What Authority

[teachccd]

Agreed. Fortunately Christ was perfect and never had anything but love and charity in his heart. And so I can imagine his admonishings were perfect as well in their delivery of what his Father God would have him say. UNfortunately, we are human, and weak and prideful, and majority of how and what is said in this thread is just bickering for the sake of wining the argument. Especially notable when people say “my church” which i dislike, because i dont care what religion you are, if you believe it was the church Christ established, its His church, so either refer to it by name, or call it Christ’s church ( harder to do when two opposing views both think their churches are Christ’s - might get a little confusing as to reference haha).

And this is why i offered up my simple suggestion on belief sharing and its method - due to our infirmities and pride.

In my opinion, an honest seeker of truth, on either side, would not be offended by “attacks” or “accusations.” For example, If an honest truth seeker(mormon) was told that he was in a church that is founded on a man named Joseph Smith and that they worship joseph smith and that there are 7 versions of his first vision, that Mormon might say, Hmm, i wonder why the Catholic (accuser) believes that, and try to understand from the Catholic’s point of view as to why he(the catholic) thinks that the LDS faith is so strange or hard to believe.
OR
If the Catholic hears how the LDS called the Catholic the whore of babylon, he might say, i wonder why they have called us this so blatantly? Then further investigate and try to understand from the LDS perspective as to why the LDS have said and or believe such things.
THAT way
In either circumstance, the accused party is then enlightened into the mind and understanding of the opposing faith, and can then chose and discern for himself whether or not it is truth. As we all have the light of Christ in us to discern right from wrong.

BUT instead what is happening is someone accuses another of falsities and inconsistencies in their religion, and so the accused party takes a “hit to their pride” because the “group” they belong to has been “insulted” and feel this uncontrolled desire to snap back or stab back and make a return “more damaging” accusation to “show them” who is REALLY wrong here. Which ultimately is lame, childish, pointless, and unproductive.

I agree with all of your comments except calling Christ’s Church, my Church. I’m sure that you call Jesus, “My Lord”. That should not exhibit a false sense of pride but one of awesome incusion into the Body of Christ. So since I know that Christ founded His Church and that the Church He founded is the Catholic Church then I have no sense of personal pride proclaiming this Churhc as “My Church”. Again this should be no more offensive than if a Jew heard you proclaiming Jesus as, “My Lord.”

All of the other comments I am in total agreement and even Paul would not have the love and compassion of Christ since he was not Christ but he nevertheless spoke the truth and admonished many who fell from that truth…God bless…teachccd

 

[teachccd]

There is no verse that allows "any human creature found another church other than the ONE CHURCH which Jesus Christ founded’. However the CC is not that church. The bible teaches us that there are two requirements to be Jesus’ church found in Rev 12:17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The church must keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The CC fails in both of these criteria.

Jn8:31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Titus1:7For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
9Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

These are the requirements to be a bishop. The most important being holding fast to the word of God

The book of Mormon claims inspiration as does the Quran. Without an authoritative Church how do you claim that the bible is indeed the inspired Word of God? Because it says so? Because you feel inspired by its contents? The Mormons believe that about their Book of Mormon. They refer to it as a “burning in the bosom”. You are so quick to dismiss the Church that wrote, acknowledged and maintianed the Word of God throughout the centuries of time. Everytime you read from Scripture, everytime you use the term bible, everytime you use the term Trinity and everytime you accept the 27 books of the New testament you are adhereing to the authority of the Catholic Church. Jesus gave us His Church and never wrote anything down nor did He command anyone to write anything down. It was the Church that first preached the Word and then wrote it down and then discerned through the hundreds of manuscripts as to which ones were inspired and then maintained them for you.

Now you can take the final product and dismiss its very source. Before you say that the Catholic Church fails in holding to the commandments and testimony of Christ give us back our bible…teachccd

 

[mrparker]

I agree with all of your comments except calling Christ’s Church, my Church. I’m sure that you call Jesus, “My Lord”. That should not exhibit a false sense of pride but one of awesome incusion into the Body of Christ. So since I know that Christ founded His Church and that the Church He founded is the Catholic Church then I have no sense of personal pride proclaiming this Churhc as “My Church”. Again this should be no more offensive than if a Jew heard you proclaiming Jesus as, “My Lord.”

All of the other comments I am in total agreement and even Paul would not have the love and compassion of Christ since he was not Christ but he nevertheless spoke the truth and admonished many who fell from that truth…God bless…teachccd

In that perspective i agree with you. I guess I had never thought of it that way, because i only heard it in contexts of prideful defense. So in a humble attitude like one would say “My Lord” i would agree with you in that it is A Ok.

Well said

 

[mrparker]

It was the Church that first preached the Word and then wrote it down and then discerned through the hundreds of manuscripts as to which ones were inspired and then maintained them for you.

Curious, how did they discern which were inspired without claiming revelation or guidance from Christ or the Spirit?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

The book of Mormon claims inspiration as does the Quran. Without an authoritative Church how do you claim that the bible is indeed the inspired Word of God? Because it says so? Because you feel inspired by its contents? The Mormons believe that about their Book of Mormon. They refer to it as a “burning in the bosom”. You are so quick to dismiss the Church that wrote, acknowledged and maintianed the Word of God throughout the centuries of time. Everytime you read from Scripture, everytime you use the term bible, everytime you use the term Trinity and everytime you accept the 27 books of the New testament you are adhereing to the authority of the Catholic Church. Jesus gave us His Church and never wrote anything down nor did He command anyone to write anything down. It was the Church that first preached the Word and then wrote it down and then discerned through the hundreds of manuscripts as to which ones were inspired and then maintained them for you.

Now you can take the final product and dismiss its very source. Before you say that the Catholic Church fails in holding to the commandments and testimony of Christ give us back our bible…teachccd

I’ve heard all this before many times on this forum and it just makes me a little ill. It would be funny if it weren’t so sad. To think that you really believe this. The bible is the WORD OF GOD not the word of the CC. The bible or the WORD OF GOD was given to mankind not to the CC. This statement **" Everytime you read from Scripture, everytime you use the term bible, everytime you use the term Trinity and everytime you accept the 27 books of the New testament you are adhereing to the authority of the Catholic Church." **is just such an unbelievably pompous and arrogant claim which wouldn’t be so bad if there was any truth to it at all. I believe in the bible because it is the WORD OF GOD not the CC. It is the WORDS OF JESUS. I have accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior in faith. I don’t need any church to validate that faith. I know that Jesus is the Son of God through faith. I don’t need any church to tell me so. Here is some more of Jn chapter 8

33They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

How are we made free? By continuing in the word of the CC? No!!! By continuing in the Words of Jesus.

38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
48Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
49Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
50And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
51Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Who is your father teach?

 

[teachccd]

Curious, how did they discern which were inspired without claiming revelation or guidance from Christ or the Spirit?

The same Holy Spirit that inspired the writers inspired the Church to acknowledge which writings were to be included in the canon. The Spirit continues to guide the Church today as Christ promised. Before he ascended He promised not to leave us orphans and sent the Spirit of Truth…God bless…teachccd

 

[teachccd]

I’ve heard all this before many times on this forum and it just makes me a little ill. It would be funny if it weren’t so sad. To think that you really believe this. The bible is the WORD OF GOD not the word of the CC. The bible or the WORD OF GOD was given to mankind not to the CC. This statement **" Everytime you read from Scripture, everytime you use the term bible, everytime you use the term Trinity and everytime you accept the 27 books of the New testament you are adhereing to the authority of the Catholic Church." **is just such an unbelievably pompous and arrogant claim which wouldn’t be so bad if there was any truth to it at all. I believe in the bible because it is the WORD OF GOD not the CC. It is the WORDS OF JESUS. I have accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior in faith. I don’t need any church to validate that faith. I know that Jesus is the Son of God through faith. I don’t need any church to tell me so. Here is some more of Jn chapter 8

33They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

How are we made free? By continuing in the word of the CC? No!!! By continuing in the Words of Jesus.

38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
48Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
49Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
50And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
51Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Who is your father teach?

Yea, I’m sure that Jesus seemed pompous when He said," I am the way, the Truth and the Life." but He didn’t care because truth is truth. Who is my father? Let’s not be so sillly.

I know that Scripture contains the written Word of God. Jesus IS the Word of God and so we must see what Jesus did and taught. He never taught anyone to write anything down nor did He write anything Himself. There were many writings in the first century and many were influenced by gnostic teachings. Many writings were actually read in the early century worship (Mass) but later not seen as inspired so never included in the canon of Scripture.

I’m sorry but you are displaying an enormous amount of ignorance if you think that your bible came out of nowhere. You rant and rave about what I said but you give me no idea how the canonicity of Scripture was decided. You just blast out how much the Catholic Church is wrong but you never told me where the term bible or trinity or incarnation came from. Even the names of the books are not inspired and were included by the Church. It was the Church that maintained and painstakenly copied these manuscripts throughout the centuries of time.

Now, you can go all crazy on me and deny the Catholic Church’s claim to Scripture but please back it up with something other than it’s Jesus’ words. Of course it is and I have no problem with that. But please tell me how we know that the Gospel of Thomas does not belong in the bible and the other hundred or so writings that were excluded. Please help my pompous and arrogant attitude by educating me rather than just stomping your feet with a huge ,“IT ISN’T SO”. Show me a bit more intelligence and compassion might help as well. Now you quoted the Gospel of John. Tell me how I should know that John is indeed the inspired word of God. I know. Do you?

 

[teachccd]

In that perspective i agree with you. I guess I had never thought of it that way, because i only heard it in contexts of prideful defense. So in a humble attitude like one would say “My Lord” i would agree with you in that it is A Ok.

Well said

Thank you and God bless you…teachccd

 

[DerekD]

The same Holy Spirit that inspired the writers inspired the Church to acknowledge which writings were to be included in the canon. The Spirit continues to guide the Church today as Christ promised. Before he ascended He promised not to leave us orphans and sent the Spirit of Truth…God bless…teachccd

If that were true; your church would not have included the books that are with error, but a response to the charges against the church during the reformation, for example, praying to the dead, they hastily canonized books, by their own admission contain error. God is incapable of error, but men certainly are and the proof is in your Catholic Bible.

You cannot have it both ways; the Bible with error and the Bible without error; you must choose one over the other, which speaks volumes of your spiritual maturity or lack thereof IMO.

 

[DerekD]

Is this a surprise to you? It is not to me.

 

[DerekD]

Really guys? are you really having this childish argument? Do you think Christ would proud of either of you for the way you are “defending” him? doubtful.

The thing is, Catholics think they are right and the only true church of Christ.
Likewise, LDS think they are right and the only true church of Christ.

No matter who you are, if you REALLY believe you are in the church of Christ, do you really need to defend yourself against the church you think is “strange” or “apostate”? Besides, strange is such a subjective term.

All you who keep pointing fingers at faults of eachother’s religion trying to destroy the faith of eachother, i might venture to say are moved into speech by the devil and pride. If you have true faith, and confidence in your Savior, offer up onto the table why you have such strong conviction in your faith, and those that have ears to hear, will hear. And those who disagree because of their own opposing conviction, should be able to say, “that’s interesting, i disagree, but this is why I have faith in my religion.” I guarantee you all that if you will discuss Christ and His gospel in that manner of uplifting and edification, you will be able to walk away from this forum having felt the spirit.

I have faith that Christ is my savior. Whenever I read the scriptures of his atonement, and what he was sacrificed for me, i cannot deny the overwhelming burning in my heart that Christ did live a perfect life for me (us) and so was able to fulfill the atonement and redeem me from my sins. I know that Christ has redeemed me from the fall, and that I will be saved because i have been born again and strive to live my life as he would have me.

I don’t care if you have 13 million or 1.x billion members, that does not determine your salvation. I believe there will be many in every religion who think they will be saved and will be surprised to find themselves in eternal anquish because of their ignorance, pride, and laziness.

Jesus says in Matthew 7:21, “Not everyone who says to Me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father which is in heaven.”

Isn’t the church, the body of individuals, that has the gospel correct and whom Christ has received from the Father, the members of the one true church? Is there any other church besides that of the devil, which appear to be many?

 

[DerekD]

The book of Mormon claims inspiration as does the Quran. Without an authoritative Church how do you claim that the bible is indeed the inspired Word of God? Because it says so? Because you feel inspired by its contents? The Mormons believe that about their Book of Mormon. They refer to it as a “burning in the bosom”. You are so quick to dismiss the Church that wrote, acknowledged and maintianed the Word of God throughout the centuries of time. Everytime you read from Scripture, everytime you use the term bible, everytime you use the term Trinity and everytime you accept the 27 books of the New testament you are adhereing to the authority of the Catholic Church. Jesus gave us His Church and never wrote anything down nor did He command anyone to write anything down. It was the Church that first preached the Word and then wrote it down and then discerned through the hundreds of manuscripts as to which ones were inspired and then maintained them for you.

Now you can take the final product and dismiss its very source. Before you say that the Catholic Church fails in holding to the commandments and testimony of Christ give us back our bible…teachccd

Both the Catholic Church and the Mormon Church and the JW’s claim the same thing; that their church has authority from God; so who is right? Time makes no difference to God, so 1 day is like a thousand years; therefore the Catholic Church would be almost 2 and the other about 1-6 months as God may see it. So who has the divine authority and how do you know? You don’t; all of you accept that it is because the “church” said so. Jesus, Paul and Peter all had something to say about these “extra revelations”.

Bottom line is what do each of you teach concerning what the gospel is and how is one saved; is justification by faith alone as the Bible teaches or not? That is your litmus test in a nutshell.

 

[DerekD]

theCOURT:

Originally Posted by thecourt
In light of your view of original sin, consider this — because Adam and Eve partook of the fruit, we as their descendants inherit a fallen condition. Catholics and my church recognizes that, where we differ is how through the Atonement, Christ redeems us from our sins (that we commit – original sin or what we call the Fall differs only in that we profess one must be taught the distinction and baptized in his true church-- and our existence here in mortality, I will call a probationary state, when we are properly baptized by one holding the authority, if when we sin we have opportunity to repent and endure to the end.

So it, as you have questioned, is false how is profession doctrinally? I have not interest in a tradition created by man that said I must be accountable for Adam and Eve’s direct sin — there is the distinction for me when you speak of original sin and what I call the Fall.

DerekD:

Do you not belong to a church built upon a man named Joseph Smith? "Mormonism began in 1820 when a teen-aged boy in western New York named Joseph Smith was spurred by a Christian revival where he lived to pray to God for guidance as to which church was true. In answer to his prayers he was visited by God the Father and God the Son, two separate beings, who told him to join no church because all the churches at that time were false, and that he, Joseph, would bring forth the true church. This event is called “The First Vision.”

The only persons who claimed to have actually seen the gold plates were eleven close friends of Smith (many of them related to each other). Their testimonies are printed in the front of every copy of the Book of Mormon. No disinterested third party was ever allowed to examine them. They were retrieved by the angel at some unrecorded point. Most of the witnesses later abandoned Smith and left his movement. Smith then called them “liars.”

In 1828, eight years after he supposedly had been told by God himself to join no church, Smith applied for membership in a local Methodist church. Other members of his family had joined the Presbyterians.

Source
exmormon.org/tract2.htm

I noticed you ignored this post earlier; therefore I’m resubmitting for your review and comment.

 

[thecourt]

Both the Catholic Church and the Mormon Church and the JW’s claim the same thing; that their church has authority from God; so who is right? Time makes no difference to God, so 1 day is like a thousand years; therefore the Catholic Church would be almost 2 and the other about 1-6 months as God may see it. So who has the divine authority and how do you know? You don’t; all of you accept that it is because the “church” said so. Jesus, Paul and Peter all had something to say about these “extra revelations”.

Bottom line is what do each of you teach concerning what the gospel is and how is one saved; is justification by faith alone as the Bible teaches or not? That is your litmus test in a nutshell.

I submit, we are right because our leadership, who did not go one day and say I want to take something not for them to take, i.e. the priesthood, as the Catholic priesthood continues to do. Revelation, which Catholicism lacks, is a important characteristic of the true church. So if Catholicism is the true church, why no prophet receiving revelation?

 

[Dettingen]

Dear Friends,

In my last post, I lost my temper and I’m now writing to apologize. While I stand by my meaning, I am truly sorry for the way I expressed myself. I had hoped to be a force for understanding and conciliation. By expressing myself so harshly, I have failed to do as I would.

I deeply regret my intemperance and lack of charity. I’m going to withdraw from these forums for a time, in order to focus on controlling my temper. I recall that St. Francis said we should preach the Gospel at all times, using words when necessary. I’m going to work on becoming more like St. Francis.

In the meantime, I hope that you will all remember that I only spoke for myself and I hope you will forgive me.

While I am gone I shall continue to pray for you all.

God bless you and grant you peace,

Dettingen

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

This thread is now closed. Thanks to all who have participated.