What brings non-Catholics to CAF?

[TarkanAttila]

I can’t join for two major reasons.

Secondly I cannot accept the Church’s often terrible historical treatment of Jews and Muslims.

Ad hominem attack. It’s OK, ad hominems are the bread and butter of “argument” these days. Probably just an impulse.

But please, do not confuse individual Catholics’ behaviour with the things the Catholic Church teaches. Faith knows the Apostles nor their successors never taught persecution was righteous (even if sometimes their actions said the opposite). Eck, Peter said rightly he ought to have gone to defend and even die with Jesus, and later went to deny he even knew Jesus thrice times.

We all have blood on our hands. The question is: are the teachings correct?

Firstly, there are some major theological questions I have about Christianity in general which to my mind have never been totally satisfied, even by some very clever knowledgable theologians and professors.

I’ll take your word that you’ve done your research.

Out of curiosity, which?

 

[Kouyate42]

Ad hominem attack. It’s OK, ad hominems are the bread and butter of “argument” these days. Probably just an impulse.

But please, do not confuse individual Catholics’ behaviour with the things the Catholic Church teaches. Faith knows the Apostles nor their successors never taught persecution was righteous (even if sometimes their actions said the opposite). Eck, Peter said rightly he ought to have gone to defend and even die with Jesus, and later went to deny he even knew Jesus thrice times.

We all have blood on our hands. The question is: are the teachings correct?

Problem for me is that for much of history, these teachingd and actions weren’t just limited to a priestly or noble elite, it was often done by ‘ordinary’ Catholics also, who believed in every single word of what they said/did.

And often these actions were backed up with Biblical or Church teachings. What the Church did or taught in history has often been radically different to what is actually contained in the Gospels.

It seems historically and even now, Catholicism is so inward-looking, that anything which does not fit the Church mould is rejected. You see it here on CAF to an extent, where people seem so insistent on proving the various Protestant churches/Islam/Judaism/JWs/Mormonism wrong.

I’ll take your word that you’ve done your research.

Out of curiosity, which?

I’ll make a thread…k

 

[Merinass]

Well what brought me here is simply I like to find out what other religions are about. I had been a practicing Pagan for many years. With that said if someone wants to know more I am willing to tell more but for now I will leave it at that. I enjoyed my religion BUT…I could not help but see flaws especially when it came to good and evil. Basically most pagans ( I cannot speak for all and wouldn’t dare!) simply do not believe in ultimate good or evil. The battle between the Christian God and Satan is pretty much something pagans steer clear of as seeing as how for the most part it is considered something they have no part in. Moreover, poor behavior is seen as an entirely (again please understand I am making generalizations and this is not ‘writ and verse’ for pagans at all) a human issue. In other words ‘the devil made me do it’ does not hold water.
So, why the interest and why the conversion to Christianity two years ago? Well the more I studied world events, the more I read about the crimes being committed by people, and the type, well I couldn’t help BUT see that there is some kind of struggle between good and evil going on.
I began asking my pagan friends about what they thought and was completely shocked when they were more of a mind set that evil was merely a perception and it didn’t exist! How, with all of the heinous and in my mind diabolical crimes especially against children and animals, those that cannot defend themselves, can any person say evil does not exist?
My final straw was a few days after the BP oil spill in the Gulf. I for whatever reason (to this day I have no real opinion on why so say what you feel or believe) I picked up a bible and flipped to the book of Revelations. What I read in there was like a slap in the face and I knew beyond a doubt that we are indeed at the end of things. What I read fit so well with some of the events in recent history and part of it seemed to talk about what was on the t.v at that moment. I am fully aware that perhaps I do not understand it as I think I do…but nonetheless it got my attention.
Now…the search is on.
So in answer to your question as what attracts non-Catholics…perhaps we are heeding the call the bible speaks of. After all, I do not recall where it says it would be only from a certain group or background.

 

[MirandaRiver]

Personally I came here to learn and explore - and it seems like a nice place to get my questions answered and research things here on the forums.

I am always humbled by how lovely everyone has been to me during my time of learning. I am actually Pagan and have been for many years (including times within Druidry and initiated Wicca) but when I met someone who was Catholic it really brought this very strong yearning to learn more. And hence finding this place via google.

I stay because I am still learning, everyone has been gracious to me and I hope I have been the same to them too.

 

[Gods_Peace]

I was born and raised a Catholic. Catholic grade school and high school. Despite leaving the church in my late teens for Atheism I’ve spent alot of my spare time in my life seeking answers to why people think and believe and behave the ways that they do. Coming here is part of my search. Figured a place entitled Catholic Answers would be a great place to find answers on Catholicism.

I personally believe and behave the way I do through Love. Love is the key to all things. Love is the foundation of all things. Love is what Creates, through love God created the world. People believe in Jesus because the Holy Spirit guides them. I do feel terrible about what is going to happen to this country, because their right hand displays something very troubling. It is the sign of the beast, and we can’t expect our country to get up again. The Catholic Church has tried very hard to preserve the culture of love in society, but society is fighting against their own good. This is where the final battle takes place, I hope everyone is prepared. Choose to do what the world (society) wills, and contribute to greater evil, or you can choose to serve God, and contribute to the Eternal Good. Choose who you will server. The evil one brings eternal death, gloom, and sin. God brings eternal life, Love, and Fulfillment.

 

[TarkanAttila]

Problem for me is that for much of history, these teachingd and actions weren’t just limited to a priestly or noble elite, it was often done by ‘ordinary’ Catholics also, who believed in every single word of what they said/did.

And often these actions were backed up with Biblical or Church teachings. What the Church did or taught in history has often been radically different to what is actually contained in the Gospels.

It seems historically and even now, Catholicism is so inward-looking, that anything which does not fit the Church mould is rejected. You see it here on CAF to an extent, where people seem so insistent on proving the various Protestant churches/Islam/Judaism/JWs/Mormonism wrong.

I’ll make a thread…k

Yeah, that might be good. This sounds like a real can of worms.

 

[submariner2]

I wanted to learn more about the Church as I have been thinking about converting for some time.

Also,well, there are some rather interesting opinions on Protestantism held by some members here and I can’t stand seeing someone have a wrong idea. I like to set records straight, if that makes sense

Hi fif,

I am protestant and I have been reading the comments and I think some of the views about protestants is not entirely correct as many protestant views about Catholics are also not correct. I enjoy discussing these issues because it makes me study the bible and the history harder which I love to do.

So I try to correct any misconceptions as I can. I think understanding each other better is a good road to travel. I am not interested in converting anyone to my church because I believe we are all catholic in the true sense and each of us seek Christ in our own way and that is fine with me.

Rob

 

[englishredrose]

It seems historically and even now, Catholicism is so inward-looking, that anything which does not fit the Church mould is rejected. You see it here on CAF to an extent, where people seem so insistent on proving the various Protestant churches/Islam/Judaism/JWs/Mormonism wrong.

and that is sad and not what its supposed to be about because God made us free people and not robots and along with freedom is to be able to love God how we feel loving and worshiping God works for us and we didn’t really ought to be blocking out others if they have a different way of loving God as God gave us the capacity to be free. Free to Serve and we can be so enhanced by each other rather than told we are wrong by others

Why I am here is because when I searched after another forum closure this looked like the best one close to a previous forum. Why am I still here? To be perfectly honest I don’t know why I am still here because any church and God questions I am able to throughly ask our current priest who simply answers them for me and answers them in light of what he knows about me whereas here without meaning to be rude of anything, we scare each other beyond means sometimes if we look that bit more closely and although none of it is meant, at the moment I’d much rather ask my priest direct and get one answer rather than a range of confusing answers. But sometimes I do give feedback on other posters where i can help or at least that is the aim.

 

[Maryann_C]

Hi fif,

I am protestant and I have been reading the comments and I think some of the views about protestants is not entirely correct as many protestant views about Catholics are also not correct. I enjoy discussing these issues because it makes me study the bible and the history harder which I love to do.

So I try to correct any misconceptions as I can. I think understanding each other better is a good road to travel. I am not interested in converting anyone to my church because I believe we are all catholic in the true sense and each of us seek Christ in our own way and that is fine with me.

Rob

Unfortunately Rob, with all due respect, when one looks at the fact that there are 32,000 denominations ( to include the ones who call themselves non-denominational) and that number is growing weekly one has to ask why? Simply the answer is ;Because someone disagreed with someone’s theology or interpretation of the very same scripture. Protestants are all pretty much protesting each-other as well so it is neigh impossible to say that you can correct misconceptions about Protestants because all you can speak for is your particular denomination, Church, Pastor or even just what your particular interpretation is because there is NO one Protestant Church .

and that is sad and not what its supposed to be about because God made us free people and not robots and along with freedom is to be able to love God how we feel loving and worshiping God works for us

So if I think that I can freely love and worship God by helping the poor but I do this by freely choosing to take from the rich what is not mine to take because that ‘works for me’ would I really be loving and worshiping God? Like it or not God made us free to choose right from wrong not free to choose how we worship and love Him. Jesus is clear on this.

 

[Kouyate42]

Unfortunately Rob, with all due respect, when one looks at the fact that there are 32,000 denominations ( to include the ones who call themselves non-denominational) and that number is growing weekly one has to ask why? Simply the answer is ;Because someone disagreed with someone’s theology or interpretation of the very same scripture. Protestants are all pretty much protesting each-other as well so it is neigh impossible to say that you can correct misconceptions about Protestants because all you can speak for is your particular denomination, Church, Pastor or even just what your particular interpretation is because there is NO one Protestant Church .

No-one has ever claimed that there IS one Protestant Church. And the reason for all the denominations seems to be a particularly American problem: over here in the UK the Protestant church is mostly Anglican, Methodist, Baptist, URC.

And it cannot even be said that the Catholic Church is one whole in a true sense. There’s Eastern/Western Catholicism, plus all the issues to do with SSPX and various other offshoots. Plus there’s the whole issue of Catholicism and Orthodoxy, both of which claim to be the ‘true’ Church.

So if I think that I can freely love and worship God by helping the poor but I do this by freely choosing to take from the rich what is not mine to take because that ‘works for me’ would I really be loving and worshiping God? Like it or not God made us free to choose right from wrong not free to choose how we worship and love Him. Jesus is clear on this.

This is true.

 

[Merinass]

No-one has ever claimed that there IS one Protestant Church. And the reason for all the denominations seems to be a particularly American problem: over here in the UK the Protestant church is mostly Anglican, Methodist, Baptist, URC.

And it cannot even be said that the Catholic Church is one whole in a true sense. There’s Eastern/Western Catholicism, plus all the issues to do with SSPX and various other offshoots. Plus there’s the whole issue of Catholicism and Orthodoxy, both of which claim to be the ‘true’ Church.

This is true.

I remember when I was half the age I am now I got caught up in finding the people who had the truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth. Its was exasperating and later on disheartening.
Today I have to go with exploration but above all else working on having a REAL relationship with Christ and God (and now I am exploring Mary as well which I simply love!)
Bottom line it is the nature of things to change. Change is good and healthy/ I don’t believe that any one church or person has the 100% truth on the Divine. I do feel though that obedience and your relationship is what is more important. At the end of the day there is exactly one way to find out and that is to die and see where we go from there.

 

[mlz]

I apologize, I should have been clearer. I have empathy for people of faith. Inasmuch as people of faith may feel sad for folks who don’t have a religious bone in their body, I too feel sad for folks who do not see the difference between faith and reason.

Of course, this is a general statement, not a personal one. I do want to stay within the terms of use and not be personal.

I used to be a Catholic (of course Catholics still claim me) and I know how Catholic minds operate (generally of course). No doubt some are thinking I am here because of Yahweh!

Anyway, it was a simple answer to a direct question. And a truthful one.

Reason fits in Catholicism just read or listen online to Peter Kreeft a philosophy professor who makes the connection quite rationally I truly appreciate him. I also am amazed by amazingly clear logic in the writings of Thomas Aquinius.

May His Light shine on you,
Mlz

 

[englishredrose]

Unfortunately Rob, with all due respect, when one looks at

So if I think that I can freely love and worship God by helping the poor but I do this by freely choosing to take from the rich what is not mine to take because that ‘works for me’ would I really be loving and worshiping God? Like it or not God made us free to choose right from wrong not free to choose how we worship and love Him. Jesus is clear on this.

Yes Jesus is very clear on this I 100% agree with you there Maryann
We can all twist each others words if we want to Maryann. Fine if that is your game.
But actually God does want us to be free to love him. Not forced to love him or think we gotta follow a set of rules to love him? How we worship him and love him is a matter of choice and what is right for you mayn’t be right for me but neither of us are wrong by God. God loves us all that we do know and we are hopefully free to love him too. You are Catholic and I am Anglican so by definition not Catholic yet we are both worshipping and loving God equally correct. WE are free to love him oops but are you Catholic because I keep being told because am Anglican - C of E then I am not Catholic. So I think you find we are very close in how we worship. But we are indeed free to choose aren’t we? You wasn’t made to go to a C of E church or Lutheran. In fact you are very free to have written that as your religion. No one made you so you are as free as me in the choice you have made how you are free to love God

 

[Maryann_C]

Yes Jesus is very clear on this I 100% agree with you there Maryann
We can all twist each others words if we want to Maryann. Fine if that is your game.
But actually God does want us to be free to love him. Not forced to love him or think we gotta follow a set of rules to love him? How we worship him and love him is a matter of choice and what is right for you mayn’t be right for me but neither of us are wrong by God. God loves us all that we do know and we are hopefully free to love him too. You are Catholic and I am Anglican so by definition not Catholic yet we are both worshipping and loving God equally correct. WE are free to love him oops but are you Catholic because I keep being told because am Anglican - C of E then I am not Catholic. So I think you find we are very close in how we worship. But we are indeed free to choose aren’t we? You wasn’t made to go to a C of E church or Lutheran. In fact you are very free to have written that as your religion. No one made you so you are as free as me in the choice you have made how you are free to love God

I was not trying to twist anything just to understand exactly what you meant. Where as I agree with you that God has given us the free will to choose to love Him or not I disagree that we can show our love for God by any means we please just because we think that He would like it, which, it seemed to me, that you were saying. Perhaps I am blind and someone else can have a go at helping me understand - but perhaps we should take this to a new thread-( what shall we call it- Am I free to love God any way I see fit? in Appologetics then I will start the thread , join me.) because I fail to see how I am free to worship God in whatever way suits me? Actually as far as my loosely Lutheran upbringing …in essence that was not a free choice because it was my mother’s, I embraced the C of E freely because I didn’t know better when I finally did some real digging I had to join the only church that actually believed and teaches what Jesus teaches in John 6.

 

[mlz]

Well what brought me here is simply I like to find out what other religions are about. I had been a practicing Pagan for many years. With that said if someone wants to know more I am willing to tell more but for now I will leave it at that. I enjoyed my religion BUT…I could not help but see flaws especially when it came to good and evil. Basically most pagans ( I cannot speak for all and wouldn’t dare!) simply do not believe in ultimate good or evil. The battle between the Christian God and Satan is pretty much something pagans steer clear of as seeing as how for the most part it is considered something they have no part in. Moreover, poor behavior is seen as an entirely (again please understand I am making generalizations and this is not ‘writ and verse’ for pagans at all) a human issue. In other words ‘the devil made me do it’ does not hold water.
So, why the interest and why the conversion to Christianity two years ago? Well the more I studied world events, the more I read about the crimes being committed by people, and the type, well I couldn’t help BUT see that there is some kind of struggle between good and evil going on.
I began asking my pagan friends about what they thought and was completely shocked when they were more of a mind set that evil was merely a perception and it didn’t exist! How, with all of the heinous and in my mind diabolical crimes especially against children and animals, those that cannot defend themselves, can any person say evil does not exist?
My final straw was a few days after the BP oil spill in the Gulf. I for whatever reason (to this day I have no real opinion on why so say what you feel or believe) I picked up a bible and flipped to the book of Revelations. What I read in there was like a slap in the face and I knew beyond a doubt that we are indeed at the end of things. What I read fit so well with some of the events in recent history and part of it seemed to talk about what was on the t.v at that moment. I am fully aware that perhaps I do not understand it as I think I do…but nonetheless it got my attention.
Now…the search is on.
So in answer to your question as what attracts non-Catholics…perhaps we are heeding the call the bible speaks of. After all, I do not recall where it says it would be only from a certain group or background.

Welcome on the journey. If you truly seek Truth you will find.
My prayers and encouragement.
mlz

 

[Petergee]

Problem for me is that for much of history, these teachingd and actions weren’t just limited to a priestly or noble elite, it was often done by ‘ordinary’ Catholics also, who believed in every single word of what they said/did.

And often these actions were backed up with Biblical or Church teachings. What the Church did or taught in history has often been radically different to what is actually contained in the Gospels.

It seems historically and even now, Catholicism is so inward-looking, that anything which does not fit the Church mould is rejected. You see it here on CAF to an extent, where people seem so insistent on proving the various Protestant churches/Islam/Judaism/JWs/Mormonism wrong.

I’ll make a thread…k

Well it’s a catch-22 situation.

If you DON’T believe that the Catholic Church has the fulness of the Truth given to her by God Himself, and if you don’t believe that it is reasonable or even plausible for Catholics to even think that that MIGHT be true, then for Catholics to claim this and to tehrefore measure every other claim to truth by seeing whether and to what extent it agrees with the Divinely revealed doctrines of the Church, seems incredibly arrogant, pompous and patronising.

But as St Paul said, we do not boast for ourselves, but only in the Lord. We don’t think taht we are smarter than non-Catholics. We simply believe that God has given our Church and her leaders the fulness of the truth. All other religions and religious positions (atheism, agnosticism etc) also believe that they have the fulness of the truth and that everyone else is wrong to the extent that they vary from this. Just that these days you notice it more from Catholics because the Catholic Church unlike many others has not given in to the nonsensical relativistic claim that there can be two or more “truths” which contradict each other. Common sense tells us, truth cannot contradict truth.

As for what “the Church” did to Jews and Moslems, come on have you studied serious histiory written by thiose without a barrow to push? As mentioned, the Church has never endorsed and often condemned persecution of non-Christians, this was done by individuals who disobeyed the Church’s commands. Contrary to popular myth, the Church’s inquisitions NEVER investigated, much less prosecuted or punished, Jews or Moslems. By definition they had jurisdiction over baptised Christians only.

The Papal States (for centuries one of the larger countries in Europe, now reduced to the Vatican City State after 99.9% of its territory was forcibly stolen) the only country where the Chruch actually had real temporal power, for centuries was the world’s foremost haven for Jews where they were treated more liberally than anywhere else and whence they fled from many other countries where they were persecuted (for example Jews were totally prohibited from England in Tudor, early Stuart, and Cromwellian times, and the ban wasn’t lifted until the crypto-Catholic Charles II. )
As for Moslems, the boot was almost entirely on the other foot regarding persecutions. The Moslems conquered there quarters of the then territory of Christendom, leaving only a few mostly sparsely populated and materially impoverished countries. In the lands they conquesred they began a systematic campaign of persecution which continues to this day and has resulted in those countries now being overwhelmingly Moslem. Sooner or later Christians had to fight back or Christianity would have totally disappeard. The Crusades and simalr represented by comparison only very small and mostly temporary setbacks to the millennium long history of Moslem war, conquest and subjugation and persecution of Christians.

 

[Petergee]

No-one has ever claimed that there IS one Protestant Church. And the reason for all the denominations seems to be a particularly American problem: over here in the UK the Protestant church is mostly Anglican, Methodist, Baptist, URC.

Not at all. It was in England that the really serious multiplication of denominations started, and then spread to the USA, and now the whole world. Napoleon famously sneered at England as " a land of a thousand religions, and only one sauce".

And it cannot even be said that the Catholic Church is one whole in a true sense. There’s Eastern/Western Catholicism, plus all the issues to do with SSPX and various other offshoots. Plus there’s the whole issue of Catholicism and Orthodoxy, both of which claim to be the ‘true’ Church.

This is true.

{/quote]Eastern and Western Catholic Churches differ only in liturgy and giovernance/. Their doctrines are EXACTLY the same. There is no such thing as Eastern Catholciism or Western Catholicism, there is only one Catholicism.

The SSPX claim (depending which member you speak to) to be either the sole remaining true Catholic church, or to be part of it. Just the same as protestant churches claim to be. They of course are all offshoots of the Catholic church too, or offshoots of offshoots …etc. The SSPX must pretty soon now either clarify that they are part of the Church and accept the pope’s authority or split completely.

Yeah the Eastern Orthodox claim to be the true church too, so what? so do the protestatnt churches. Only EO doctrines include 99% of the Catholic doctrines and vice versa.

 

[Credo_ergo_sum]

and am curious as to what brought you to CAF?

The search for the Truth.

 

[Kouyate42]

Well it’s a catch-22 situation.

If you DON’T believe that the Catholic Church has the fulness of the Truth given to her by God Himself, and if you don’t believe that it is reasonable or even plausible for Catholics to even think that that MIGHT be true, then for Catholics to claim this and to tehrefore measure every other claim to truth by seeing whether and to what extent it agrees with the Divinely revealed doctrines of the Church, seems incredibly arrogant, pompous and patronising.

I don’t believe the Church has the full truth, at least not from the faith position I’m currently at, but this may change with time and study. But what I do believe is that there is SOME truth in Catholicism.

But as St Paul said, we do not boast for ourselves, but only in the Lord. We don’t think taht we are smarter than non-Catholics. We simply believe that God has given our Church and her leaders the fulness of the truth. All other religions and religious positions (atheism, agnosticism etc) also believe that they have the fulness of the truth and that everyone else is wrong to the extent that they vary from this. **Just that these days you notice it more from Catholics because the Catholic Church unlike many others has not given in to the nonsensical relativistic claim that there can be two or more “truths” which contradict each other. Common sense tells us, truth cannot contradict truth.
**

Problem is that too many Catholics are unwilling to discuss or debate with other groups, or if they do, it’s a one-way process where they cry out ‘my opinion is right, LALALALALALALALALALALA’ until the other side stops talking. No need to justify that position or explain it.

Now I come from an Islamic background, and yes, Islam teaches something similar to the ‘truth is what it is, no changing it’ but for me the critical difference is that Muslims are fully prepared to engage with and discuss their side, whilst still holding to it. When I was still attending church, questions were disliked. Now I attend mosque, I can ask a question and it is answered.

As for what “the Church” did to Jews and Moslems, come on have you studied serious histiory written by thiose without a barrow to push? As mentioned, the Church has never endorsed and often condemned persecution of non-Christians, this was done by individuals who disobeyed the Church’s commands. Contrary to popular myth, the Church’s inquisitions NEVER investigated, much less prosecuted or punished, Jews or Moslems. By definition they had jurisdiction over baptised Christians only.

So please explain to me the massive propoganda war in the pre-medieval and medieval periods which saw all sorts of accusations flung at Muslims for no other reason than guilt at what the supposedly Christian West was doing, including accusations of pedophilia by the Prophet (saw), rape, murder of civilians and widespread pillaging?

To answer your question you ask in the first sentence, I've studied many sources, including those written by Muslims and Christians, as well as more secular/atheist sources, and it keeps coming back to the same conclusion I have already made. The Catholic and Christian churches dirtied the name of Islam, resulting in the hatred Muslims have to put up with even today.

The Papal States (for centuries one of the larger countries in Europe, now reduced to the Vatican City State after 99.9% of its territory was forcibly stolen) the only country where the Chruch actually had real temporal power, for centuries was the world’s foremost haven for Jews where they were treated more liberally than anywhere else and whence they fled from many other countries where they were persecuted (for example Jews were totally prohibited from England in Tudor, early Stuart, and Cromwellian times, and the ban wasn’t lifted until the crypto-Catholic Charles II. )

You mean the same Church which actively called Jews ‘Christ-killers’ until recently?

Try reading this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_antisemitism

Also, this same church in Italy often robbed Jewish parents of their children based on the often covert baptisms of Jewish children by servants and housemaids, with the flimsy pretext of Papal law making it legal for the state to do so.

As for Moslems, the boot was almost entirely on the other foot regarding persecutions. The Moslems conquered there quarters of the then territory of Christendom, leaving only a few mostly sparsely populated and materially impoverished countries. In the lands they conquesred they began a systematic campaign of persecution which continues to this day and has resulted in those countries now being overwhelmingly Moslem. Sooner or later Christians had to fight back or Christianity would have totally disappeard. The Crusades and simalr represented by comparison only very small and mostly temporary setbacks to the millennium long history of Moslem war, conquest and subjugation and persecution of Christians.

Ever considered the widely-known theory that Catholicism helped create the beast of Islamic fundamentalism by upsetting tribal and group alliances many Muslim groups had at the time, which ensured peace?

As to this other stuff, I’ll have to take your word for it for now and read up, as my history beyond about 800AD isn’t great.

 

[Zenkai]

I came to this forum a while ago to learn more about Catholicism. I am currently contemplating about starting RCIA.