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Peter_J
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Thank you ltwin. You answered my question before I had a chance to ask it.
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ltwin
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Well, it sounds like you came from a background steeped in memorialism. There is nothing new about what I’ve said above. Protestants have always acknowledged the means of grace. The sermon I quoted was preached by John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, who died in 1791.
Presbyterians also acknowledge the “means of grace.” The Westminster Larger Catechism (1647) states:
Q. 35. How is the covenant of grace administered under the New Testament?
A. Under the New Testament, when Christ the substance was exhibited, the same covenant of grace was and still is to be administered in the preaching of the Word,[133] and the administration of the sacraments of Baptism[134] and the Lord’s Supper;[135] in which grace and salvation are held forth in more fulness, evidence, and efficacy, to all nations.[136]
Check out The Presbyterian Standards: an Exposition of the Westminster Confession of Faith and Catechisms by Francis R. Beattie published in 1921 which explains the teachings of the historic Presbyterian confessional standards. Beattie on the means of grace according to the Westminster Standards:
The Standards divide the means of grace into three branches. These are known as the word, the sacraments, and prayer. Each of these branches must have due attention given to it. Speaking in a general way, all divine ordinances are means of grace, so that in addition to the three things just mentioned there are others, such as providential dealings of blessing or affliction, and the fellowship which believers have with each other, which would have to be taken into account in a full exposition of the means of grace. The Standards suggest this when they state that the outward and ordinary means of grace are the ordinances of God, and then go on to say, especially the word, sacraments, and prayer, and then proceed to give a full exposition of these three main branches of these means. This chapter will begin the explanations to be made concerning the word of God as an important means of grace, and it will set forth some general points in relation thereto, so as to prepare the way for the exposition of the ten commandments in two subsequent chapters.
These means of grace just mentioned are called outward and ordinary. This means that the reading and preaching of the word, the observance of the sacraments, and the exercise of prayer, are the usual and external means by which Christ and the benefits of grace are conveyed to the believer, so that his spiritual life is purified and expanded thereby. The word outward indicates the relation of these means of grace to the believer, and suggests the contrast with the work of the Holy Spirit, and the exercise of the believer’s faith, which may be termed the inward means of grace. The term ordinary relates to the fact that by these means in general the work of sanctification is usually furthered, and the contrast is here suggested with unusual means of grace which are occasional in their nature, as may sometimes be seen in the dispensations of providence, or growing out of the intercourse of believers with one another. These are temporary means of grace.
It is worthy of further remark that the term means has a well-defined signification. As means of grace the word, the sacraments, and prayer, are mere channels through which grace is conveyed by divine appointment. In no proper sense are they agents, or are they possessed of inherent efficiency in themselves. The real agent in sanctification is the Holy Spirit. He it is who uses the word, or the sacraments to the spiritual benefit and growth in grace of believers, but these ordinances are in themselves ineffectual to this end. And on the believer’s part the exercise of faith, which itself is due to the Spirit’s work, is the condition of the spiritual efficacy of these means. There is no inherent virtue in any of these means, as will be seen more fully later on. The Spirit’s work and the office of faith are needed.
The Catechisms present these means of grace from still another point of view. The question is raised as to the things which God requires of men that they may escape his wrath and curse due to them for their sins. The answer is threefold. They must have faith in Christ, repentance toward God, and a diligent use of the outward and ordinary means whereby Christ gives to them the benefits of his mediation. From this point of view they are means of salvation, in the full sense of the term. But, without further delay, the general exposition of the word as a means of grace must be entered on.
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Darryl_B
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I think you misunderstand what I mean by “new”. 1791 John Wesley Methodism (self-destructing over the last few generations) is new in terms of protestantism which originated 250 years prior to that. If I take 1791 and subtract 250 years I get 1541. If I take 1791 and add 250 years I get 2041. So new. While you might cite Wesley I wonder how much exactly has survived among the movement to this day. I have still not witnessed any description of the mechanics other than the assertion that it is.
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Darryl_B
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Definitely not that. The meaning is “mercy”. Hence mercy seat.
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Darryl_B
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And yet, it is only once I raise the term that the subject exists. Propitiation is tied into “sacrifice” the “sacrifice” is what was removed by protestantism, therefore the priest, therefore the Church. I have read protestant scholars who are candid enough to recognize that, and as an ex-protestant I see that too.
Incidentally the reiteration of a word, does not add to its meaning, or qualify its existence.
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Darryl_B
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To answer this, you have to do away with your wrong meaning of the word, and look at the situation from the actual real meaning of the word. Protestants will answer no, solely because if they are anything like your definition of the word, they have no choice.
But as far as I am concerned, if Jesus Christ says “this is my body, this is my blood” then I am more than happy to believe Him, because with God prehumous is not impossible. Else His credibility wanes and I would be better, which I am simply not. But there is propitiation in that moment, that upper room, because the propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus Christ is right here right now because it was able to be right there prior to the event.
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alwayswill
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merriam-webster.com/dictionary/propitiating
Full Definition of propitiate
propitiatedpropitiating
Code:
transitive verb
: to gain or regain the favor or goodwill of : appease"Propitiation means the turning away of wrath by an offering
the act of atoning for sin or wrongdoing (especially appeasing a deity)
vocabulary.com/dictionary/propitiation
the act of atoning for sin or wrongdoing (especially appeasing a deity)
dictionary.com/browse/propitiate
1.
to make favorably inclined; appease; conciliate.
**your turn:what does propitiate mean?**
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alwayswill
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is this definition acceptable?
From the Modern Catholic Dictionary
therealpresence.org/cgi-bin/getdefinition.pl
PROPITIATION. To placate or appease an angry person.
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alwayswill
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see post 7on page 1 of this thread
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ltwin
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Presbyterianism is new? What is “Old Protestantism” to you?
John Wesley was a high church Anglican. That’s hardly representative of “new Protestantism.”
It depends on where you look. African Methodists seem to be pretty faithful. Then you have the Holiness Movement churches, which have done a fair job of preserving much of his original ethos.
Did you read what I quoted from The Presbyterian Standards. I think that explains the “mechanics” well enough. As to how symbolic bread and wine can be meaningful channels of grace, you take the Holy Spirit and the faith of the believer (which also comes from the Holy Spirit) and there you go. Those are the mechanics.
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Darryl_B
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In Luke there are two men one a Pharisee the other a Publican. The Publican says “Lord have mercy on me a sinner”. That is seeking propitiation.
Have pity towards. Throw yourself on the mercy of the court. Hence mercy seat.
But God who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses (children of wrath). made us alive together with Christ, (by grace you have been saved), … immeasurable riches of his grace and kindness.
What is God’s attitude? What is God’s action?
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Darryl_B
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I don’t think you understand. You cited John Wesley. I call him a new kid on the block. That’s all. You don’t have to pursue this in this manner of sensitivity.
The Holy Spirit? Is that the mechanic? That is independent of symbolic bread and wine. There is no mechanics in that process.
(What we should do is get a citation from Augustine using the 10 second google search copy paste and ignore everything else Augustine said.)
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alwayswill
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I am still hoping you would answer:
you stated that i had the wrong definition:
So I’ll ask again
What does propitiate mean?
Was the Last Supper propitiatory?
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ltwin
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The Holy Spirit is independent of the bread and wine in the sense that he doesn’t need to use them to dispense grace. The bread and the wine are sacraments: outward signs of inward grace. In the Lord’s supper, the sufferings and death of Christ (and all that these provide for us for our salvation and growth in holiness), are the spiritual grace. All grace comes from the agency of the Holy Spirit, but he is not in bread and wine. He is at work in our hearts. The reality of the sacrament is the grace at work in our souls.
If we must talk about “mechanics” they are this: the blessing of Christ (which he gives in his Word), the agency of the Spirit, and the faith of the believer. By the words of institution, Christ has established a spiritual relationship between the signs and the grace in the sacrament. This is why we expect spiritual blessing to accompany the reception of the communion meal, not because of any inherent grace within the meal itself. Christ has sanctified it as a means of grace by his Word. We receive this grace by the operation of the Holy Spirit as we partake worthily in faith, repentance, love for God and neighbor, forgiveness to those who’ve wronged us, meditation on Christ’s life and atoning work and resolve for greater submission and obedience to Christ.
The signs themselves are not arbitrary or merely figurative. You can’t take meatloaf and Coca Cola and expect to receive any spiritual benefit from it even if you prayed over it for that purpose. We expect the blessings of Christ and the power of the Spirit in communion precisely because it was instituted by Christ as an ordinary means of his grace for those who partake worthily and a means of condemnation on those who partake unworthily.
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