich, and she didn’t wear a lot of Victorian frills.
(Here’s a link to the book, so you can read it for yourself. And it’s worth reading the whole book, frankly, because it’s amazingly helpful on a lot of spiritual topics. It also includes a whole series of devotional meditations that you can follow day by day.)
And like I say, St. Francis de Sales was ridiculously successful in evangelizing people into Catholicism and back to Catholicism, in founding religious orders and good works, and in fostering other great saints, in a time that was very hostile to holiness. So his style of spirituality might not be for everybody; but it has to be considered seriously.
Yep, very French. St. Therese’s mom, St. Zelie Martin, made a point of being one of these “best-dressed in the room” people, for one, and certainly she was beautiful both inside and out! (And that lace her company made was both gorgeous and of good quality, so wearing it was both good advertising and nice for observers to see.) But she wasn’t rich, and she didn’t wear a lot of Victorian frills.
(Here’s a link to the book, so you can read it for yourself. And it’s worth reading the whole book, frankly, because it’s amazingly helpful on a lot of spiritual topics. It also includes a whole series of devotional meditations that you can follow day by day.)
And like I say, St. Francis de Sales was ridiculously successful in evangelizing people into Catholicism and back to Catholicism, in founding religious orders and good works, and in fostering other great saints, in a time that was very hostile to holiness. So his style of spirituality might not be for everybody; but it has to be considered seriously.
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DarkLight
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Maybe…
More seriously, there was an interesting point I’ve heard. Modesty conversations tend to be very centered on men and men’s desires and men dealing with sexual temptation. And it often seems women’s needs and desires and temptations are left out, except as they center around male desire. There’s a dismissal of modesty as, well, it’s just a matter of buying a few different clothes for women - despite many women saying that the discussion often does not amount to that for them. As a woman, it can often come across that modesty is still just another way of objectification, only instead of being on display as a sex object, one has to avoid attention because one is a sex object.
More seriously, there was an interesting point I’ve heard. Modesty conversations tend to be very centered on men and men’s desires and men dealing with sexual temptation. And it often seems women’s needs and desires and temptations are left out, except as they center around male desire. There’s a dismissal of modesty as, well, it’s just a matter of buying a few different clothes for women - despite many women saying that the discussion often does not amount to that for them. As a woman, it can often come across that modesty is still just another way of objectification, only instead of being on display as a sex object, one has to avoid attention because one is a sex object.
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Mintaka
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Heh. You should read Tertullian’s little treatise on the pallium (the late Roman cloak, not the bishop neckwear). It is a treatise all about how men are dressing immodestly if they don’t wear a cloak.
(He lived in North Africa, where it got hot but you also needed protection from the sun, so I think this was a factor.)
He also talks about how trousers are effeminate clothes that are only worn by barbarians. No pants for real men!
(And yes, he does point out that fashion does change. A lot.)
In general, he talks a lot about how Christians should get rid of togas because they are outmoded and are no longer a utilitarian garment, while wearing palliums is convenient for showing that they have been made new by Baptism. But mostly, he just doesn’t like togas, even though he was a lawyer who had to wear the toga to work in the courts. This cracks me up.
Anyway, there are some other examples of works about men’s modesty, although they usually shade into deploring excessive luxury or new weird fashions that have no utility. Depends a lot on the fashions of the time, too; there have been times when men’s display does turn into “How can you dress like that in public? We can totally see everything you own.”
Usually complaints about men’s modesty are worded as either against slovenliness and lack of care for observers, effeminacy in appearance, old guys trying to look young, or men of all ages trying too hard to attract women.
But I’m not sure if such works are actually uncommon, or if people today just don’t know much about them.
(He lived in North Africa, where it got hot but you also needed protection from the sun, so I think this was a factor.)
He also talks about how trousers are effeminate clothes that are only worn by barbarians. No pants for real men!
(And yes, he does point out that fashion does change. A lot.)
In general, he talks a lot about how Christians should get rid of togas because they are outmoded and are no longer a utilitarian garment, while wearing palliums is convenient for showing that they have been made new by Baptism. But mostly, he just doesn’t like togas, even though he was a lawyer who had to wear the toga to work in the courts. This cracks me up.
He also calls shoes “implements of torture,” and says it’s better to have cold feet than to wear anything other than comfy sandals. You gotta love him!
Anyway, there are some other examples of works about men’s modesty, although they usually shade into deploring excessive luxury or new weird fashions that have no utility. Depends a lot on the fashions of the time, too; there have been times when men’s display does turn into “How can you dress like that in public? We can totally see everything you own.”
Usually complaints about men’s modesty are worded as either against slovenliness and lack of care for observers, effeminacy in appearance, old guys trying to look young, or men of all ages trying too hard to attract women.
But I’m not sure if such works are actually uncommon, or if people today just don’t know much about them.
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GodSoughtMe
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Oh yeah, it is hard to over state the historical importance of Francis De Sales. Like, seriously.
I guess I don’t make much of a value of looking good, but some people benefit from the psychological value in dressing in a dignified way, but this is person specific so if that helps people it helps them.
I guess I don’t make much of a value of looking good, but some people benefit from the psychological value in dressing in a dignified way, but this is person specific so if that helps people it helps them.
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Crusaderbear
Guest
If something appears immodest, I just take off my glasses! Blurs are ALWAYS modest ! 
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