What Bad Experiences you have had with Wicca?

[cheddarsox]

All sinful behavoir, more or less, has even weight as to keeping one from producing the fruits of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise there is nothing which one can not turn away from and find redemptiion and freedom. Anything that keeps ones heart away from God can be the killer.

What you interpret as sloppy (uncleanness)has to do moral and physical impurity; and luxury = lasiviousness/lustfulness.

The worst thing about paganisn though for people involved in it - they seem to dismiss eternity -

I read these posts, and while I know we live on the same planet, it is clear we inhabit different universes! That is just an observation. How one’s faith can completely alter their experience and understanding of life and everything it entails.

Concerning pagans and eternity, I tend to disagree. Most pagans I encounter very much believe in eternity. The folks in my faith, Pantheism, are pretty much what you see is what you get, but most other Pagan faiths have some belief in an afterlife and the destination of the “soul”. That sometimes takes on the form of reincarnation or joining the larger cosmic consciousness, but eternity is very real for most faiths that I know of.

 

[TOP]

I have some questions for Wiccan’s. What are Wicca belief’s about angels? And is there any alphabet/ rune texts besides Theban used in Wicca? Why Theban and other alphabets/ texts? What are their orgins? Thanks, Tim

 

[TOP]

Another question to Wiccan’s. Didn’t Aleister Crowley initiate Gerald Gardiner into the Ordo Templi Orientis in 1946 and the Gardiner borrowed “do what thou wilt” from Crowley to become part of the Wiccan Credo? Or was the Credo from Adriana Porter writings in 1910? These questions will come to the subject of the thread. Thank You ,Tim

 

[IanCorrigan]

I have some questions for Wiccan’s. What are Wicca belief’s about angels? And is there any alphabet/ rune texts besides Theban used in Wicca? Why Theban and other alphabets/ texts? What are their orgins? Thanks, Tim

Concerning ‘angels’, Wiccans and Pagans generallycatalog a number of kinds of non-human, non-deific spirits. An ‘angel’ is a messenger of the divine - any number of types of spirit might serve this role, from elementals to the shining beings sometimes called ‘fairies’. Since Pagans don’t, generally, conceive of the divine realm as containing warring factions of Good and Evil, we don’t think about some spirits as ‘angels’ and some as ‘demons’. Spirits, like humans, might do good or ill and their deeds might be good to some and ill to others, just like any deeds. Some spirits make themselves special allies and protectors of humans, the ‘guardian angel’ type, but even these might be of various kinds.

Wiccans sometimes use any number of ancient alphabets, including the norse runes, greek letters, and the various cyphers created in the medieval grimoires, including the so-called ‘theban’ script. None of these (except perhaps the runes, which have an overtly Pagan theological context) are anything more than fun window-dressing. They might serve to conceal certain secret portions of rituals, or be used to transition statements of intent into magical, psychologically evocative symbolism.

The Theban alphabet comes to us from the writings of Agrippa, I think, and other ‘magical alphabets’ come from medieval grimoires, such as the ‘Key of Solomon’. These instruction books of ritual magic generally teach the use of divine grace and power to command lesser spirits.

Generally, these alphabets have little importance in Wicca or Paganism - they are curious remnants of ancient systems. Some folks have a romantic attraction to them, but that’s as far as it goes.

Ian

 

[IanCorrigan]

Another question to Wiccan’s. Didn’t Aleister Crowley initiate Gerald Gardiner into the Ordo Templi Orientis in 1946 and the Gardiner borrowed “do what thou wilt” from Crowley to become part of the Wiccan Credo? Or was the Credo from Adriana Porter writings in 1910? These questions will come to the subject of the thread. Thank You ,Tim

‘Initiate’ might be an overstatement. Crowley issued Gardner a charter to establish a new OTO chapter, but Gardner never did anything with it. Instead he created (or edited) his new witchcraft. Gardner seems to have coined the phrase ‘harm none, and do as you will’, though the longer and more archaic version ‘an it harm none, do as ye will’ comes from Gwen Thompson, the alleged inheritor of Porter. Gardner probably did lift the phrase loosely from Crowley, though it lacks tthe mysticism of Crowley’s ideas in the simpler form given in Wicca.

I consider the Porter connection unproven, but it was certainly Gwen Thompson who provided the so-called ‘long rede’.

Personally I don’t consider Crowley a Satanist. He certainly was anti-Christian, but he intended to move humanity toward the divine.
Ian

 

[TOP]

‘Initiate’ might be an overstatement. Crowley issued Gardner a charter to establish a new OTO chapter, but Gardner never did anything with it. Instead he created (or edited) his new witchcraft. Gardner seems to have coined the phrase ‘harm none, and do as you will’, though the longer and more archaic version ‘an it harm none, do as ye will’ comes from Gwen Thompson, the alleged inheritor of Porter. Gardner probably did lift the phrase loosely from Crowley, though it lacks tthe mysticism of Crowley’s ideas in the simpler form given in Wicca.

I consider the Porter connection unproven, but it was certainly Gwen Thompson who provided the so-called ‘long rede’.

Personally I don’t consider Crowley a Satanist. He certainly was anti-Christian, but he intended to move humanity toward the divine.
Ian

Ok we will just call Crowley anti-christian then.
http://user.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/2006/ac/ac.jpg

 

[TOP]

My concern for the use of these runes is rooted in the beliefs and use’s of runes by the perpretators of the jewish holocaust, namely the Waffen SS. Arthurian legend, ritual magick and the Thule society’s role in the final solution is not well known. Before you say Himmler was a Catholic, remember Hilter himself commented about the blood of Christ on the cross. It’s is no wonder the occult goverment of the Third Reich eliminnated any other religion or group for that matter, the Golden Dawn included, that didn’t go with its plan of a god like super race with the theology based on the Thule society’s writings by Rosenberg.

I ask about angels because of the “invocation” of Archangels in western magick’s lesser banishing ritual. This leads me to think that their is some kind of belief in them. Here is the ritual.
I. The Qabalistic Cross

With wand or finger of the right hand touch the forehead and intone Ateh. Then touch the solar plexis and intone Malkuth. Then the right shoulder, intone Vegeburah, then the left and intone Vegedullah. Finally cross your arms over your breast and intone Le Orlahm Amen.

II. Inscribe the Circle

Walk around the space that you intend to be encompassed by the ritual, with your wand, athame, or finger “drawing” a circle as you go, starting at the East and going clockwise until you return to the East. There is no set circumference, but all participants and ritual items that you intend to use should be within this circle.

III. Inscribe the Pentagrams

In each of the four quarters starting with the East you should now inscribe the banishing pentagram of Earth. (see the pentagrams section for the correct way to draw). As each pentagram is completed you should pause and charge the pentagram with the Divine Name associated with that Quarter. East–YHWH (pronounced Ya ho Wah). South-- Adonai. West-- EHIHE (pronounced ee hee ay) North–AGLA (pronounced ah glah). Return to the East.

IV. Invoke the Archangels of the Four Quarters

Standing facing East in the form of Osiris Slain (feet together, head raised to the sky, arms spread wide) Say:

Before me stands Raphael

Behind me stands Gabriel

On my right hand Michael

On my left hand Auriel

For about me shines the pentagram

And above me shines the six-rayed star

V. Repeat the Qabalistic Cross

Notes: The Lesser Banishing should be done at the beginning of a ritual to clear the area for magickal workings and then again after to discharge the magickal force raised during a ritual. This ritual can be done anywhere, and is useful on the astral to “get rid of” unwanted visitors (ie elementals or other etheric beings you run into on the astral).

The visualizations that go with the ritual are: Qabalistic Cross-- a beam of energy entering your head and exiting your feet, and another crossing from hand to hand, your heart should be where the two beams cross and as they do a rose made out of light should bloom.

Circle–when you complete the circle a sheet of light should spring up.

Pentagrams-- each pentagram should flare as you draw it and then become intense and solid as you charge it with the Divine Name.

Archangels–as you name each archangel you should visualize him standing just behind the pentagram and spreading his wings so that your circle is completely surrounded–Raphael is dressed all in gold and carries a sword–Gabriel is dressed in blue and carries a cup–Michael is dressed in red and carries a wand–Auriel is dressed in green and carries a pentacle.

Again, from a Catholic’s perspective, this is a mockery of our belief’s and practice’s. Tim

 

[IanCorrigan]

**My concern for the use of these runes is rooted in the beliefs and use’s of runes by the perpretators of the jewish holocaust, namely the Waffen SS. Arthurian legend, ritual magick and the Thule society’s role in the final solution is not well known. **

In my opinion the role of the occult in nazism has been greatly exagerrated. A few top nazis were actively involved, but hitler himself had nothing but contempt for active occultism, and used germanic folk customs consciously only as a method of bolstering german ethnic identity.

The Armanen runes are a construct with only a little resemblance to the originals. They aren’t in general use in modern Paganism, which has used more reliable scholarship to pursue the Elder and Younger Futharks.

** I ask about angels because of the “invocation” of Archangels in western magick’s lesser banishing ritual. This leads me to think that their is some kind of belief in them.**

The Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram isn’t a Wiccan or Pagan ritual. It derives from the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, which from the outset drew on early-Christian-era hermeticism, medieval Christian occultism and Jewish qabalah. Some Wiccan covens probably teach the LBRP, but many, maybe most, view it as precisely too Christian in context to be easily melded with Pagan ways.

Some brands of Wicca do maintain some practices based on medieval and hermetic occult ritual, but the longer the movement persists the less common such things have become. They played no part at all in the original Gardnerian design.

**Again, from a Catholic’s perspective, this is a mockery of our belief’s and practice’s. **

Certainly no-one, including the creator of that ritual, intended to ‘mock’ Christian practices. The creators of the rite intended to find the deeper meanings in things like the Lord’s Prayer (which is the text for the opening of the LBRP), and bring the power of God into the practitioner by surrounding him with the Archangels. Hardly canonical, but totally free of ‘satanic’ intent.
Ian

 

[TOP]

Thank you for your courteous replies Ian. I know this thread has been all over the place so I end my part in it. I dabbled in, what I consider now to be the occult, when I was a young teen. I believe I have had to pay a price for that and have been told “that I had something following me” by someone. To review my life, it would almost seem acursed at times. I would not wish what I have been through on anyone and would do much to stop it, if possible. This chapter is from the book of Wisdom in the OT and expresses my feelings on the subject.

13:1. But all men are vain, in whom there is not the knowledge of God: and who by these good things that are seen, could not understand him that is, neither by attending to the works have acknowledged who was the workman:
Vani sunt autem omnes homines quibus non subest scientia Dei et de his quae videntur bona non potuerunt intellegere eum qui est neque operibus adtendentes agnoverunt quis esset artifex

13:2. But have imagined either the fire, or the wind, or the swift air, or the circle of the stars, or the great water, or the sun and moon, to be the gods that rule the world.
Sed aut ignem aut spiritum aut citatum aerem aut gyrum stellarum aut nimiam aquam aut solem et lunam rectores orbis terrarum deos putaverunt

13:3. With whose beauty, if they, being delighted, took them to be gods: let them know how much the Lord of them is more beautiful than they: for the first author of beauty made all those things.
Quorum si specie delectati deos putaverunt sciant quanto dominator eorum speciosior est speciei enim generator haec omnia constituit

13:4. Or if they admired their power, and their effects, let them understand by them, that he that made them, is mightier than they:
Aut si virtutem et opera eorum mirati sunt intellegant ab ipsis quoniam qui haec constituit fortior est illis

13:5. For by the greatness of the beauty, and of the creature, the creator of them may be seen, so as to be known thereby.
A magnitudine enim speciei et creaturae cognoscibiliter poterit horum creator videri

13:6. But yet as to these they are less to be blamed. For they perhaps err, seeking God, and desirous to find him.
Sed tamen adhuc in his minor est querella et hii enim fortassis errant Deum quaerentes et volentes invenire

13:7. For being conversant among his works, they search: and they are persuaded that the things are good which are seen.
Etenim cum in operibus illius conversentur inquirunt et persuasum habent quoniam bona sunt quae videntur

13:8. But then again they are not to be pardoned.
Iterum autem nec his debet ignosci

13:9. For if they were able to know so much as to make a judgment of the world: how did they not more easily find out the Lord thereof?
Si enim tantum potuerunt scire ut possent aestimare saeculum quomodo huius Dominum non facilius invenerunt

Thanks , Tim

 

[TOP]

You sound like the type of person who has written off Catholicism because of a bad experience with Fundamentalist Protestants.

But, I’m not. Tim

 

[Contarini]

Again, from a Catholic’s perspective, this is a mockery of our belief’s and practice’s. Tim

Well, so what? From the Jewish perspective, Christian use of the Old Testament is a mockery. Religions draw from each other and build on each other, and we just have to live with that. Myself, I find it fascinating.

Edwin