What beliefs are required to be Catholic

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ella03 said:
Why would God tell them? Isn’t the whole point of intercession to speak to the Saint so that they can pass it on to God, so to speak. If God already knows your prayer why would he need anyone elses help?
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Ah, now you touch on the very essence of God. He needs nothing, certainly nothing from us. And yet through his unending and unbounded love, he allows us the gift, the wonderful gift, of joining with him in his saving work. If he allows us this gift on earth, would he not also allow it to those in heaven? Remember, he has no need of his angels either, but he grants them the gift of aiding in his work.

What are the two commandments of God? To love God and to love our neighbor. Are the saints in heaven absolved of the second? Do you love the saints? Do you think the saints love you? Would God deny those who remained faithful of the gift of continuing to love those on earth by praying for them?

As to whether the saints can hear you, read Revelation again. In heaven can be heard the prayers of every creature in heaven, on earth and under the earth.
 
ella03 said:
That’s actually the crux of the problem I have with intercessory prayer. There are NT Biblical passages that state quite clearly that there are no intermediaries between God and man except Christ. And the Bible passages that Catholics have offered me to prove that intercessory prayer is OK are rather nebulous. So I tend to interpret the not so clear in light of the clear. Since the Bible can not contradict itself, if the Apostles taught that Christ is the only intermediary between man and God, then all Biblical passages must teach the same thing - even if they appear to say something else.

My question actually wasn’t “what can I believe” - it is “what beliefs are needed to truly be Catholic”.
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Jesus is the only one who could die for our sins. Nobody is claiming that the Saints are dying for our sins. Only that they are praying for us, in exactly the same way that you pray for your friends and family members.

But if the Saints (who have been perfected and are in Heaven) aren’t allowed to do this because Christ is the only one who is allowed to pray for us, then how is it that we, who are not yet perfected, allowed to pray for each other? :confused:
 
mskejj said:
Rev 5:6-8 “And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth; and he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne. And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures, and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bows full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints; …”

The Lamb is Jesus and the one on the throne is God…Jesus is our mediator. The 24 Elders which represents the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 Apostles present prayers to him from the saints. The rising smoke of the incense is a visible sign of prayers ascending to God (Ps 141:2). The saints in heaven mediate the praises and petitions of the saints on earth. (Rev 8:3)…“And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne.”
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I’m aware of these passages, but again, the Bible can not contradict itself. The less clear passages (as much of Revelation is) must have the same meaning as the clearer passages. Since there are NT scriptures that state clearly that there are NO intermediaries between God and man except Christ, then clearly these passages in Rev must agree with that.

Just because a creature in heaven is holding a bowl of prayers and offering them to God it does not automatically follow that they know the contents of the prayers.
 
ella03 said:
I can believe that Mary would have to be cleansed of sin in order for Jesus to live in her womb until birth, but there is no reason that she would have to be born sinless.

Romans is clear that all men sin.
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And yet what sin has a newborn baby committed?
If Mary had to be born sinless to carry a sinless child, then it stands to reason that Mary’s mother would also have to be sinless, as would her mother before her…etc.
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Nobody said she HAD to be born sinless. God has revealed that she was born (and conceived) sinless. It is simply our task to meditate on why he made that choice.
Plus it seems to me that Jesus having a flawed, truly human (just like the rest of us) mother is a necessary part of his mission for our salvation. If both his mother and his father are both truly perfect , then he could not be what the Church teaches he is (truly human & truly divine) You can’t inherit from your parents what they don’t possess. If Mary didn’t posses true humanity then Jesus could not be “truly human” - he could only be “truly divine”
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Oh my! You think sinful man is “truly human”? You think we are more human than Adam and Eve? In that case, you must think we are more human than Jesus as well. Is Jesus fully divine but only sorta human?

We (humanity) are fallen. We have lost something that we once had. We are less than we once were. We were fully human as God created first created us, and are now less than fully human. It is our destiny, should we choose it, to regain our full humanity in complete union with God.
 
sdegutis said:
Nowhere in the Bible does it say Mary sinned. .
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Actually it does. It states clearly that ALL humans sins. Christ alone was sinless according to the Bible. If Mary is a member of the human race then she sins. So if she doesn’t sin then she is not human.
 
ella03 said:
I can believe that Mary would have to be cleansed of sin in order for Jesus to live in her womb until birth, but there is no reason that she would have to be born sinless.

Romans is clear that all men sin. For Mary to be sinless from birth than Mary is in essence a different type of human being then the rest of us. Something that just has no Biblical basis at all.

If Mary had to be born sinless to carry a sinless child, then it stands to reason that Mary’s mother would also have to be sinless, as would her mother before her…etc.

Plus it seems to me that Jesus having a flawed, truly human (just like the rest of us) mother is a necessary part of his mission for our salvation. If both his mother and his father are both truly perfect , then he could not be what the Church teaches he is (truly human & truly divine) You can’t inherit from your parents what they don’t possess. If Mary didn’t posses true humanity then Jesus could not be “truly human” - he could only be “truly divine”
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Actually, the opposite is true. We can only become truly human when we are without sin. Therefore, if Mary had been a sinful woman, or if she had committed even one small venial sin in her childhood at some point, then she would not have been fully human, and would not have had a fully human nature to pass on to Jesus.

And you are right - parents cannot give to their children what they do not possess - so Mary had to be fully human (that is to say, without sin of any kind) in order to pass that on to Jesus.

We, on the other hand, receive an imperfect humanity from our parents, because of the sin of Adam, and we can only be completed or perfected in Christ.

But sin is not an essential characteristic of humanity, and in fact, it detracts from it. The more sin we commit, the less human we become.
 
ella03 said:
That’s actually the crux of the problem I have with intercessory prayer. There are NT Biblical passages that state quite clearly that there are no intermediaries between God and man except Christ. And the Bible passages that Catholics have offered me to prove that intercessory prayer is OK are rather nebulous. So I tend to interpret the not so clear in light of the clear. Since the Bible can not contradict itself, if the Apostles taught that Christ is the only intermediary between man and God, then all Biblical passages must teach the same thing - even if they appear to say something else.

My question actually wasn’t “what can I believe” - it is “what beliefs are needed to truly be Catholic”.
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Jesus Christ is truly the only mediator to God.
You want to go to heaven–>Jesus’s teachings–>heaven with God.
That is what is taught by the catholic church. But there’s a difference in intercession of prayers.
You are in need of help–>your friends pray for you to God–> God helps you.
This is also taught in the bible.
Now, along those same lines…
You pray for intercession from those in heaven–>they hear your prayers from heaven–> they then offer them to God.
–This is taken from a website the divine,ercy. Org
  1. There are a number of Scripture passages which directly or indirectly relate to our first question:
    • Hebrews 11:1-12:1 finishes “Seeing we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses [in other words, the heroes and martyrs of the faith from ages past], let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us.” Thus, the heroes and martyrs are a good example for us, and surround us like spectators at a running race — therefore, obviously, they know about us and can see our struggles from heaven.
    • James 5:16-18: 'The prayer of the good man has powerful effect." In other words, the most powerful intercessors in the Church are those most advanced in holiness. And who is more advanced in holiness than a soul who is already fully sanctified and in heaven?
    • Revelation 5:8; 8:3-4: “In heaven the elders and angels offer up the prayers of the saints [on earth] as incense before the throne of God.” In this passage it is important to note that the New Testament uses the word “saint” of every baptized Christian, not because we are all perfectly holy, but because we have all at least received the gift of the Holy Spirit. So this passage implies that the angels and elders (holy Christian leaders now in heaven) hear the prayers of every Christian on earth, and join their prayer now with ours.
 
ella03 said:
Actually it does. It states clearly that ALL humans sins. Christ alone was sinless according to the Bible. If Mary is a member of the human race then she sins. So if she doesn’t sin then she is not human.
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This is ridiculous. Were Adam and Eve not human beings yet, then, before they sinned? :confused:

When St. Paul wrote the Letter to the Romans, he knew that there was no member of his audience who was not a sinner, or born into sin. He was not thinking of Mary, or Jesus, or baptized persons who don’t have the use of reason (and are thus incapable of committing sin), or anyone else who is genuinely without sin, since that’s not who he was writing to.
 
snarflemike said:
Ah, now you touch on the very essence of God. He needs nothing, certainly nothing from us. And yet through his unending and unbounded love, he allows us the gift, the wonderful gift, of joining with him in his saving work. If he allows us this gift on earth, would he not also allow it to those in heaven? Remember, he has no need of his angels either, but he grants them the gift of aiding in his work.

What are the two commandments of God? To love God and to love our neighbor. Are the saints in heaven absolved of the second? Do you love the saints? Do you think the saints love you? Would God deny those who remained faithful of the gift of continuing to love those on earth by praying for them?

As to whether the saints can hear you, read Revelation again. In heaven can be heard the prayers of every creature in heaven, on earth and under the earth.
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Not at all, I do believe that the saints in heaven love us and pray for us. But not that they can hear us pray to them.
 
jmcrae said:
Jesus is the only one who could die for our sins. Nobody is claiming that the Saints are dying for our sins. Only that they are praying for us, in exactly the same way that you pray for your friends and family members.

But if the Saints (who have been perfected and are in Heaven) aren’t allowed to do this because Christ is the only one who is allowed to pray for us, then how is it that we, who are not yet perfected, allowed to pray for each other? :confused:
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I do believe that the saints pray for us. But not that they can hear our prayers.
 
Also might I add, if your thinking of Catholicism because there the one true church and she is what she claims to be, then the Holy Spirit guided her into truth, and these truths are the the additional teachings Christ told the apostles about.
 
Thanks to everyone for their (name removed by moderator)ut. But I am now bowing out since this has gotten completely off track. I only wanted to know what beliefs the Church required for membership and that question has been answered (all). If that’s true then returning to the Church isn’t possible for me. I’ve reached this stage in my life by a long search for God and the truth and truly believe that some of the RCC teachings are not in line with Biblical teaching but are later human additions.

I was hoping that my question wouldn’t start a long string of posts of people trying to convince me I was wrong and me trying to convince them I was right. But it did become that. Which was never my intention.
 
ella03 said:
Thanks to everyone for their (name removed by moderator)ut. But I am now bowing out since this has gotten completely off track. I only wanted to know what beliefs the Church required for membership and that question has been answered (all). If that’s true then returning to the Church isn’t possible for me. I’ve reached this stage in my life by a long search for God and the truth and truly believe that some of the RCC teachings are not in line with Biblical teaching but are later human additions.
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It is because all that the Church teaches comes from God, and God is not capable of telling lies.
 
ella03 said:
Actually it does. It states clearly that ALL humans sins. Christ alone was sinless according to the Bible. If Mary is a member of the human race then she sins. So if she doesn’t sin then she is not human.
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When it says “all have sinned” obviously it doesn’t mean “every single person” because Jesus was a person and He didn’t sin. By looking at the context, it’s easy to see that it means all without discrimination or distinction, that is, both Jews and Gentiles are guilty, and Jews aren’t exempt from guilt because of their privileged status in the history of salvation. So this verse doesn’t refute the sinlessness of Mary at all.
 
ella03 said:
some of the RCC teachings are not in line with Biblical teaching but are later human additions.
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Nope, none of the Church’s teachings are later human additions. However, some of them were not questioned until much later, so for a long time they didn’t have to be written down explicitly (although often they were alluded to in Scripture and other extra-biblical writings). Examples are Purgatory and the Immaculate Conception.
 
ella03 said:
That some of the RCC teachings are not in line with Biblical teaching but are later human additions.
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The sinlessness of Mary isn´t one of them (if there are any ‘later human additions’ at all).
 
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