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imkingdad
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If she’s Busy I can send you mine…
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Parascheva1014
Guest
How incredibly ironic that a Catholic is claiming you can’t just start your own Church. You all started this with your innovative claim to papal authority which resulted ultimately in the Great Schism. Your great many theological innovations then lead to the reformation. Now that people are starting their own churches you want to cry foul when you laid the ground work for this. It is your own doctrine of once a priest always a priest that even allows some of those groups to claim a rediculas notion of apostolic succession. Once you left the Orthodox Church you no longer had apostolic succession yourselves.
The pot and the Kettle. What a western mess.
The pot and the Kettle. What a western mess.
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agiosotheos
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Heh.
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Bill_Pick
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No thank you one is one to many,but I love herIf she’s Busy I can send you mine…
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thecourt
Guest
Correction, you do not put your faith in the truth, whether you agree with the source of that truth.
My best example is the “selection of the pope”. When every holder of the priesthood in Catholicism made the “choice”, and that what it was, to hold the priesthood. I have a significant problem with that. The Lord chose the Twelve apostles, not the other way around where the Twelve chose themselves. Yet your current pope was “selected” by a group who have no more recognized priesthood authority than a preacher, who decided years earlier, when he “chose” to become a preacher.
Priesthood authority in my church is clearly understood and I did not go out and “chose” to hold the priesthood. I was ordained by those in authority, who themselves did not “chose” the priesthood, such as how one chooses what house they will live in, the food they will eat, etc.
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Bill_Pick
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You have so many things that make you a cult your cult makes Joseph Smith more important than Jesus Christ, you practice baptism for dead people. and what you believe, Jesus Christ was married.
Your as bad as Jim Jones
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BrianH
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As bad as Jim Jones? That was one of the most ignorant things I have ever read on this forum Bill. Get real.
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crazzeto
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Nah, we just recongize that you had apostolic authority (succession) at the time of the split. Because unlike the Protestants you didn’t throw out the baby with the bath water, you’ve managed to retain this. But you’re still another group of churches which split off from usWell your church recognises the bishops in my church as being true bishops, so clearly your own church is recognising that my church is the one church which Jesus Christ founded.
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thecourt
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Look who is calling the kettel black, your worship of Mary – yes she is the mother of Jesus Christ, much different from the lack of worship I have with Joseph Smith. Further, baptism for the dead is stated in the New Testament – but alas you will say that is Mormon doctrine or some other false garbage. I do not believe Jesus was married.
Comparing my church to Jim Jones is laughable — no one who is a member, including myself is being “forced to drink anything” and follow anyone crazy. I follow Jesus Christ.
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Bill_Pick
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No I think baptism for dead people is the most ignorant.
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twopekinguys
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Whoa!!!
You were ordained by those in authority? You were ordained by those who did not “choose” to be ordained? Let’s examine these shall we??
1.Your church claims an apostacy, but cannot say when it occured. Nothing was lost, so nothing needed to be restored. Problem number 1 for the lds.
- Your church gives an ambiguos statement that it happened sometime after the death of the last apostle, and no one was leading the church. Do you realize that your own church was without a leader for several years at a time? 3 years between Joe Smith and Brigham Young, 2 years between Young, and John Taylor, 2 years between Taylor, and Wilford Woodruff. Sounds like you have a good bit of apostacy there yourself now don’t you?
- The College of Cardinals who selected the Pope have no authority? Everyone member of the Catholic priesthood can trace their priestly lineage back to Peter, who was ultimately selected by Jesus himself. You can go back to JS, who had 7 versions of his “first vision”. Real reliable stuff there.
- So you don’t want to be ordained by someone who “chose” a loving relationship with the Lord? You would rather be ordained by someone who was forced into it, and didn’t have any choice in the matter? Remember a little thing called free-will?
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BrianH
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Then you did not know anyone who died in November of 1978 over there.
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twopekinguys
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Lol, you are too funny sometimes, and I’m sure that even you don’t take yourself seriously sometimes.
If you would do just an itsy bitsy type of research, or even bother to listen to what people tell you, you would know that Catholics do not worship Mary. Never have, never will. However, we do honor her in that she is the Mother of God. Even with us honoring her, it is nothing in comparison to how the lds view and revere JS.
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twopekinguys
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Sorry Bill, but that Jim Jones comment was wrong, and uncalled for. You really should apologize, and retract it.
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thecourt
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To reply, the apostasy was after Jesus Christ was resurrected and the remaining apostles died or were killed, putting in place the opportunity for unauthorized people to establish churches and change the doctrine, example infant baptism. So Catholicism will not recognize that fact and how it resulted in the Protestants coming to be, you do not want to understand the apostasy so that problem as you call for us is solved.
My church has never been with leadership. If you are referring to those who split with church, claiming that one of Joseph Smith’s sons was to “succeed him” - I guess that what are referring to.
The fact is Joseph Smith never denied the vision regardless the number you claim.
To me is is laughable to think that I was forced to do anything. Catholics should understand what I believe you call free will – I call it agency, meaning I am a agent for myself relative to the truth and will of the Lord – I choose to keep the commandments or I do not.
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twopekinguys
Guest
Maybe you don’t understand your own church history. Let me direct you to a “pro-momorn” website. moroni10.com/apostles-chronology.html
You will see several gaps in your leadership.
Joseph Smith Jr. (April 1830-June 1844)
Brigham Young (Dec. 1847 - Aug. 1877)
John Taylor (Oct. 1880 - July 1887)
Wilford Woodruff (April 1889 - Sept. 1898)
So, by your own statement above, “the apostasy was after Jesus Christ was resurrected and the remaining apostles died or were killed, putting in place the opportunity for unauthorized people to establish churches and change the doctrine” The lds church fits your definition perfectly, including adding/changing doctrine.
With regard to infant baptism, you realize that the Bible tells of entire families being baptized. Don’t you think that would include infants? After all, the lds offer proxy baptisms for infants.
You say that smith never denied the first vision? Which version are you talking about? How can you take the first vision seriosly when there are so many versions of it? It is obvious that JS was making it up as he went along, and changed his story to fit the crowd he was speaking with.
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thecourt
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I understand the history fine. I do not waste my time with sites that give “their version” of the history, trying to confuse and mislead, of which they can do. It does not change the history as I understand it.
Infants who have died, by proxy in the temple, since they are not here in the flesh versus being alive and committing any sins — the key distinction for me — certainly not understand the difference between right and wrong as Catholics claim they must understand.
The only point again I will make regarding the First Vision, regarding the number that you claim, is he never denied it. You want to confuse me with this number issue which from my thinking is nothing more than more the recycled garbage you folks throw around to try to convince me regarding my conviction of the truth of the vision from the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost answered my questions so nothing said here will change that at all.
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Bill_Pick
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Why did you start off with a lie,Cathloic do not WORSHIP Mary. That is just another lie by you,CATHLOICS DO NOT WORSHIP MAY.
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thecourt
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So explain, when we all recognize that she was the mother of Jesus Christ, have all this, in my view, unnecessary focus on her, including whatever days you have in your calendar?
Again for me this is why I left Catholicism seeking the truth — Catholicism has too many obvious issues, doctrinally, that resulting in me leaving.
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twopekinguys
Guest
LOL, you obviously didn’t check out the site. It is a pro mormon site. He is mormon and he posted the information on there. He’s on your side. It appears he understands your church history better than you do. Which is unfortunate.
Regarding infant baptism, Catholics don’t believe that infants must know the difference between right and wrong. Infant baptism removes the stain of original sin. lds and several protestant religions are the ones that believe a person must understand the difference between right and wrong. That is why you wait for the “age of reason” right? Then why baptize an infant by proxy? They haven’t reached the age of reason. Sorry, but you can’t have it both ways.
I’m not trying to confuse you with anything about the first vision. Tell me which version of the first vision you believe. Since they are all different in some way. Or do you believe in all of the different versions?
Your last statement speaks volumes. Many lds, when confronted with something they, or their church cannot explain, simply bear your testimony.
I am glad you are lds. I am glad you want to stay lds. I hope you find everything you want being lds, etc.
With that being said, I will ask you this. You have said that nothing will change you from being lds. You have complained about the misinformation about the lds church, but yet you have spread misinformation about the Catholic church, and yourself.
Why are you here?
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