What Authority

[Bill_Pick]

First with infant baptism. So you believe that a baby, born today for example, must be held accountable for Adam and Eve’s sin in the garden, when that baby was not there to commit the sin? Regarding age of reason, as you call it, I am speaking accountability – how can a baby born today be accountable for Adam and Eve’s sin in the garden when that baby was not present in the garden?

The First Vision was confirmed to me by the Holy Ghost regardless of how many “versions” you folks claim about Joseph Smith.

I recognize the forums exist to “set the record the straight about Mormonism”. It does not mean that what is said here, believed by those here is accurate. Personally no one knows me so attacking my integrity is not needed. I do not know any of you personally and am not going to start attacking you personally.

I am LDS because doctrinally me and Catholicism went our own ways. I will continue to defend my church regardless of what is said here. If you have a problem with that, it is not my problem.

Thecourt,You belong to a cult ,I belong to the Church start by My Lord Jesus Christ.,case close

 

[Sword_Brethren]

True. But the Roman Communion is not the Holy Catholic Church.

Matthew 16 :18
“And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

 

[rev_kevin]

Thecourt,You belong to a cult ,I belong to the Church start by My Lord Jesus Christ.,case close

Bill please read my post on what a “cult” is. I’m sorry my friend but you are wrong according to defination.

 

[twopekinguys]

You state that so arrogantly that anyone who questions that should not dare do that.

The authority is one of a number of issues that resulted me leaving Catholicism.

People attack my church yet I do not know if have considered that the Protestant reformers had issues with Catholicism doctrinally and Joseph Smith, when he in went into the grove of trees to pray, asking which church that existed at the time he should join, and the Catholic church was one of them, it was never his intent to be told to join none them because they professed to be his churches yet he was told they were far from God, teaching for doctrine, commandments of men, which is important. If the Catholic church was the true church of Jesus Christ, he would have been told such as the answer and the eventual restoration of the true church of Jesus Christ would not have been necessary.

Yep, the reformers had issues with the Church, and the Church recognizes that, and has addressed many of the issues, and some are still being addressed today. But nothing to the extent of making things up with a constantly changing doctrine like the lds has. Based on the first vision alone, it is unclear who JS was visited by. Assuming that he was visited at all. It is unclear if they were flesh or spirit. It is unclear if it was God the Father and Jesus, or Moroni, etc. etc. etc.

If you want to talk about attacking your church, how long did your church refer to the Catholic Church as the Great Whore of Bablyon? Now there is an attack for you.

JS also knew that what he wanted to do would never be allowed if he tried to join one of the mainstream churches that were around in that day. He had to make things up as he went along.

Considering all of the inconsistancies and irregularities surrounding the lds church, from the very beginning. Nobody saw the plates. He stuck his head in a hat and used a peepstone. The plates were lost. The Kinderhook Plates. Multiple wives. Multiple changes to the BoM. Multiple changes to the D & C. and the list goes on and on and on.

I just think it is too hard for any right thinking person using any type of reasoning skills to just ignore all of this. But if it works for you, then I say go for it.

In case you haven’t figured it out. God is the one thing that is constant. God doesn’t change his mind. Man however changes constantly.

Before you say it, yes, I/we know you have a testimony that the BoM is right.

 

[rev_kevin]

Matthew 16 :18
“And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

In the Bible the church is the body of Christ which is found in Ephesians 1:23 which says." And the church is his body, it is fulled by Christ, who fills everything everywhere with his presents."
Colossians 1:18 which says, “Christ the head of the church, which is his body…”
Matthew 16:18 says, “Now I say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church…”
Now if the Church is the Body of Christ so what religion was Jesus? I don’t think he was Catholic so if Peter was the rock that Jesus will build his church on are you saying that Jesus was Catholic? If not then Peter started his own church like you, meaning Catholics, condemn Prostestants of doing. The true church is the body of Christ as stated in the Bible.

 

[agiosotheos]

Matthew 16 :18
“And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

I’m well aware of this passage. What is your point in posting it?

 

[twopekinguys]

snipped to here.

So it, as you have questioned, is false how is profession doctrinally? I have not interest in a tradition created by man that said I must be accountable for Adam and Eve’s direct sin — there is the distinction for me when you speak of original sin and what I call the Fall.

If you are not interested in a tradition created by a man, why are you lds?

 

[DerekD]

Now show me the verse(s) in the Bible which gives the authority to any human creature to found another church other than the ONE CHURCH which Jesus Christ founded?
Show me the verse(s) which authorizes anyone to simply hold up a Bible and proclaim, “This is my authority”. Do non-cathloic have to start a Church and call them self BISHOP what gives a preasher the authority call him self a Bishop

There is no TRUE church other than the one that Christ builds; this church is clearly defined in Scripture.

Ac 12:5 So Peter was kept in the prison, but prayer for him was being made fervently by the church to God. Was this the Bishops, magisterium and deposit of faith praying for Peter? Or was it individuals that make up the church?

Ac 15:4 When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them.

Who are the “church” in this scene? It wasn’t the elders or apostles; so who could it be?

Ac 20:28 "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

What does a shepherd do? Watch over and care for the sheep? Who are the sheep? the church?

1Co 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their {Lord} and ours:

Who are the members in this church?

1Co 16:19 The churches of Asia greet you. Aquila and Prisca greet you heartily in the Lord, with the church that is in their house. Is the church the gathering of individual believers; no matter where they are gathered?

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself {being} the Savior of the body.
Is christ the Head of the heavenly church or both heaven and earth?

1 Corinthians 12:12-26 12 For even as the body is one and {yet} has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many. 15 If the foot says, “Because I am not a hand, I am not {a part} of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less {a part} of the body. 16 And if the ear says, “Because I am not an eye, I am not {a part} of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less {a part} of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. 19 If they were all one member, where would the body be? 20 But now there are many members, but one body.

Notice baptised into Christ by the spirit, not water.

Colossians 2:16-23 16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God. 20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations– 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using–according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 ***These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh. ***

 

[DerekD]

In light of your view of original sin, consider this — because Adam and Eve partook of the fruit, we as their descendants inherit a fallen condition. Catholics and my church recognizes that, where we differ is how through the Atonement, Christ redeems us from our sins (that we commit – original sin or what we call the Fall differs only in that we profess one must be taught the distinction and baptized in his true church-- and our existence here in mortality, I will call a probationary state, when we are properly baptized by one holding the authority, if when we sin we have opportunity to repent and endure to the end.

So it, as you have questioned, is false how is profession doctrinally? I have not interest in a tradition created by man that said I must be accountable for Adam and Eve’s direct sin — there is the distinction for me when you speak of original sin and what I call the Fall.

Do you not belong to a church built upon a man named Joseph Smith? "Mormonism began in 1820 when a teen-aged boy in western New York named Joseph Smith was spurred by a Christian revival where he lived to pray to God for guidance as to which church was true. In answer to his prayers he was visited by God the Father and God the Son, two separate beings, who told him to join no church because all the churches at that time were false, and that he, Joseph, would bring forth the true church. This event is called “The First Vision.”

The only persons who claimed to have actually seen the gold plates were eleven close friends of Smith (many of them related to each other). Their testimonies are printed in the front of every copy of the Book of Mormon. No disinterested third party was ever allowed to examine them. They were retrieved by the angel at some unrecorded point. Most of the witnesses later abandoned Smith and left his movement. Smith then called them “liars.”

In 1828, eight years after he supposedly had been told by God himself to join no church, Smith applied for membership in a local Methodist church. Other members of his family had joined the Presbyterians.

Source
exmormon.org/tract2.htm

 

[Bill_Pick]

Bill please read my post on what a “cult” is. I’m sorry my friend but you are wrong according to defination.

rev Me and you have two dictonary here is what Ny said,

the term cult is often used by the general public to describe any religious group they view as strange or dangerous.
I think the LDS are strange…not going to get in to now,the thread is dead to me,Thank for your post it was nice talking to you and may God bless you

 

[thecourt]

not arrogantly. That is what the Catholic Church teaches.

Just because Catholicism teaches such, as you claim, does not make it true.

 

[rev_kevin]

rev Me and you have two dictonary here is what Ny said,

the term cult is often used by the general public to describe any religious group they view as strange or dangerous.
I think the LDS are strange…not going to get in to now,the thread is dead to me,Thank for your post it was nice talking to you and may God bless you

I got mine from webster and websters student dictionary’s.
I agree with you.
Nice to here from you also God Bless.

 

[thecourt]

Thecourt,You belong to a cult ,I belong to the Church start by My Lord Jesus Christ.,case close

According the definition of cult, Catholicism in most Protestants eyes would be a cult — Catholicism being strange, which is the particular term in the definition.

Most people have issues with Joseph Smith, unfortunately when he was murdered by our enemies in 1844, they thought my church would die. Now in 2009 with over 13 million and growing, those seeking the truth continue to grow.

 

[Bill_Pick]

According the definition of cult, Catholicism in most Protestants eyes would be a cult — Catholicism being strange, which is the particular term in the definition.

Most people have issues with Joseph Smith, unfortunately when he was murdered by our enemies in 1844, they thought my church would die. Now in 2009 with over 13 million and growing, those seeking the truth continue to grow.

13 million,well the Church that was started my May Lord has over 1,2 billion thats a big diff

 

[thecourt]

13 million,well the Church that was started my May Lord has over 1,2 billion thats a big diff

Your numbers could be bigger if in fact you were the true church – explaining the Protestants and my church.

 

[mrparker]

Really guys? are you really having this childish argument? Do you think Christ would proud of either of you for the way you are “defending” him? doubtful.

The thing is, Catholics think they are right and the only true church of Christ.
Likewise, LDS think they are right and the only true church of Christ.

No matter who you are, if you REALLY believe you are in the church of Christ, do you really need to defend yourself against the church you think is “strange” or “apostate”? Besides, strange is such a subjective term.

All you who keep pointing fingers at faults of eachother’s religion trying to destroy the faith of eachother, i might venture to say are moved into speech by the devil and pride. If you have true faith, and confidence in your Savior, offer up onto the table why you have such strong conviction in your faith, and those that have ears to hear, will hear. And those who disagree because of their own opposing conviction, should be able to say, “that’s interesting, i disagree, but this is why I have faith in my religion.” I guarantee you all that if you will discuss Christ and His gospel in that manner of uplifting and edification, you will be able to walk away from this forum having felt the spirit.

I have faith that Christ is my savior. Whenever I read the scriptures of his atonement, and what he was sacrificed for me, i cannot deny the overwhelming burning in my heart that Christ did live a perfect life for me (us) and so was able to fulfill the atonement and redeem me from my sins. I know that Christ has redeemed me from the fall, and that I will be saved because i have been born again and strive to live my life as he would have me.

I don’t care if you have 13 million or 1.x billion members, that does not determine your salvation. I believe there will be many in every religion who think they will be saved and will be surprised to find themselves in eternal anquish because of their ignorance, pride, and laziness.

Jesus says in Matthew 7:21, “Not everyone who says to Me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father which is in heaven.”

 

[teachccd]

Most people have issues with Joseph Smith, unfortunately when he was murdered by our enemies in 1844, they thought my church would die. Now in 2009 with over 13 million and growing, those seeking the truth continue to grow.

Many have issues with Jesus Christ, unfortunately when He was murdered by the people of His time all of our sins in 33 A.D. they thought my Church would die. Now in 2009 with over 1.2 billion and growing, those seeking the truth continue to grow. And as Jesus said 2000 years ago, the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. The founder of my Church is the Eternal Word of God. I’ll stick with Him and what He says…teachccd

 

[teachccd]

Really guys? are you really having this childish argument? Do you think Christ would proud of either of you for the way you are “defending” him? doubtful.

The thing is, Catholics think they are right and the only true church of Christ.
Likewise, LDS think they are right and the only true church of Christ.

No matter who you are, if you REALLY believe you are in the church of Christ, do you really need to defend yourself against the church you think is “strange” or “apostate”? Besides, strange is such a subjective term.

All you who keep pointing fingers at faults of eachother’s religion trying to destroy the faith of eachother, i might venture to say are moved into speech by the devil and pride. If you have true faith, and confidence in your Savior, offer up onto the table why you have such strong conviction in your faith, and those that have ears to hear, will hear. And those who disagree because of their own opposing conviction, should be able to say, “that’s interesting, i disagree, but this is why I have faith in my religion.” I guarantee you all that if you will discuss Christ and His gospel in that manner of uplifting and edification, you will be able to walk away from this forum having felt the spirit.

I have faith that Christ is my savior. Whenever I read the scriptures of his atonement, and what he was sacrificed for me, i cannot deny the overwhelming burning in my heart that Christ did live a perfect life for me (us) and so was able to fulfill the atonement and redeem me from my sins. I know that Christ has redeemed me from the fall, and that I will be saved because i have been born again and strive to live my life as he would have me.

I don’t care if you have 13 million or 1.x billion members, that does not determine your salvation. I believe there will be many in every religion who think they will be saved and will be surprised to find themselves in eternal anquish because of their ignorance, pride, and laziness.

Jesus says in Matthew 7:21, “Not everyone who says to Me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father which is in heaven.”

So Jesus never confronted His oppostion for the advancement of truth? Do I dare ask you if this was pride? He admonished those who stuck to the law as well as those who doubted. He told the Pharisees what He thought of their beliefs and He spared no words to spread His message from the Father. Should we not do the same? I do agree that this should always be done in charity and not to win an argument but to save souls…God bless…teachccd

 

[mrparker]

So Jesus never confronted His oppostion for the advancement of truth? Do I dare ask you if this was pride? He admonished those who stuck to the law as well as those who doubted. He told the Pharisees what He thought of their beliefs and He spared no words to spread His message from the Father. Should we not do the same? I do agree that this should always be done in charity and not to win an argument but to save souls…God bless…teachccd

Agreed. Fortunately Christ was perfect and never had anything but love and charity in his heart. And so I can imagine his admonishings were perfect as well in their delivery of what his Father God would have him say. UNfortunately, we are human, and weak and prideful, and majority of how and what is said in this thread is just bickering for the sake of wining the argument. Especially notable when people say “my church” which i dislike, because i dont care what religion you are, if you believe it was the church Christ established, its His church, so either refer to it by name, or call it Christ’s church ( harder to do when two opposing views both think their churches are Christ’s - might get a little confusing as to reference haha).

And this is why i offered up my simple suggestion on belief sharing and its method - due to our infirmities and pride.

In my opinion, an honest seeker of truth, on either side, would not be offended by “attacks” or “accusations.” For example, If an honest truth seeker(mormon) was told that he was in a church that is founded on a man named Joseph Smith and that they worship joseph smith and that there are 7 versions of his first vision, that Mormon might say, Hmm, i wonder why the Catholic (accuser) believes that, and try to understand from the Catholic’s point of view as to why he(the catholic) thinks that the LDS faith is so strange or hard to believe.
OR
If the Catholic hears how the LDS called the Catholic the whore of babylon, he might say, i wonder why they have called us this so blatantly? Then further investigate and try to understand from the LDS perspective as to why the LDS have said and or believe such things.
THAT way
In either circumstance, the accused party is then enlightened into the mind and understanding of the opposing faith, and can then chose and discern for himself whether or not it is truth. As we all have the light of Christ in us to discern right from wrong.

BUT instead what is happening is someone accuses another of falsities and inconsistencies in their religion, and so the accused party takes a “hit to their pride” because the “group” they belong to has been “insulted” and feel this uncontrolled desire to snap back or stab back and make a return “more damaging” accusation to “show them” who is REALLY wrong here. Which ultimately is lame, childish, pointless, and unproductive.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Now show me the verse(s) in the Bible which gives the authority to any human creature to found another church other than the ONE CHURCH which Jesus Christ founded?

There is no verse that allows "any human creature found another church other than the ONE CHURCH which Jesus Christ founded’. However the CC is not that church. The bible teaches us that there are two requirements to be Jesus’ church found in Rev 12:17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The church must keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The CC fails in both of these criteria.

Show me the verse(s) which authorizes anyone to simply hold up a Bible and proclaim, “This is my authority”.

Jn8:31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Do non-cathloic have to start a Church and call them self BISHOP what gives a preasher the authority call him self a Bishop

Titus1:7For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
9Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

These are the requirements to be a bishop. The most important being holding fast to the word of God