What "belief" in Jesus?

[JRKH]

is necessary to not be “damned”? What is sufficient?

For example; belief that he is the second god of the Trinity, belief he is one with God (modalism), belief that he is a great teacher, belief that he is just a prophet, belief that he is the messiah only ???

where is the line drawn?

Thankyou

I haven’t read all the responses yet, but something occurred to me, - a vision of sorts - that I want to share before it gets away.

Perhaps what has occurred is this:
Jesus, knowing that you have rejected “him”, this “image of him” that you have described in the past, has stepped behind the Father. Out of sight, so to say.
Now you have this beautiful relationship the the Father, but still feel somehow that you have to make peace, or come to some understanding with Jesus.
This may be the Father trying to reconcile you with your brother Jesus.

Honestly, I wouldn’t be too concerned with what we tell you here on the boards. Listen to your Father. Let Him reveal Jesus to you anew. Once you’ve accepted that Jesus is connected with the Father, I believe He will lead you and Jesus to a good understanding.

Hope this helps
James

 

[reen12]

quote:JRKH

Perhaps what has occurred is this:
Jesus, knowing that you have rejected “him”, this “image of him” that you have described in the past, has stepped behind the Father. Out of sight, so to say.
Now you have this beautiful relationship the the Father, but still feel somehow that you have to make peace, or come to some understanding with Jesus.
This may be the Father trying to reconcile you with your brother Jesus.

Precisely. If Jesus has been “presented” to you as someone you wouldn’t want to go near to, then, yes - being able to turn to the Father is, I think, a matter of grace given.

quote:JRKH

…this “image of him” that you have described in the past, has stepped behind the Father…

That is a wonderful description of this reality, I think. In fact, it is one of the most intelligent observations that I have come upon on CAF.

The only point in which I would differ is this. This relating soley to the Father may last a lifetime. God is in no hurry. He knows what is possible for a human being and that which is not possible. If a dreadful caricature of Jesus was presented, sometimes a human being relates to the Father lifelong. I know. I am one such individual. Thank you for sharing your insight, JRKH.

reen12

 

[Belle10]

is necessary to not be “damned”? What is sufficient?

For example; belief that he is the second god of the Trinity, belief he is one with God (modalism), belief that he is a great teacher, belief that he is just a prophet, belief that he is the messiah only ???

where is the line drawn?

Thankyou

The simple answer: To have eternal life with God in heaven (and not be damned for eternity in hell) you (all of us) must accept the gift of Jesus’ love and salvation from the cross. Recognition and acceptance of this gift, acknowledging and claiming Jesus as our Savior, is necessary. Once you do this, you can grow closer to Jesus through the holy sacraments in the Catholic Church.

Someone wisely posted that belief is not enough – you must have faith. Even the devil and all his demons believe in God, but they reject His goodness.

I’ve read many of your posts, and I again urge you to go for counseling, perhaps with a Catholic counselor and a priest. You can find a lot of answers and compassion here, but it appears you would really benefit more from real life assistance than strictly message board help with your many issues/questions. :hug1:

 

[Tietjen]

The only point in which I would differ is this. This relating soley to the Father may last a lifetime. God is in no hurry. He knows what is possible for a human being and that which is not possible. If a dreadful caricature of Jesus was presented, sometimes a human being relates to the Father lifelong. I know. I am one such individual. Thank you for sharing your insight, JRKH.

My concern with this is what if the individual never does accept Jesus Christ but clings solely to the Father. When they reach the end of their life in this state of denying/rejecting Christ (though embracing the Father) what then? Correct me if I am wrong, but one only has until they die to enter into a relationship with Jesus Christ. While I can appreciate that you may wish to comfort gal (the OP), I would caution both you and her about being satisfied with a attempting a singular relationship with the Father while at the same time rejecting the Son.

 

[JRKH]

My concern with this is what if the individual never does accept Jesus Christ but clings solely to the Father.

Then the Father will protect them.
Do you believe that a person who has commited themselves to worshiping the father, and submitting to his guidance without “accepting” Jesus will be damned?

When they reach the end of their life in this state of denying/rejecting Christ (though embracing the Father) what then? Correct me if I am wrong, but one only has until they die to enter into a relationship with Jesus Christ.

Then God will judge them as He will judge us all, as individuals.
Remember that The Father and Jesus are one. Therefore if one accepts the Father-God, one automatically accepts the Son-God.
If one has issues, questions, concerns about their faith, it’s practices, how things are presented, etc. God will help us sort them out.

While I can appreciate that you may wish to comfort gal (the OP), I would caution both you and her about being satisfied with a attempting a singular relationship with the Father while at the same time rejecting the Son.

Thousands of Jews in the Old Testiment did just that, and we know that at least, Moses and Elias weren’t condemed for such a relationship.
U-Gal is on a difficult journey. God is leading her. We try to give her the best advise we can, calling upon our own experience. We’ll just have to allow the HS to work here.

Peace
James

 

[Belle10]

Thousands of Jews in the Old Testiment did just that, and we know that at least, Moses and Elias weren’t condemed for such a relationship.

This is a very interesting conversation. However, to the point above, I would submit that they weren’t condemned because Jesus had not yet come to save the world…therefore they couldn’t reject Him. Make sense?

U-Gal is on a difficult journey. God is leading her. We try to give her the best advise we can, calling upon our own experience. We’ll just have to allow the HS to work here.

Peace
James

I agree – prayers for you Gal (you’re beautiful!) and for all those trying to help you. :grouphug:

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by JRKH
Thousands of Jews in the Old Testiment did just that, and we know that at least, Moses and Elias weren’t condemed for such a relationship.

 

[Belle10]

Of course this is true.
But it is equally true that, if a completely false and distorted Jesus is presented to someone, then rejection of this false “jesus” is not a rejection of the God-Jesus.

Peace
James

This is an obvious point.

If Gal wants to know the real Jesus , she should not rely solely on strangers on this forum (well-intentioned though we are) but she should also definitely speak with a priest.

 

[reen12]

quote: Tietjen

My concern with this is what if the individual never does accept Jesus Christ but clings solely to the Father. When they reach the end of their life in this state of denying/rejecting Christ (though embracing the Father) what then? Correct me if I am wrong, but one only has until they die to enter into a relationship with Jesus Christ. While I can appreciate that you may wish to comfort gal (the OP), I would caution both you and her about being satisfied with a attempting a singular relationship with the Father while at the same time rejecting the Son.

“Rejecting” implies the emotional capacity - to “accept.”

If one takes the position that somehow accepting Jesus
is the *sine qua non *of salvation, that makes no
room, whatever, for those who were emotionally
devastated by the “Jesus” they were presented with.

I often find that - once in the throes of Catholic theology -
a ‘mechanisitic’ attitude seems to develop. If the God
Who created me allowed me to become so ill that
the mere thought of relating to Jesus deepens that illness,
then, no - God makes His own arrangements for those so affected.

God did not cause that caricature of His Son to be offfered,
but He did permit same - as well as the lifelong emotional damage
that walked hand in hand with such “catechesis.”

And what of the fact that 2 of 7 people on the planet
haven’t a clue that Jesus walked the earth, 20 centuries ago?
Theology then twists itself into pretzel shape - trying
to ‘cover’ the ‘case’ of their salvation.
To me, it ends up making Christianity sound like
a board game. Don’t accept Jesus?

-Do not pass go.
-Do not collect 200 indulgences
-Go directly to infernal regions

I truly do try to understand this mode of thought.

I trust God to care for me - and I appreciate
your concern for my salvation.

It is a big, wide world out there. God cares for
each human being. And 5 billion people, extant,
have never even been presented with the fact that
Jesus walked the earth, 20 centuries ago.

Any theology that worries about the salvation of others who
have never even heard of their God - much less a holy trinity -
inspires me to take said theology with a large grain of salt.

God will bring those human beings home to Him one day,
and without our "help’ - or our doctrinal constructs.

God is far more merciful than doctrine would have us believe.

reen12 :coffeeread:

 

[Cathryn]

It is not what you believe or know, but “who” you know. This is eternal life:

“Jesus, who said that he had come so that we might have life and have it in its fullness, in abundance (cf. Jn 10:10), has also explained to us what “life” means: “this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent” (Jn 17:3). Life in its true sense is not something we have exclusively in or from ourselves: it is a relationship. **And life in its totality is a relationship with him who is the source of life. If we are in relation with him who does not die, who is Life itself and Love itself, then we are in life. **Then we “live”.
…….‘Christ died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died’ (cf. 2 Cor 5:15)”[21]. Christ died for all. To live for him means allowing oneself to be drawn into his being for others.” Pope Benedict XVI

God Bless you.

 

[jimmy]

is necessary to not be “damned”? What is sufficient?

For example; belief that he is the second god of the Trinity, belief he is one with God (modalism), belief that he is a great teacher, belief that he is just a prophet, belief that he is the messiah only ???

where is the line drawn?

Thankyou

THere is no line. We must seek perfect communion with God.

 

[reen12]

quote: Cathryn

It is not what you believe or know, but “who” you know. This is eternal life:

“Jesus, who said that he had come so that we might have life and have it in its fullness, in abundance (cf. Jn 10:10), has also explained to us what “life” means: “this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent” (Jn 17:3). Life in its true sense is not something we have exclusively in or from ourselves: it is a relationship. **And life in its totality is a relationship with him who is the source of life. If we are in relation with him who does not die, who is Life itself and Love itself, then we are in life. **Then we “live”.
…….‘Christ died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died’ (cf. 2 Cor 5:15)”[21]. Christ died for all. To live for him means allowing oneself to be drawn into his being for others.” Pope Benedict XVI

quote: Cathryn

This is eternal life:

This is eternal life - for those who accept the doctrines of the Christian faith - with further commentary, on same, by the current occupant of the chair of Peter.

Accepting this particular set of beliefs, includes - of necessity - the acceptance of the Christian scriptures.

That over 2 billion people in our day accept that God became incarnate, in the Person of Jesus, is a simple fact. If a given individual wishes to believe the words of the Christian scriptures,
as well as the doctrines that flow -from either scripture or tradition - that’s fine.

However, reference to “God said…” is their belief.

Buddhist monks chant the sutras - their scriptures. For a Buddhist, reference to “Buddha said…” is highly revered -by those who embrace Buddhism.

And while I think it of interest to have some small knowledge of that which Siddhārtha Gautama said, I do not accept the words or the teachings of the Buddha - as necessarily indicative of spiritual reality - anymore than I credit the words of Jesus -
as to His relationship with Deity - nor to His claim as to His role in eternal salvation - as necessarily constituitive of reality.

If one wishes to present the thoughts of Christendom - as to eternal salvation - that’s surely understandable… A bit of a preface might not come amiss, however…e.g.:

“The following is Christian belief - as to eternal life:”

Then we would know where we are. After that, we could sort out the variations in beliefs -held by members of the various denominations of the Christian faith. A Herculean enterprise, in itself.

reen12 :coffeeread:

 

[fhansen]

is necessary to not be “damned”? What is sufficient?

For example; belief that he is the second god of the Trinity, belief he is one with God (modalism), belief that he is a great teacher, belief that he is just a prophet, belief that he is the messiah only ???

where is the line drawn?

Thankyou

We are to love God with our whole heart, mind, soul, and strength- and our neighbor as ourselves. But this is not so easy and that is why we believe that we need grace-God’s help- to accomplish this. And we believe that this grace was won by Jesus. And that if someone is saved without knowing Him it will still be due to Him.

 

[JRKH]

If one wishes to present the thoughts of Christendom - as to eternal salvation - that’s surely understandable… A bit of a preface might not come amiss, however…e.g.:

"The following is Christian belief - as to eternal life:"

Then we would know where we are. After that, we could sort out the variations in beliefs -held by members of the various denominations of the Christian faith. A Herculean enterprise, in itself.

reen12 :coffeeread:

reen12,
With all due respect to your generally well constructed and thought provoking posts, You need to remember that this is a Catholic Board. It really isn’t necessary to preface a statement as you suggest.
If this were a general “deity” type board or a non-christian board, your request makes sense. Less so here.

Having said that I will re-iterate that I do enjoy your posts.

Peace
James

 

[reen12]

quote:

reen12,
With all due respect to your generally well constructed and thought provoking posts,
You need to remember that this is a Catholic Board. It really isn’t necessary to preface a statement as you suggest.
If this were a general “deity” type board or a non-christian board, your request makes sense. Less so here.

Having said that I will re-iterate that I do enjoy your posts.

Peace
James

I did think of that, and went forward, anyway.

Am not accustomed to encountering rigorous adherence to
the dictates of the Square of Opposition, as it pertains to
the explication of the tenets of religious belief.

Primarily, I was thinking of the occassional wretch that I encounter, who is in my face about “Jesus saves,” or “We’ve got the true faith” - usually when I am doing something pleasant - which then turns to ashes. I even ran into one such individual at a craft store one day.
given them away, to lift the hearts of the lonely or the ill.]*
I have no devotion, whatsoever, to the mother of Jesus, but I
knew that others do. That’s what I was doing in a craft store.
I ran into a "sola scriptura, sola fides, sola gratia" believer -
and found myself in the incredible position of being thought
a Catholic - who was being given a scornful look because
I wasn’t making crosses, or zeroing in solely on Jesus.
I told the woman that I did make crucifixes as well - which
ended up being sent overseas. This was met with another
scornful look.] If it keeps up, I may have a two for one sale
on frosty looks.

To the OP I say, God told us, in the Hebrew scriptures:

Can a mother forget her infant, be without tenderness for the child of her womb? Even should she forget, I will never forget you.
See? I have written your name on the palm of My hand.
Isaiah 49:15-16

What you do hold - or do not hold, about Jesus of Nazareth - is a matter of God’s grace. One may rest peacefully in the thought of these realities:
God is in heaven. God loves me. He will lead me to where I need to be. God needs no help from me, in running the universe. He relates to each of us in our unique need.

Of course I should have said - in keeping with my own exhortation
“This is the reality of the love of God, according to me.”

reen12

 

[Tietjen]

Then the Father will protect them.
Do you believe that a person who has commited themselves to worshiping the father, and submitting to his guidance without “accepting” Jesus will be damned?

I believe that the person who rejects Christ after having known the Truth and dies without coming back to Christ MAY very well be lost. I, however, am not God and therefore will not judge another’s eternal destination. Perhaps the Bible is wrong… perhaps Jesus Christ ISN’T the only way unto salvation; I seriously doubt it though.

Then God will judge them as He will judge us all, as individuals. Remember that The Father and Jesus are one. Therefore if one accepts the Father-God, one automatically accepts the Son-God.

So, let me get this straight. You are saying that we Catholics can deny the Trinity and choose to believe there are one or perhaps two Persons instead of three? I want to make sure that I am understanding you clearly. The OP says that she does not believe that Christ is God. When she throws Christ out, she is throwing out what Christ accomplished on the cross for her (a normal man could not accomplish salvation).

If one has issues, questions, concerns about their faith, it’s practices, how things are presented, etc. God will help us sort them out.

God has already put the Church in place to do just that. The OP (and perhaps anyone else who rejects the divinity of Christ) should seek answers from the Church. At the very least, I am sure that the Church will not support denying the Holy Trinity or suggesting that it will be all right to reject the Son of God.

Thousands of Jews in the Old Testiment did just that, and we know that at least, Moses and Elias weren’t condemed for such a relationship.

Apples and oranges. As another poster has pointed out, Moses and the OT prophets didn’t know Jesus Christ since He hadn’t entered the World yet. They instead lived under the law in the hope of salvation. Christ fulfilled the law, we no longer live under the law… it’s not an option.

U-Gal is on a difficult journey. God is leading her. We try to give her the best advise we can, calling upon our own experience. We’ll just have to allow the HS to work here.

Yes, we will. However, let us at least tell her the truth and help plant the seeds. You cannot remove the Son of God from the salvation equation. If the OP was introduced to something other than Christ and now associates that with Christ, then she needs to seek assistance in finding the real Christ. She should not simply be patted on the head, told, “there there little one, it will be alright,” and left ignorant of the Son of God. You do her no favor by treating her thusly.

 

[Tietjen]

Of course this is true.
But it is equally true that, if a completely false and distorted Jesus is presented to someone, then rejection of this false “jesus” is not a rejection of the God-Jesus.

True, but there are two concerns here. First, you are assuming that the OP was presented with a “false and distorted Jesus.” The OP has said that she has rejected Christ as being God because He never answered her prayers. He was “too busy” as she puts it. Does this qualify as a “false and distorted Jesus?” Perhaps, the prayers were answered and the OP simply didn’t hear (or accept) the answers. On the other hand, perhaps the prayers were not answered yet, but that does not mean they will never be (look at St. Augustine’s mother… she prayed for the conversion of her son for years!) God works on His timeline, not always in sync with ours.
Secondly, even if the OP was introduced to a “false and distorted Jesus” it does not negate our obligation of telling her the truth concerning the real Jesus. Telling her it’s okay to avoid Jesus is NOT the gospel message folks.

 

[Tietjen]

Any theology that worries about the salvation of others who
have never even heard of their God - much less a holy trinity -
inspires me to take said theology with a large grain of salt.

God will bring those human beings home to Him one day,
and without our "help’ - or our doctrinal constructs.

God is far more merciful than doctrine would have us believe.

reen12 :coffeeread:

I apologize reen12, I assumed that you shared the Catholic faith. I see that you are “still working on it” as you put it in your profile. Catholics believe in the Bible, and we are commanded in the Bible to go forth and preach the Gospel by our Lord. This would contradict your belief of letting God do it without our help.

I’m actually breathing a sigh of relief now. I assumed that this whole time I was reading posts from Catholics. I should have checked profiles instead of becoming more and more frustrated at the lack of Catholic understanding. God bless all and good night.

 

[JRKH]

Tietjen,
Let me try to address some of your concerns.

I believe that the person who rejects Christ after having known the Truth and dies without coming back to Christ MAY very well be lost. I, however, am not God and therefore will not judge another’s eternal destination. Perhaps the Bible is wrong… perhaps Jesus Christ ISN’T the only way unto salvation; I seriously doubt it though.

There can be different ways of looking at the “Way”. Most automatically associate it with the name and person of Jesus, who is the Christ.
However, John tells us that What came to us is “The Word” made flesh, so The Word is The Way. What is that Word? It is the Word of God written on our hearts. Thus it can be said that, "No one comes to the Father but through me (The Word)
Jesus (The Flesh) is the perfect example of faith lived and the perfect sacrifice that restored us to the Father. Christ (The Spirit) is the perfect embodiment of the HS.

I trust this is perfectly obtuse.

So, let me get this straight. You are saying that we Catholics can deny the Trinity and choose to believe there are one or perhaps two Persons instead of three? I want to make sure that I am understanding you clearly. The OP says that she does not believe that Christ is God. When she throws Christ out, she is throwing out what Christ accomplished on the cross for her (a normal man could not accomplish salvation).

We, as Catholics, cannot deny the Trinity since that is a basic doctrine of our faith.
The OP is struggling with her faith in general and we need to be careful in how we approach helping her.
You say that she is rejecting Christ, but in fact she never mentions Christ. She is rejecting “Jesus”. You say, but Jesus is the Christ. She would not agree with this. So first it is important to understand what it is that she is rejecting so that we can properly help her.

God has already put the Church in place to do just that. The OP (and perhaps anyone else who rejects the divinity of Christ) should seek answers from the Church. At the very least, I am sure that the Church will not support denying the Holy Trinity or suggesting that it will be all right to reject the Son of God.

Except that, in this case, the Church is part of the problem. Her “Church” experience has helped to lead to and re-enforce her negative perception of Jesus.

Apples and oranges. As another poster has pointed out, Moses and the OT prophets didn’t know Jesus Christ since He hadn’t entered the World yet. They instead lived under the law in the hope of salvation. Christ fulfilled the law, we no longer live under the law… it’s not an option.

Yea - I knew it when I posted it. but you still must admit that millions of people have lived and continue to live without ever hearing the fullness of Catholicism. Millions of others struggle daily with trying to understand what has been presented to them. We must trust all of these, as well as ourselves to God’s guidance and mercy.

Yes, we will. However, let us at least tell her the truth and help plant the seeds.

There can be no doubt that she will receive the full range of responses from this board.

You cannot remove the Son of God from the salvation equation. If the OP was introduced to something other than Christ and now associates that with Christ, then she needs to seek assistance in finding the real Christ. She should not simply be patted on the head, told, “there there little one, it will be alright,” and left ignorant of the Son of God. You do her no favor by treating her thusly.

I basically agree with what you say here. However, achieving that fullness of truth generally doesn’t happen over night. Also, U-Gal has posted a numbe of threads here over the last several months addresing various aspects of her journey. Those threads make interesting reading. I am trying to take these things into consideration in my responses.

As a deputy you may find yourself in a difficult situation where you must try to talk someone out of doing themselves harm. In such a case, the primary goal is not to minister to the person or to council the person, it is to comfort the person so you can get them to safety.

We have a similar case here, where U-Gal is working her way toward the fullness of Truth. God seems to have her in hand and is guiding her. As we try to help her we want to make sure that we do not come across so dogmatic that we wind up driving her away.

Yours in Christ
James

 

[reen12]

I think that it might also assist the OP, if we were to glance up from our theology texts - long enough to consult the images that God Himself provides in the Scriptures. The Good Shepherd, the Divine Physician
“I come not for the well. The well have no need of a physician.”

I find that when the "well’ get rolling, I step out of the way.

In short, for those who are struggling to find Jesus, one occassionaly thinks of the saying “You can always tell those who are being done good to, by the haggard expressions on their faces.” :coffeeread:

God saves. And if it is not clear to those who become perplexed
as to “how” God saves, in a given instance -

“It’s all here, in Holy Writ. This is how God said He’d save,”

perhaps God will do such individuals the courtesy of explaining
just how He went about saving a heart, a soul and a mind, in a
given instance.

Sometimes, the ‘cookbook’ approach becomes akin to a tornado -
and does God opt, once in a while, for a soft breeze?

“A bruised reed He will not break, and a smouldering wick He will not snuff out…” Isaiah 42:3

reen12